The Obamamobile: Drive as I say, not as I drive

By Michelle Malkin  •  November 23, 2008 04:46 PM

Well, who is surprised by this story about the “monster gas-guzzling” Obamamobile? Once a Drive as I Say-er, always a Drive as I Say-er:

On the campaign trail, Barack Obama promised to get a million plug-in hybrid cars on the road by 2015. His own new presidential limousine will be far from green, however.

The Obamobile being prepared for the president-elect is said to be a monster gas-guzzler made by General Motors, the troubled car giant. It will look like a black Cadillac but is built like a tank. A spy photographer who tracks down future car models for magazines snatched pictures of the heavily disguised first-car-in-waiting when it was being road-tested last summer.

The armour-plated car, which has a raised roof, windows up to 5in thick, extra-strength tyres and a body made of steel, aluminium, titanium and ceramics, is thought to be based on a GMC 2500 truck that gets less than 10 miles to the gallon. Three cars are believed to be in production so that two can serve as decoys.

While security is paramount – the car is built to survive roadside bombs as well as gunfire – there are hybrid four-wheel drives on the market, such as Ford’s Mercury Mariner, which some critics believe could have been adapted for the president.

(link)

Obama’s eco-hypocrisy emission standard: Still high.

***

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Comments


  1. #555045
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 9:13 pm, BlameAmericaLast said:

    But they choose to, and you libs are all about choice, right?

    They’re only in favor of their choice. They know better, don’t you know? They want to tell all of us what’s good for us and how we should live our lives. How we eat, smoke or drink. Just like the nanny state I live in now. CA.

  2. #555046
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 9:21 pm, hunter said:

    They’re only in favor of their choice. They know better, don’t you know? They want to tell all of us what’s good for us and how we should live our lives. How we eat, smoke or drink. Just like the nanny state I live in now. CA.

    I just had a thought, both parties reps. think they know more than their constituents. Don’t we already have enough laws on the books, at least for the next 5 to 10 years?

    Maybe it is time to shutter congress. Imagine the money saved over the next 5 – 10 years if there was no campaiging traveling, salaries, support staff. What are these people really doing for the country?

    I would guess that there are enough laws on the books that if we shut down the House and Senate for 10 years we would survive just fine. Most of the people in these positions are basically just looking out for themselves and not the people they represent anyway.

  3. #555047
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 9:22 pm, Flyoverman said:

    This story should never have been posted. The people responsible for a President Elect’s safety make the call on his transportation.

    Got back one day to Saturday. Then go back 45 years from that Saturday. No president has driven in an open limosine ever since.

    I have had to live through watch the President literally have his head blown off. I’d like to think it’s never going to happen again, no matter who is the President.

    We have a lot of important legitimate issues to confront Barrack Obama on. We marginalize ourselves if we spend time whining about the fact the vehicle designed to keep him alive guzzles gas. It makes sound like Watershed from the Right. It is embarrassing.

  4. #555053
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 9:39 pm, Speakup said:

    After Harry Truman, no liberal Pres. has been anything but a class A snob, Obama has already proven himself to be very arrogant don’t expect him to be any less holier than thou after his coronation and cruising around in a globe killing car doesn’t do anything to dispel that perception.

  5. #555055
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 9:47 pm, FilmLadd said:

    On November 23rd, 2008 at 9:39 pm, Speakup said:

    After Harry Truman, no liberal Pres. has been anything but a class A snob…

    Well, there’s a lot I disliked about JFK but he didn’t come across as a snob. Time spent in the Army in WWII, I think, knocked the Kennedy snobbiness out of him…

    Too bad his youngest brother missed out on the big War and inherited the worst snobby and thuggy traits of his father.

  6. #555061
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 9:59 pm, ajmontana said:

    *****FOUND*****
    The perfect Odopeymobile!!!

  7. #555065
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:05 pm, PBoilermaker said:

    Time spent in the Army in WWII, I think, knocked the Kennedy snobbiness out of him…

    Navy.

  8. #555069
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:11 pm, ITookTheRedPill said:

    The man who described the Arabic call to prayer as…

    one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset

    and confessed with a first-rate accent…

    Allah is The Greatest
    I bear witness that there is no deity except Allah
    I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah

    (those being the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer)
    but who has not confessed with his mouth…

    Jesus is Lord

    The man who wrote the book…

    Assault Hope: From Jakarta to the White House

    The man who said…

    But my journey is part of a larger journey – one shared by all who’ve ever sought to apply the values of their faith to … bring an Empire to its knees.

    Has not proven that he meets the Contitutional Presidential eligibilty requirement of being a Natural Born citizen!

    His Hawaiian “Certification of Live Birth” is a fraud.

    His paternal grandmother says he was born in Kenya.

    Regardless of where he was born, his father’s British citizenship made him a dual citizen (with divided loyalties that the “Natural Born Citizen” requirement was designed to prevent).

    It appears that he was adopted by his step-father Lolo Soetoro and gave up whatever citizenship he had to become an Indonesian citizen. He was registered in school in Indonesia as “Barry Soetoro” with citizenship: Indonesia and religion: Islam.

    Why is this not being given more attention by MM and HotAir?

    It matters a whole lot more than what car he is driven around in!

  9. #555070
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:14 pm, ITookTheRedPill said:
  10. #555071
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:16 pm, Wes S. said:

    Obama’s being chauffered around in an armored limo while President isn’t what bothers me. I remember back during the campaign (June?) it was revealed that the Obamas’ personal car was a Chrysler 300C sedan with the hemi engine. When that was revealed – and contrasted with his “green” message – Obama allegedly traded it in on a Lexus hybrid SUV that cost far more than the average American family can afford. Some “sacrifice,” huh?

    Note that Obama only started “practicing what he preached” when somebody called him on it. And did so in a way that only reinforces the notion that he’s better than the rest of us.

