Game Boys at Gitmo
My syndicated column today examines the fascinating change of heart over Gitmo by some Obama liberals mugged by War on Terror reality. Better late than never, I guess. Perhaps they’ll all have a deeper appreciation for the thankless job that men like George W. Bush, Michael Mukasey, John Ashcroft, John Yoo, and so many others have had to do while enduring unhinged and ignorant taunts of “terrorist” and “tyrant” the past seven years.
***
Playing games at Gitmo
by Michelle Malkin
Creators Syndicate
Copyright 2008
The human rights crowd is right: Life is hard for a Guantanamo Bay detainee. The deprivation is unspeakable. Their brains have not been “stimulated” enough, according to the facility’s “cultural advisor.” Which is why this Thanksgiving, America is drawing up plans to provide the 250 or so suspected jihadists at the “notoriously Spartan” detention camp with basic sustenance including movie nights, art classes, English language lessons, and “Game Boy-like” electronic devices, according to the Miami Herald.
Next up: Wii Fit, Guitar Hero, Sudoku, People magazine, and macramé. Anything less would be uncivilized.
On a deadly serious note, the detainees aren’t the only ones playing games at Gitmo. Some top legal advisors and supporters of Barack Obama, whose name detainees chanted on election night, are now rethinking the President-elect’s absolutist campaign position on shutting the center down and flooding our mainland courts with every last enemy combatant designee. Yes, reality bites – and Democrats must now grapple with the very real possibility that an Obama administration could potentially release a Gitmo denizen who would turn around and commit mass terrorist acts on American soil or abroad.
Nothing clarifies the mind like a jihadi boomerang. Never before have an administration and its followers matured so quickly in office – and they haven’t even taken office yet. While Obama paid lip service to the “Close the Gitmo gulag!” agenda on 60 Minutes over the weekend, his kitchen cabinet is proceeding more pragmatically. Believe it or not, the Obama crowd is now contemplating a preventive detention law and an alternative judicial system for the most sensitive national security cases involving the most highly classified information. Information that has no place being aired in the civilian courts for public consumption.
Listen to relentless Bush critic David Cole, who told the New York Times last week: “You can’t be a purist and say there’s never any circumstance in which a democratic society can preventively detain someone.” Added Ben Wittes of the Brookings Institution: “I’m afraid of people getting released in the name of human rights and doing terrible things.”
Moreover, Obama transition team members have suggested to the Wall Street Journal that despite his campaign season CIA-bashing, “Obama may decide he wants to keep the road open in certain cases for the CIA to use techniques not approved by the military, but with much greater oversight.”
Next thing you know, they’ll start arguing that the world has been fooled by years of sob-story propaganda about the Gitmo detainees — funded by Kuwaiti government-subsidized lawyers who cast them all as innocent potato farmers and schmucks dazed and confused on battlefields.
Next thing you know, they’ll rediscover the facts that detainees have systematically lied and exaggerated stories about mistreatment at Gitmo and that interrogators and military personnel have bent over backwards to accommodate their personal and religious needs and wants.
Next thing you know, they’ll start reminding us that dozens of former Gitmo detainees have been released and recaptured on the battlefield while committing acts of terrorism.
Funny, when President Bush and his homeland security team realized these very realities seven years ago, they were branded terrorists and hounded relentlessly by Congress, the media, and the Left. When Attorney General Michael Mukasey eloquently defended these administration’s counter-terrorism policies at the Federalist Society before he collapsed, he was heckled as a “tyrant.” And when I wrote my second book expounding on this very thesis, I was branded a racist and fascist whose ideas exploring the proper balance between security and civil liberties had no place in public discourse.
Now, at long last, some liberals have realized that the sacred goal of “regain[ing] America’s moral stature in the world,” as Obama put it, may be less important than ensuring that al Qaeda killers don’t strike on American ground again.
Viva la Hope and Change!