    So I’d say his choice of car is fair game, huh? Especially given all the dirty tricks, trumped-up scandals and slander he and his campaign have thrown our way…

  11. #555072
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:17 pm, Digshot said:

    When it was politically expedient for them. They then turned around, claimed they were lied to

    Should have stopped right there. You think I’m going to dispute that? I’m not. You think I want to defend Democrats in Congress over the past 8 years? I don’t. But yeah, you should have stopped here.

  12. #555073
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:20 pm, BOB said:

    Has not proven that he meets the Contitutional Presidential eligibilty requirement of being a Natural Born citizen!

    His Hawaiian “Certification of Live Birth” is a fraud.

    His paternal grandmother says he was born in Kenya.

    Regardless of where he was born, his father’s British citizenship made him a dual citizen (with divided loyalties that the “Natural Born Citizen” requirement was designed to prevent).

    It appears that he was adopted by his step-father Lolo Soetoro and gave up whatever citizenship he had to become an Indonesian citizen. He was registered in school in Indonesia as “Barry Soetoro” with citizenship: Indonesia and religion: Islam.

    Why is this not being given more attention by MM and HotAir?

    It matters a whole lot more than what car he is driven around in!

    I agree, amazing how this doesn’t seem to matter. It’s almost certain the reason his college papers, admission forms, etc., haven’t been released is because they would reveal citizenship other than US, and possibly the source of the money he used to attend college. It’s not because he was a dummy in college that this information is being withheld, it’s much more important than that.

  13. #555074
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:22 pm, Digshot said:

    I don’t know you, but good Lord you have no knowledege of actual facts, and you are blindly followiung.

    Say something about it then. Explain to me what your problem is.

    By definition, you are ignorant, and before you get all up in arms about me calling you that, look up the definition of the word. It defines you.

    Why would I get up in arms over it? Who cares what you think? Let’s see if you want to actually talk about something before we start assessing each others’ personalities.

  14. #555077
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:27 pm, FilmLadd said:

    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:05 pm, PBoilermaker said:

    Time spent in the Army in WWII, I think, knocked the Kennedy snobbiness out of him…

    Navy.

    I should stop posting when I am tired. Hell, I just saw PT 109.

  15. #555078
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:30 pm, frontierguy said:

    I agree, amazing how this doesn’t seem to matter. It’s almost certain the reason his college papers, admission forms, etc., haven’t been released is because they would reveal citizenship other than US, and possibly the source of the money he used to attend college. It’s not because he was a dummy in college that this information is being withheld, it’s much more important than that.

    True and it seems the courts are playing the, I’m not going to be the one to shine any possible light on this and be responsible for the riots that will surely ensue game. It seems impossible that rule of law is trumped by image today, but sadly is not so.

  16. #555081
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:34 pm, ITookTheRedPill said:

    Barack Hussein Obama II’s father was a British citizen at the time of Barack Hussein Obama II’s birth.

    That means the candidate known as Barack Hussein Obama II (also known as Indonesian citizen Barry Soetoro), was, at his birth, not a Natural born citizen of the United States, but rather a Natural-born subject of the crown of England.

  17. #555082
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:39 pm, Digshot said:

    Spying on American citizens you are referring to FISA…let’s see, Clinton used that one too. If you are calling people in Iran for example, yeah, I want you listened to. I have no problem with that. The media only became insane when Bush used it.

    Yes, exactly. “You have no problem with that.” You don’t care if George Bush breaks laws. So he does it. And you have no problem with it.

    Torture, hmmmm…waterboarding on detainees when the evidence points to the fact that they know information. Like when floorplans of some of American middle schools were found in Afghanistan possessed by Al Queda members. Sorry, but I put American kids over terrorist scum.

    Heh. Liberals want to talk about torture, conservatives want to talk about waterboarding. Because that’s all we’ve done, right? Two or three times, tops, right? Sure. Soon you’ll be trying to pass off Abu Graihb as a couple of bad apples.

    Oh wait.

    Your “criticism” is based only on your judgement given to you by the media, i see.

    Another example of a conservative believing as foundational the exact opposite of what is true. I’m sure you don’t think of yourself in that way, but maybe you should.

  18. #555083
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:39 pm, frontierguy said:

    Not just who financed BHO’s college tuition, I would love to see where all of his campaign money came from. I would bet a great portion of the money came from entities who have sworn deadly attacks against the U.S.

  19. #555084
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:44 pm, frontierguy said:

    dig, i have worked for the federal government for over 12 years, i know these people…how long have you worked for the government? These are people that have families, have donated off duty time to build parks and play soccer with local Iraqi and Afghan kids. Please tell me how long you have worked for the government and how many government workers you know and how evil they are. Yeah, Abu Ghraib was an embarrassment, they were punished, they were a few reservist who behaved like they were at a hazing party. Give me all of your examples of those evil government workers that you know. Those guys who love to torture…seriously guy, lay off some of the Hollywood koolaid. Loon.

  20. #555085
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:44 pm, ITookTheRedPill said:

    Allegiance, both express and implied, is however distinguished by the law into two sorts or species, the one natural, the other local; the former being also perpetual, the latter temporary. Natural allegiance is such as is due from all men born within the king’s dominions immediately upon their birth. For, immediately upon their birth, they are under the king’s protection; at a time too, when (during their infancy) they are incapable of protecting themselves.

    Natural allegiance is therefore a debt of gratitude; which cannot be forfeited, cancelled, or altered, by any change of time, place, or circumstance, nor by any thing but the united concurrence of the legislature. An Englishman who removes to France, or to China, owes the same allegiance to the king of England there as at home, and twenty years hence as well as now. For it is a principle of universal law, that the natural-born subject of one prince cannot by any act of his own, no, not by swearing allegiance to another, put off or discharge his natural allegiance to the former: for this natural allegiance was intrinsic, and primitive, and antecedent to the other; and cannot be devested without the concurrent act of that prince to whom it was first due. Indeed the natural-born subject of one prince, to whom he owes allegiance, may be entangled by subjecting himself absolutely to another; but it is his own act that brings him into these straits and difficulties, of owing service to two masters; and it is unreasonable that, by such voluntary act of his own, he should be able at pleasure to unloose those bands, by which he is connected to his natural prince.

  21. #555086
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:44 pm, Silkyinfamous said:

    Again, tabloid news. Do we really want the President of the US driving around unprotected?

    I know some in here would, but it aint happening.

  22. #555088
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:49 pm, ITookTheRedPill said:

    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:44 pm, Silkyinfamous said:

    Again, tabloid news. Do we really want the President of the US driving around unprotected?

    Do we really want the President of the US to be someone who is not Constitutionally eligible?

    Especially one who writes of his Hope to bring Assault from Jakarta to the White House and “bring an Empire to its knees“?

  23. #555091
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:55 pm, frontierguy said:

    Oh yeah, dig, BHO has said, FISA remains intact, he needs that ability and he is not going to seek charges against all those torturing Agents we have. So I expect you to start criticizing your boy now.

  24. #555094
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:59 pm, TomB said:

    Presidents used to ride in open-top limos, until JFK. A repeat of that would not help anyone, so let him ride in a tank. Also, the quoted article says it was being road-tested last summer. That was before Obama was elected, so he probably didn’t have anything to do with choosing the vehicle. That’s probably a Secret Service call anyway, and they don’t really care what we think about it. And they shouldn’t care. I find it a hopeful sign that at least the Secret Service hasn’t bought into the green madness.

    This story is noise, there are substantive issues to discuss – like where Mr. Obama was born and whether he’s going to be as dangerously radical as feared.

  25. #555096
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:04 pm, AlohaGuy said:

    Spying on American citizens you are referring to FISA…

    Yes, exactly. “You have no problem with that.” You don’t care if George Bush breaks laws. …

    Since FISA is law, and the Patriot Act which enlarged it is law, what you are saying makes no sense. If Bush acted within the law – how could he be breaking the law? Oh, yeah – you’re a lib…

  26. #555097
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:04 pm, frontierguy said:

    Another example of a conservative believing as foundational the exact opposite of what is true. I’m sure you don’t think of yourself in that way, but maybe you should.

    your right, i do not see myself that way, i had experience in bosnia and afghanistan, had relatives in iraq…what experience you got? i’m betting none. monday morning quarterback, been nowhere, done nothing, but listening to msnbc you have all the answers. dolt.

  27. #555098
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:05 pm, Digshot said:

    dig, i have worked for the federal government for over 12 years, i know these people…how long have you worked for the government? These are people that have families, have donated off duty time to build parks and play soccer with local Iraqi and Afghan kids. Please tell me how long you have worked for the government and how many government workers you know and how evil they are. Yeah, Abu Ghraib was an embarrassment, they were punished, they were a few reservist who behaved like they were at a hazing party. Give me all of your examples of those evil government workers that you know. Those guys who love to torture…seriously guy, lay off some of the Hollywood koolaid. Loon.

    Huh? You think I’m mad at ‘government workers?’ What?

  28. #555099
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:06 pm, FilmLadd said:

    Will there be an ashtray in the Obamabile?

  29. #555101
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:09 pm, FilmLadd said:

    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:05 pm, Digshot said:

    Huh? You think I’m mad at ‘government workers?’ What?

    Usually you come in, drop a comment or two and then disappear. Now very loquacious. What’s up with that? Did ACORN lay you off post-election?

  30. #555102
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:10 pm, Digshot said:

    your right, i do not see myself that way, i had experience in bosnia and afghanistan, had relatives in iraq…what experience you got? i’m betting none. monday morning quarterback, been nowhere, done nothing, but listening to msnbc you have all the answers. dolt.

    I’ve been right about George Bush every step of the way. And you voted for him…. how many times?

  31. #555105
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:13 pm, frontierguy said:

    Huh? You think I’m mad at ‘government workers?’ What?

    You think interragators torture at will…you think that since they have the power, they certainly must abuse it and love their jobs. You think they have no oversight or missions are not carefully planned. Actually, who cares what you think, you don’t know anything, why you voted for Obama, we all saw the videos of the moronic voters. Empty headed, know nothing, been nowhere…that’s you dig.

  32. #555108
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:16 pm, frontierguy said:

    I’ve been right about George Bush every step of the way. And you voted for him…. how many times?

    Good comeback….ooooh, you got me.

  33. #555110
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:20 pm, AlohaGuy said:

    It has a cool horn though – sort of like those WWII subs.

    Aaarrruuuuugalaaa.

  34. #555116
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:50 pm, Digshot said:

    You think interragators torture at will…you think that since they have the power, they certainly must abuse it and love their jobs. You think they have no oversight or missions are not carefully planned.

    It’s not the interrogators that I’m worried about, it’s the people issuing the orders to the interrogators. The people that made lawlessness and torture official policy of the United States government. That’s a small group of people. If you think I want to run through the entirety of the bureaucracy purging the rank-and-filers because of what George Bush did, you’re wrong. But someone has to take the fall, don’t they?

  35. #555126
    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:59 pm, frontierguy said:

    BHO is not going to go after the interrogators. He already said so and he is keeping FISA intact. I guess those top level government people must know stuff we don’t. My e-mail has an Agent friend of mine who is inviting me to Thanksgiving, sure hope I don’t get tortured if I don’t like the green bean casserole or something, since its policy and all.

  36. #555149
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:06 am, ironman said:

    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:50 pm, Digshot said:

    Just asking out of curiosity…..do you think the 9/11 attacks were done by Arab terrorists or was it an inside job instigated by Bush/Cheney?