***
Related must-read: Clear and Present Danger
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Trackbacks
- Lesson learned? | Cold Fury
- Gitmo two-step | TALON
- Random Jottings
- miamipress.net | miamipress.net
- Closing Guantanamo A Priority For Obama - Maybe Not | BigMouthFrog
- This ain’t Hell, but you can see it from here » Blog Archive » Gitmo two-step
- Gitmo Detainees Chanted “Obama” « al-Obama
- Liberals: On Second Thought, Guantánamo Rocks! « Jane Q. Republican
- WO’s Daily Roundup | Without Objection
- Obama to Close Down the Horrors of Holiday Club Gitmo - What Guantanamo Bay is Really Like « BUUUUURRRRNING HOT
- The Skepticrats » More Blackmail on National Security
- Obama the liar. « Truth, Lies and In Between
- There's My Two Cents
- Michelle Malkin » Neeeever mind (again!): Obama abandons windfall profits tax
- The Skepticrats » New Splash Page on Obama Website Reflects Policy Reversals
- Bush y Obama, cerrar Guantánamo, y la dificultad de hacerlo « Sarah Palin en Español
- The Skepticrats » Don’t stop R.S. McCain, he’s on a roll . . .
- Michelle Malkin » Obama: Gee, this Gitmo thing is more complicated than I thought
- Obama lowers expectations, raises taxes; Surprise Surprise! « Riggword Weblog
- Michelle Malkin » “…they worried that the administration might yield to pressure to display its toughness in dealing with terrorism in its detention policies.
- Muslim in the White House » Winds Of Jihad
- Michelle Malkin » Flip-flop watch: Obama will now fight release of “torture” photos
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Categories: Gitmo
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I take a quantum of solace in knowing that although some of O’s buddies may be changing their stance as Barry tacks to the center, the leftist nutroots are going crazy.
Democrats are wimps above all else. Ten times out of ten, they will abandon their principles* rather than be accused of being “soft on terror.” See: voting to start the Iraq War, the Patriot Act, FISA, and of course not using their powers in the majority to end the war by ending the funding, even when they had the votes to do it.
* assuming they have principles, other than staying in office.
Just GameBoys? Shouldn’t they get Blackberry Storms?
Who knows? Maybe they’ll even put out some PSA’s that say “Waterboarding is FUNdamental!”
Now Michelle, you know that “truths” can be revealed now that a Democrat will become president. Then he can conveniently save us from all the newly-discovered terrorists at Gitmo. Which Bush failed to do with his failed policies that failed (John McCain shares them). Somehow.
We had to lose an election to get what we want? I’m getting confused. Next they’ll claim that taking prayer out of public school has led to moral decay.
Isn’t “Grand Theft Auto” available on Game Boy?
During the next 8 years, the decisions about what to do with Gitmo terrorists will not be made by the Obama administration. All of the decisions about national security and terrorists will be made by liberal Wall Street and 5th Avenue lawyers. In their daily activities, these lawyers at once mega firms do such wholesome work as drafting CDO forms for such lovely clients as Lehman Brothers Holdings, CitiGroup, AIG and other silk stocking but incompetent companies. The lawyers make alot of money from these dry as dust but lucrative assignments. But they feel bored about what they do. You can’t brag at the countryclub that you drafted a CDO for Lehman boss Dick Fuld. That just doesn’t do it. So instead, all of these prominent WASPY New York City law firms (they all seem to be named Dewey something and other) have added “pro bono” departments. And the lawyers at these firms are not interested in some routine case like a poor sap who bought a used car with rotten brakes. Instead, they want to take on the Pentagon and generals. So all the firms do their pro bono work by fighting to get Gitmo detainees. The more ruthless and evil the detainee, the more the lawyers from the Ivy League background love it. And they just go to liberal federal judges, most appointed by Clinton-Carter and get everything they want. Try being a US Government lawyer and go up against a Carter-Clinton judge, You will be treated like a combination of nerd and pariah and you have no chance of getting a Carter-Clinton judge of listening.
I understand that Peridents often go back on campaign promises, but the One is already going back on promises and he hasn’t taken the oath of office yet. All the people who voted for him expecting and end to the war and gitmo being closed (not to mention cabinet picks) must be really disillusioned right now. Too freakin bad. Welcome to the reality of the world we live in today.
Excellent column Michelle.
The featherweight Obama may be just now realizing that the office he seeks has enormous responsibility to go along with the power, prestige and “private plane”.
Next thing we know, their order of battle against Al Qaeda will be take no prisoners.
Obama, Obama, Obama, What $Price$ Glory?