  37. #555169
    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:02 am, pgtips said:

    Just asking out of curiosity…..do you think the 9/11 attacks were done by Arab terrorists or was it an inside job instigated by Bush/Cheney

    It was Bush/Cheney and the evil Zionist machine of course. Oh and Elvis too!

  38. #555180
    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:31 am, ITookTheRedPill said:
  39. #555196
    On November 24th, 2008 at 5:35 am, PBoilermaker said:

    On November 23rd, 2008 at 10:17 pm, Digshot said:
    Should have stopped right there. You think I’m going to dispute that? I’m not. You think I want to defend Democrats in Congress over the past 8 years? I don’t. But yeah, you should have stopped here.

    My, how foreboding. You certainly left that hanging like a fart in the middle of the room.

    Be careful. If you keep talking like that you might scare someone.

  40. #555306
    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:42 am, Digshot said:

    Just asking out of curiosity…..do you think the 9/11 attacks were done by Arab terrorists or was it an inside job instigated by Bush/Cheney?

    It was Arab terrorists, and anyone that thinks Bush and Cheney had something to do with it are morons. That said, we learned after 9-11 that George Bush is one of the least capable people on the planet. I wouldn’t trust George Bush to do anything, least of all effectively deflecting terror attacks. He’s too stupid, he’s too lazy, and he’s too self-centered to be President and have the kinds of responsibilities he has, it’s simple as that. If Al Gore were President, 9-11 wouldn’t have happened.

  41. #555308
    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:43 am, Digshot said:

    My, how foreboding. You certainly left that hanging like a fart in the middle of the room.

    Be careful. If you keep talking like that you might scare someone.

    What’s your problem?

  42. #555312
    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:45 am, hayroller15 said:

    If Obama can have a car that best protects him and his family, shouldn’t I be able to choose one that does the same for mine? This is the problem with liberal elitest,they think they are better than everyone else because of what job they hold. This man and no other man comes before my families safety.You liberals who laugh at poking the nest may pay a cost much higher than you can imagine.

  43. #555317
    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:49 am, 30 pcs of silver said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:42 am, Digshot said:
    If Al Gore were President, 9-11 wouldn’t have happened.

    What little credibility you had – you can now kiss goodbye. How can you make such a claim? Rhetorical.

  44. #555323
    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:56 am, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:42 am, Digshot said:

    If Al Gore were President, 9-11 wouldn’t have happened.

    What makes you think this?

  45. #555326
    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:00 am, corkie said:

    On November 23rd, 2008 at 11:50 pm, Digshot said:

    The people that made lawlessness and torture official policy of the United States government.

    It’s quite obvious that you’ve never planned an operation or worked for any bureaucratic entity.

    Your comments are incredibly naive. But let me guess – you read the NY Times.

  46. #555346
    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:16 am, DBNinKY said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:49 am, 30 pcs of silver said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:42 am, Digshot said:
    If Al Gore were President, 9-11 wouldn’t have happened.

    What little credibility you had – you can now kiss goodbye. How can you make such a claim? Rhetorical.

    Dig Shot, 30 is right – that statement makes it hard to take you seriously, on anything, from here on out!

  47. #555350
    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:18 am, Digshot said:

    What little credibility you had – you can now kiss goodbye. How can you make such a claim? Rhetorical.

    I don’t care what a Republican has to say about my credibility. Could that be any more of a joke?

    If you think 9-11 was some pre-determined event that would have happened regardless of who was in charge of the country, you’re really just excusing George Bush. You don’t think a better President could have stopped 9-11, as opposed to, say, going on vacation for a month at a time?

  48. #555354
    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:19 am, PBoilermaker said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 9:43 am, Digshot said:
    What’s your problem?

    You and your absurd posts, of course.

  49. #555368
    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:27 am, Digshot said:

    It’s quite obvious that you’ve never planned an operation or worked for any bureaucratic entity.

    Your comments are incredibly naive. But let me guess – you read the NY Times.

    What are you even talking about? I need bureaucratic planning experience to criticize Bush’s torture policy?

    Make sense, please.

  50. #555382
    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:35 am, rocketman said:

    The president’s car really needs to have the full armor treatment–regardless of cost / gas mileage. There are probably 50 nut cases gunning / bombing for him (and any other “celebrities”) at any moment–the Pope, Larry Flint, President Reagan, President Ford, etc. Keep the tragic assassination of President Kennedy in mind–NO MAS!

    John Bibb

  51. #555389
    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:43 am, right4life said:

    I need bureaucratic planning experience to criticize Bush’s torture policy?

    1) its not torture
    2) too bad he didn’t torture them, they deserve it.
    3) after the interrogation, they should be shot, just like your hero FDR did to german SPIES in NJ.

  52. #555408
    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:58 am, Digshot said:

    1) its not torture
    2) too bad he didn’t torture them, they deserve it.
    3) after the interrogation, they should be shot, just like your hero FDR did to german SPIES in NJ.

    Man, you are in this for life, aren’t you?

  53. #555431
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:12 am, right4life said:

    Man, you are in this for life, aren’t you?

    I’m into the truth. you’re not, you’re a liberal. its obvious. :roll:

    so were OK with FDR capturing interrogating (read torturing) and killing those german spies??

  54. #555433
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:13 am, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:27 am, Digshot said:

    I need bureaucratic planning experience to criticize Bush’s torture policy?

    Of course not. Anyone can criticize anyone. A 5th grader can criticize Bush. As you can imagine, they might not sound intelligent or experienced doing so.

    BTW, I stated ‘planned an operation OR worked for any bureaucratic entity. It’s strange that you combined the two.’

  55. #555434
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:13 am, right4life said:

    btw: you never did tell me in the other thread what was going to take the place of oil??

  56. #555444
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:15 am, right4life said:

    oh and here is your new attorney general on whether your heroes at club gitmo are POWs..

    One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.
    It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.

    hope and change baby!! :roll: :P

  57. #555448
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:18 am, Digshot said:

    Of course not. Anyone can criticize anyone. A 5th grader can criticize Bush. As you can imagine, they might not sound intelligent or experienced doing so.

    BTW, I stated ‘planned an operation OR worked for any bureaucratic entity. It’s strange that you combined the two.’

    So what about planning a bureaucratic operation would give me more credibility as a critic of Bush’s torture policies?

    You still don’t make any sense.

  58. #555449
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:18 am, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:18 am, Digshot said:

    If you think 9-11 was some pre-determined event that would have happened regardless of who was in charge of the country, you’re really just excusing George Bush.

    Excusing Bush???? What the heck does that mean???? Is that kinda like I’m excusing Clinton by stating that the first attack on the World Trade Center probably would have occurred regardless of who was in charge of the country?????

    You don’t think a better President could have stopped 9-11, as opposed to, say, going on vacation for a month at a time?

    Please explain what Gore would have done to prevent the attacks on Sept 11. I can’t wait to read this.

  59. #555456
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:20 am, DBNinKY said:

    You don’t think a better President could have stopped 9-11, as opposed to, say, going on vacation for a month at a time?

    Prey tell, what was Clinton preoccupied with when our national intelligence agencies, as well as those of other nations, were giving him warning after warning about OBL’s plans for “something big?”

  60. #555474
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:28 am, Digshot said:

    Prey tell, what was Clinton preoccupied with when our national intelligence agencies, as well as those of other nations, were giving him warning after warning about OBL’s plans for “something big?”

    What about the warning those national intelligence agencies gave George Bush, one month before the attack, about Obama’s specific plan to hijack an airliner?

    You know what Bush was preoccupied with then? Golf.

  61. #555488
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:32 am, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:18 am, Digshot said:

    So what about planning a bureaucratic operation would give me more credibility as a critic of Bush’s torture policies?

    Why do you continue to use bureaucratic as an adjective for operation? Please reread my statements.

    Every Monday morning, all of my friends are allowed to criticize certain football teams. Most people respect the ones which criticize a team with thoughtful analysis based on some sort of experience.

    The guys that say, ‘They threw the balls really really bad’ don’t usually add much to the discussion.

    Along the same lines, anyone who characterizes a complex program executed by government employees that might even share quite a few of your ideals (as alluded to in this thread) as ‘making lawlessness and torture official policy of the United States government’ shows quite a lack of sophistication.

    Even the NY Times did a better hit job than you. Or was the NY Times just trying to cover for the Bush administration?

  62. #555499
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:35 am, Salt said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:28 am, Digshot said:

    Prey tell, what was Clinton preoccupied with when our national intelligence agencies, as well as those of other nations, were giving him warning after warning about OBL’s plans for “something big?”

    What about the warning those national intelligence agencies gave George Bush, one month before the attack, about Obama’s specific plan to hijack an airliner?

    You know what Bush was preoccupied with then? Golf.

    There were many terrorists attacks while President Clinton was in office as well. There’s quite a list, actually. Al Gore’s “prescience” did not seem to help President Clinton much.

    Besides which, arguing would have been is pointless. You have no means to prove such a statement while you also ignore the fact that there has not been another terrorist attack since… when?

  63. #555503
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:36 am, right4life said:

    Bush, one month before the attack, about Obama’s specific plan to hijack an airliner?

    BS.

    President Bush’s daily intelligence briefings in the weeks leading up to the September 11 terror attacks included a warning of the possibility that Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda network would attempt to hijack a U.S.-based airliner, senior administration officials said Wednesday.

    But, the officials said, there was no speculation about the use of an airplane itself as a bomb or a weapon, and no specific, credible information about the possibility of a hijacking of any sort.

    link

    its like sayin bin-laden is trying to hit the US :roll:

  64. #555513
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:39 am, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:28 am, Digshot said:

    What about the warning those national intelligence agencies gave George Bush, one month before the attack, about Obama’s specific plan to hijack an airliner?

    BINGO!!!

    Hey Einstein, first, I think you mean Osama not Obama.

    Second, if you’ve ever worked with intelligence, then you know that it’s like trying to put a big puzzle together with thousands of pieces. The game the media LOVES to play is to roll out the one little piece (out of thousands) which described, without specifics, some sort of threat. They do this even if the little piece wasn’t part of any other trend or corroboration.

    Apparently you like to play this cheap game, also.

    Someone with any experience wouldn’t make such a simpleton statement.

  65. #555514
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:40 am, Digshot said:

    Please explain what Gore would have done to prevent the attacks on Sept 11. I can’t wait to read this.

    It doesn’t have to be Gore, it could be anyone. The fact that you won’t even allow yourself to entertain the idea that someone smarter or more cunning than George Bush might have been able to do something about 9-11 is probably representative of how fiercely loyal the conservative movement remains to George Bush, even as small, insignificant squirts of dissent that are more about political survival than anything else start becoming more frequent. George Bush has become one of the biggest jokes in American history, and still conservatives can’t willfully divorce themselves of that relationship with him. When you guys commit, you commit blindly and extremely hard. Bush has failed massively on every issue where he’s tried his hand, and protecting the country from terror attacks is no different. He failed, because he’s a failure.

  66. #555524
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:43 am, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:40 am, Digshot said:

    It doesn’t have to be Gore, it could be anyone.

    OK, fine. Then please explain the steps that this “anyone” would have taken to prevent the attacks.

  67. #555525
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:43 am, Salt said:

    …how did a thread about the new Presidential limo turn into a 9/11 anti-Bush tirade?

  68. #555528
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:45 am, Digshot said:

    Why do you continue to use bureaucratic as an adjective for operation? Please reread my statements.