I certainly hope that they will be hooked up with a computer that has “flight trainer” on it. That way they can learn to fly aircraft into buildings. sarc/
With respect to this facing of the facts of life by Obama and his people, Mad Magazine more than 40 years ago came out with its rhyming “ABC’s of Politics.” Near the end, they wrote,
“Y is for ‘Yes,’
A word that’s expected
In making those deals
That you break when elected.”
I think that Obama is finally finding out from briefings that the leftist MSM really was reporting only half the story. As he learns more and finds out that what the right has been saying for 7 years is true and that it is his friends and hangers-on who are spewing forth horse squeeze he’ll shift even more in his positions. Growing up fast indeed.
If Obama hasn’t really gotten the message and insists on releasing the GITMO prisoners here in the U.S.A, I’d say let’s release them in the most liberal member’s of Congress own backyards. We’ll see how benevolent they are then.
If we bring them to the states and bring them into our court system, the only one’s who will be giddy with joy are the liberal lawyers from the ACLU. Taxpayers will spend millions upon millions for their defense and the money will go right into the lawyer’s wallets.
So far, Obama has been sounding like a centrist – better for conservatives and bad for the libs.
Fiscally, he’s sounding almost conservative with his pronouncement we can’t raise taxes now and we must cut spending.
The MSM can’t see the hypocrisy of their journalistic endeavors. Praise when Obama suggests doing those things Bush has been doing for 8 years (at least until recently); villification when Bush did it.
I hope someone is keeping a good tab on Obama’s campaign promises and how many will go unfulfilled or are just plain outright lies. Of course, credit should be given where credit is due.
Marc #8, yeah it’s the same law firm used by the Three Stooges (Obama, Reid and Pelosi) Dewey, Cheatum and Howe. It’s money in the bank. Oh yeah, as you said, the prestige to go along with defending the bottom of the barrel types.
The internment camp at Guantanamo Bay is a blot on the US record, like the internment camp at Manzanar. Obama promised to close it down, and repeated that promise after the election.
Making light of it (Gitmo is a Caribbean vacation spot) is like making light of Manzanar (vacation in the Sierras). Imprisoning people at the whim of the President is wrong, whether that President is Roosevelt, Chavez, or Bush.
Starry-eyed Obama supporters consider any Republican / conservative who might say 12 today and 12.00000001 tomorrow a liar and a hypocrite. Well, they should chow down and swallow hard. Pres O will be dishing out a steady diet of unprocessed lies and hypocrisy for the next 4 years. This is what it tastes like.
lgm, it’s not the Gitmo that I knew.
LGM: It’s not wrong to imprison them when they are at war with you and caught on the battlefield. In fact, they’d be considered worthy of execution since they would be considered no less then spies in other wars for not wearing a uniform that distinguishes them as soldiers.
Liberals wouldn’t know that because it’s a rare thing to see a liberal in military uniform defending our country.
Did you know that what does not play at U.S. Naval Base Guantanamo is traditional military music outdoors, e.g. Reveille when raising our flag, Call to Colors and Retreat when lowering it, or late night Taps to signal the workday is done, so as to not offend the detainees?
(Taps “is also sometimes known as “Butterfield’s Lullaby”, or by the lyrics of its second verse, “Day is Done“”).
Its just an attempt to torture them via repeatative strain injury. Side note, this is why I said in 2002 that we should have made them POW’s. We get to keep them till the war is over.
Actually, since they don’t play Reveille; Call to Colors; and Retreat, I’d suggest they play 24 hours of Barry Manilow to sooth those savage beasts. The trouble is, our troops would have to endure it too.
Liberals wouldn’t know that because it’s a rare thing to see a liberal
in military uniformdefending our country. Not saying that you didn’t make your point well, but…Right. And just who will be the target of this preventive detention law and an alternative judicial system; islamic jihadist or Bill Ayres “unrepentant capitalist”?
Before we rejoice and dance I would caution we remember with whom we are dealing:
Barack Hussein Obama and Rahm Emanuel
Nancy Pelosi and Henry Waxman and such in the House
Dingy Harry, Feinstein, Schumer and such in the Senate.
Clinton retreads of all sorts-the authors of Ruby Ridge, advocates for the Fairness Doctrine and that non sense “Assault Weapons” Ban.
In God We Trust-Liberals need not apply.
Excellent column.
AN, I think we need to throw in Sandy “Socks” Burglar.