    Every Monday morning, all of my friends are allowed to criticize certain football teams. Most people respect the ones which criticize a team with thoughtful analysis based on some sort of experience.

    The guys that say, ‘They threw the balls really really bad’ don’t usually add much to the discussion.

    Along the same lines, anyone who characterizes a complex program executed by government employees that might even share quite a few of your ideals (as alluded to in this thread) as ‘making lawlessness and torture official policy of the United States government’ shows quite a lack of sophistication.

    Even the NY Times did a better hit job than you. Or was the NY Times just trying to cover for the Bush administration?

    What is the point of talking to you? You can just keep going on and on about these ‘government workers’ you incorrectly think I’m so hateful towards, I’ll be right over here waiting for you to finish debating no one.

  69. #555529
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:45 am, right4life said:

    The fact that you won’t even allow yourself to entertain the idea that someone smarter or more cunning than George Bush might have been able to do something about 9-11

    you mean like Clinton when stopped the bombing of the USS Cole? or the murrah building in OK?? :roll:

  70. #555532
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:46 am, right4life said:

    Bush has failed massively on every issue where he’s tried his hand, and protecting the country from terror attacks is no different. He failed, because he’s a failure.

    he’s a failure because he’s acting like a democRAT

  71. #555536
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:48 am, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:45 am, Digshot said:

    You can just keep going on and on about these ‘government workers’ you incorrectly think I’m so hateful towards, I’ll be right over here waiting for you to finish debating no one.

    That wasn’t me. I merely referenced it once. That isn’t my debate and you know it.

  72. #555551
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:57 am, Digshot said:

    There were many terrorists attacks while President Clinton was in office as well. There’s quite a list, actually. Al Gore’s “prescience” did not seem to help President Clinton much.

    No 9-11’s though.

    Besides which, arguing would have been is pointless. You have no means to prove such a statement while you also ignore the fact that there has not been another terrorist attack since… when?

    I’m ignoring a fact? Look in the mirror. Republicans always say, “We haven’t had any attacks since 9-11.” Setting 9-11 as the cut-off for what terrorist attacks Bush is responsible for is a little arbitrary, don’t you think? Isn’t it more factual to say “We have had one terrorist attack since Bush took office.” If you’re going to shower Bush with praise for all the things he’s done to prevent terror attacks since 9-11, then it would follow that you’d criticize him for the things he didn’t do to prevent 9-11. But hey, that would be consistent.

    If we get hit again, will conservatives be so eager to implement a dead zone of responsibility around President Barack Obama? Do all of our Presidents from now on get a freebie terrorist attack before we start keeping track?

  73. #555555
    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:59 am, Digshot said:

    That wasn’t me. I merely referenced it once. That isn’t my debate and you know it.

    That’s not your debate? You certainly appear to be following me around with it.

  74. #555568
    On November 24th, 2008 at 12:06 pm, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 11:59 am, Digshot said:

    That’s not your debate? You certainly appear to be following me around with it.

    You are laughably paranoid.

    Parenthetically mentioning something once can’t be characterized as “following” someone around.

    On the other hand, I’ve asked you to state the steps “anyone” taking office in Jan 2001 would have taken to prevent the attacks in Sept 2001. It’s quite obvious that you’re deliberating ignoring this question (or you haven’t finished finding a white paper on the topic).

  75. #555678
    On November 24th, 2008 at 12:46 pm, Digshot said:

    You are laughably paranoid.

    Parenthetically mentioning something once can’t be characterized as “following” someone around.

    This is all you’ve had to talk about today from what I’m reading.

    On the other hand, I’ve asked you to state the steps “anyone” taking office in Jan 2001 would have taken to prevent the attacks in Sept 2001. It’s quite obvious that you’re deliberating ignoring this question (or you haven’t finished finding a white paper on the topic).

    I know this is all after the fact and it’s a lot of conjecture, but this is just simple reasoning. George Bush is a terrible President possessing a great number of terrible personal and professional characteristics. The difficulty of a particular course of action should not be solely assessed by whether or not George Bush fails at it. There is nothing in George Bush’s background that qualifies him to be President. He is in way over his head, and that’s why we’ve been going around in circles in Iraq for years, it’s why the economy is bottoming out, and it’s why we got hit on 9-11.

    In other words, just because George Bush failed to stop 9-11 doesn’t mean it was a pre-ordained, unavoidable event. There are millions of very capable, skilled people in this country, liberal and conservative, better suited to be the President and who stood a better chance of preventing 9-11. How can you not agree with that?

  76. #555704
    On November 24th, 2008 at 12:54 pm, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 12:46 pm, Digshot said:

    This is all you’ve had to talk about today from what I’m reading.

    Then you have very poor reading skills.

  77. #555728
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:00 pm, Digshot said:

    Then you have very poor reading skills.

    Yeah? Let’s see. All you have to do is explain whatever you’re trying to explain in another way.

    But that won’t make any sense either, I bet.

  78. #555739
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:04 pm, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 12:46 pm, Digshot said:

    There are millions of very capable, skilled people in this country, liberal and conservative, better suited to be the President and who stood a better chance of preventing 9-11. How can you not agree with that?

    Of course I don’t disagree with that. I have never disagreed with that.

    I’m not stating, ‘if Bush couldn’t have prevented it, then nobody could have.’ I’m telling you that no nobody could have. This isn’t to say that the attacks were preordained. A confluence of events could have fortuitously preempted (a better word than prevented) it.

    I’m saying that, realistically, no incoming President would have made the paradigm shifting changes which would have been required to prevent the attacks simply based on the scant intelligence information that was available at the time. I hope this helps.

  79. #555766
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:10 pm, PBoilermaker said:

    Digshot = Watershed = Sean Penn

  80. #555788
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:18 pm, 30 pcs of silver said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 10:18 am, Digshot said:

    What little credibility you had – you can now kiss goodbye. How can you make such a claim? Rhetorical.

    I don’t care what a Republican has to say about my credibility. Could that be any more of a joke?

    Riiiight. Why are you here – on a conservative website spouting your BDS? Now, that is funny.

    If you think 9-11 was some pre-determined event that would have happened regardless of who was in charge of the country, you’re really just excusing George Bush.

    You stop short of calling it an inside job but come very close.

    You don’t think a better President could have stopped 9-11, as opposed to, say, going on vacation for a month at a time?

    I am wondering why you think that if the President had actionable intelligence and clear specifics about their plans for September 11, 2001 that he would have allowed it to occur. Mind-boggling.

    I get that you don’t like Bush – I get it – but the man is on his way out and the soul-fixer is on the way in. One would think that the effects of BDS would slowly but surely wane but I guess that on the road to recovery one would have to admit that they actually have a problem. Good luck with that.

  81. #555793
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:20 pm, Digshot said:

    I’m saying that, realistically, no incoming President would have made the paradigm shifting changes which would have been required to prevent the attacks simply based on the scant intelligence information that was available at the time. I hope this helps.

    We didn’t need a paradigm shift. Our government had many pieces of this plan, and while there were problems with the agencies communicating with each other, it’s really hard not to notice the aloofness and incompetence of George Bush on the issue of terrorism in that first year. I think a memo a month before Osama flies a few airplanes into a few buildings that says Osama might want to hijack some aircraft should be considered quite a bit more than scant. What are you waiting for? A cocktail napkin to turn up that has the whole plot laid out in detail?

  82. #555802
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:25 pm, PBoilermaker said:

    I hear Obama’s new limo is a gas guzzler.

    I hear Obama loves “Big Oil”.

    My German Shepherd would make a better president than Obama. Everyone knows it, it is a fact.

    How you like dem apples?

    Fire doesn’t melt steel.

    Google it.

  83. #555803
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:27 pm, iowavette said:

    I agree with some of the other posters: I want the U.S. president riding in a domestic vehicle, what better than a Cad or a Lincoln, armoured to ensure no one can pop off a shot successfully. I also liked the idea of BO driving a hemi Chrysler, which are quite cool, while spouting off about what the rest of us should be driving, very uncool. Too bad the media took zero interest. As long as these stories fail to gain traction, they didn’t happen as far as the average American is concerned.

  84. #555813
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:32 pm, PBoilermaker said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:27 pm, iowavette said:

    That’s great and all, but what are your thoughts on the scientific fact that Manbearpig would have thwarted 9/11 if the Supreme Court and Dick Cheney hadn’t stolen the election from him?

    Google it. It’s an absolute fact. Everyone knows it.

  85. #555830
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:40 pm, Digshot said:

    Riiiight. Why are you here – on a conservative website spouting your BDS? Now, that is funny.

    I don’t have fun with politics if everyone is agreeing. I post on some liberal boards, and the conservatives always run away. That’s why I come here, if you’re genuinely curious.

    You stop short of calling it an inside job but come very close.

    Not really.

    I am wondering why you think that if the President had actionable intelligence and clear specifics about their plans for September 11, 2001 that he would have allowed it to occur. Mind-boggling.

    Bush didn’t see it coming because he wasn’t looking for it. But he did get actionable intelligence in my opinion, you aren’t the sole arbiter of what that terms means, and I certainly see enough in the PDB that I would call it actionable. I know what I would have done in that position if that memo came across my desk. I can’t speak to why Bush saw it another way, but from what we’ve learned about the man since 9-11, it probably had a lot to do with his aloofness and permeating stupidity.

    I get that you don’t like Bush – I get it – but the man is on his way out and the soul-fixer is on the way in. One would think that the effects of BDS would slowly but surely wane but I guess that on the road to recovery one would have to admit that they actually have a problem. Good luck with that.

    Bush is leaving but that doesn’t mean we’ve learned all the lessons we need to from his administration. There is something wrong with if you if you can recognize all of the problems that Bush has put us in, but then insist we have to just forgive and forget and focus on the future. If you don’t learn from your mistakes you’re doomed to repeat them.

    Giving credit to George Bush for stopping all terror attacks since 9-11 but excusing him from any responsibility for 9-11 is one such mistake. A minor one comparatively to some of the others, but one that should be fairly self-evident, in my opinion.

  86. #555846
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:46 pm, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:20 pm, Digshot said:

    I think a memo a month before Osama flies a few airplanes into a few buildings that says Osama might want to hijack some aircraft should be considered quite a bit more than scant.

    Is that what you’re hinging this whole debate on!?!? Hah!

    Well, you’re wrong. In fact, you should be embarrassed.

    One memo written by one FBI employee in Minneapolis which never even made it to the director of the FBI, nonetheless the AG, nonetheless the President can hardly be considered to be actionable intelligence for the President.

    I can assure you that the FBI is currently in possession of over 300 such warning memos regarding a plethora of threats. The government would have to turn itself inside out in order to address them all.

    Of course, much like lottery tickets, some of these warnings might be very accurate. I’m quite sure that the press and people like you will proudly showcase them as examples of intelligence failures in the future.

  87. #555860
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:49 pm, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:40 pm, Digshot said:

    Bush didn’t see it coming because he wasn’t looking for it. But he did get actionable intelligence in my opinion, you aren’t the sole arbiter of what that terms means, and I certainly see enough in the PDB that I would call it actionable. I know what I would have done in that position if that memo came across my desk. I can’t speak to why Bush saw it another way, but from what we’ve learned about the man since 9-11, it probably had a lot to do with his aloofness and permeating stupidity.

    You don’t have your facts straight.

  88. #555862
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:50 pm, Digshot said:

    Is that what you’re hinging this whole debate on!?!? Hah!

    Well, you’re wrong. In fact, you should be embarrassed.

    One memo written by one FBI employee in Minneapolis which never even made it to the director of the FBI, nonetheless the AG, nonetheless the President can hardly be considered to be actionable intelligence for the President.

    I can assure you that the FBI is currently in possession of over 300 such warning memos regarding a plethora of threats. The government would have to turn itself inside out in order to address them all.

    Of course, much like lottery tickets, some of these warnings might be very accurate. I’m quite sure that the press and people like you will proudly showcase them as examples of intelligence failures in the future.

    I think we’re talking about different memos.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/august6.memo/

  89. #555868
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:53 pm, PBoilermaker said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:40 pm, Digshot said:
    I don’t have fun with politics if everyone is agreeing. I post on some liberal boards, and the conservatives always run away.

    Make your time. Move Obama’s limo for great justice.

    Dick Cheney meant to shoot that guy in the face. Google it. It’s a fact that everyone knows.

  90. #555878
    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:58 pm, 30 pcs of silver said:

    Bush didn’t see it coming because he wasn’t looking for it. But he did get actionable intelligence in my opinion, you aren’t the sole arbiter of what that terms means, and I certainly see enough in the PDB that I would call it actionable.

    And your qualifications stack up, how, exactly? I can’t use the term actionable intelligence; however, you can determine that the POTUS had actionable intelligence that could have prevented September 11, 2001. Am I the only who sees something wrong with this picture?

    I know what I would have done in that position if that memo came across my desk. I can’t speak to why Bush saw it another way, but from what we’ve learned about the man since 9-11, it probably had a lot to do with his aloofness and permeating stupidity.

    I guess that “aloofness” and “permeating stupidity” has been just the right mix to prevent another attack on US soil since then.

    Bush is leaving but that doesn’t mean we’ve learned all the lessons we need to from his administration.

    Right. I don’t think anyone is extolling that you can’t criticize him… you seem to be getting hung up on that. The issue is simple – we disagree with your assessment. Additionally, maybe next time you can try and hold your e-tonuge long enough to wait until there is a thread dedicated to him where a full blown episode of BDS is much more appropriate.

    There is something wrong with if you if you can recognize all of the problems that Bush has put us in, but then insist we have to just forgive and forget and focus on the future.

    You show me where any one has said anything remotely close to this?

    If you don’t learn from your mistakes you’re doomed to repeat them.

    The soul-fixer doesn’t make mistakes.

    Giving credit to George Bush for stopping all terror attacks since 9-11 but excusing him from any responsibility for 9-11 is one such mistake.

    Let’s just agree to disagree, shall we?

  91. #555883
    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:01 pm, PBoilermaker said:

    30, you are too kind.

  92. #555886
    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:02 pm, 30 pcs of silver said:

    PB,

    I have to be.

  93. #555894
    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:05 pm, PBoilermaker said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:02 pm, 30 pcs of silver said:
    PB,

    I have to be.

    Roger that.

  94. #555900
    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:09 pm, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:50 pm, Digshot said:

    I think we’re talking about different memos.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/august6.memo/

    Here’s an idea. Reread your own link and try to figure out what your talking about. Are you keying in on the 1998 report? That’s the the only one mentioning the use of aircraft. Wouldn’t that have come across Clinton’s desk?

    BTW, OBL wanting to hit the US was a staple of security briefings for years.

    Figure out your point and get back to me.

  95. #555935
    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:32 pm, corkie said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 1:58 pm, 30 pcs of silver said:

    …you can determine that the POTUS had actionable intelligence that could have prevented September 11, 2001.

    Ya know. If Digshot thinks that there was action to take based on the intelligence, then shouldn’t Digshot be capable of telling us exactly what actions should have been taken?

    Are we missing something here?

  96. #555943
    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:37 pm, 30 pcs of silver said:

    On November 24th, 2008 at 2:32 pm, corkie said:

    Good point. I’m guessing the answer would be something along the lines of: “anything Gore would have done.” Yeah, I think that about covers it.

  97. #556071
    On November 24th, 2008 at 3:41 pm, Digshot said:

    Here’s an idea. Reread your own link and try to figure out what your talking about. Are you keying in on the 1998 report? That’s the the only one mentioning the use of aircraft. Wouldn’t that have come across Clinton’s desk?

    BTW, OBL wanting to hit the US was a staple of security briefings for years.

    Figure out your point and get back to me.

    I’m keying in on the memo itself. It cites the ‘98 report, yes. And immediately after 9-11, before anyone knew anything about George Bush and before he’d ruined everything he touched, that this could be explained away as being too vague or not particularly interesting might have been plausible.

    Now we do know about George Bush. He’s not on top of things. At all. In fact, if he is actually working at all, he tends to be doing counter-productive, stupid things. He wasn’t doing anything about Osama bin Laden as President, like he wasn’t doing so many things he should have been doing. This is how things went in the Clinton administration when there was a similar PDB that warned of an Osama threat:

    The same day, [Counterterrorism Czar Richard] Clarke convened a meeting of his CSG [Counterterrorism Security Group] to discuss both the hijacking concern and the antiaircraft missile threat. To address the hijacking warning, the group agreed that New York airports should go to maximum security starting that weekend. They agreed to boost security at other East coast airports. The CIA agreed to distribute versions of the report to the FBI and FAA to pass to the New York Police Department and the airlines. The FAA issued a security directive on December 8, with specific requirements for more intensive air carrier screening of passengers and more oversight of the screening process, at all three New York area airports. [pg. 128-30]

    http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/26/rice-clinton-terrorism/

    If you want to know what Bush should have done from that memo, I think that would be a good place to start. What’s so hard about that? We do have airports for a reason, you know. We have security at airports for a reason. Call some people, give them the heads up, what is there to lose? Better to err on the side of caution, isn’t it?

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