Is there no place left on your thick skin Michelle for some more branding. Seems to me, you have brands on top of brands.
Wear them as badges of honor Michelle, for you have earned them all.
The One is either being dragged to the middle or moving there on his own about as fast as can be. Is it possible he has more self-awareness than the average leftist, such that he can see the damage his idealistic kumbaya visions and self-righteous finger-pointing at others will, in practice, actually do?
They’re starting to get a greater sense of power over others. If they can’t yet put us in camps for saying our piece here, then they’ll practice with what they’ve got–Guantanamo Bay.
So If the nut cases get their way and bring these “misunderstood” youths to the USA ( where many of them were trying to come before capture). We put them on “trial” in say San Franciso? Do we blow operations by having our brave men and women testify in open court, as to how the “misunderstood” were captured? I suspect that the “chain of evidence” in a very liberal court would be considered inadequate. So they would be released? In the USA? Where they tried but failed to infiltrate? Where it would take them only minutes to arm themselves with what ever they wanted? And what ever the result, this would be the fault of the understood to be evil conservatives? Not enough game boys at Gitmo?
Rare yes, yet look closer. A good many liberal military lawyers were or are defending the detainees. Some of them obviously leaked classified information to the CCR, ACLU, and the Guantanamo Bay Bar Association.
One such lawyer even secretly mailed the ACLU a complete list of detainees. As I recall, he became a lawyer because his dad was on dead row for murder.
That doesn’t even deserve a response.
lgm, how is it I never seem to see you comment on threads that are upbeat or have a general goodness to them? I’m just curious.
Me thinks I’m going to regret this.
Let them all go so we can kill them on the field of battle.
lgm, don’t worry about these guys. I’m sure as soon as they get out they will have a job here in the U.S. Checker and Yellow are always looking for drivers that can’t speak ENGLISH.
Some notes:
1. Hope-a-Dope had only two paths available to him after the election: either (A) betray all the now not-so-useful idiots of the Left and emulate Bill Clinton’s “Run to the Center” approach to governing; or (B) placate said idiots and guarantee a one-term presidency a la Jimmy Carter. It’s clear which path he’s choosing so far.
2. For Hope-a-Dope to keep on keepin’ on with Bush Administration policies doesn’t upset donks too much, because a lot of them are rationalizing, “Yeah, but now these policies will be carried out competently!” Only the Leftist morons are breaking out the sodium bicarbonate right now at the prospect of “George Bush’s Third Term.” See powerlineblog.com for a more detailed explanation of this phenomenon.
3. The prior job of the newly-hired VP of the company I work for was Deputy Commander of Guantanamo Bay (he’s a retired Brigadier General). He mentioned in passing that one of the things we do is to voice-print the terrorists while they’re there. So … when they get released and start yakking on their phones, they get a big “surprise.” He wouldn’t go into the classified details, but one has to wonder whether NSA monitoring of those voice-prints is one way that we’re having so much success blasting AQ and Taliban-types in Pakistan lately…
4. Only a Leftist moron could compare Guantanamo Bay to Manzanar. When did foreign terrorists captured on the battlefield become US citizens of Japanese ancestry?
“Thinking is the hardest job there is. That’s why so few people engage in it.”
- Henry Ford
Dare we hope that some liberals actually have a bit of national pride. Well, you could’a knocked me over with a feather.
I would release all of them. About 400 miles west of the Azore Islands seems like a good place to drop them all off.
Same treatment our captured soldiers got. My message to the Gitmo guys is “AMF.”
what BS. we should release them to YOUR care.
Actually we should just drop them off in the middle of the ocean, at night, after we have all we can get from them….and give them a life jacket just to prolong it.
then film it…and send it back to their friends…and tell them this is what is waiting for you…
its a good object lesson! just like public hanging or crucifiction.
Could it be that these naive idiots have finally been apprised of the dangers we face from jihad? Did a light finally go on in their dimly lit brains? And the world turns!
let them go, empty all Israeli prisons too stop fighting sure works for me.
This American neck wont be sliced and I wont mourn those who……
yes children actions have ….
From what altitude?
Kinky! Hat tip to you.
beat me to it..great minds..
Could it be that Obama is calculating enough to move to the center just to get Chamblis out of office and then really apply the screws with his new Democratic majority?
So who will the next Nick Berg’s Father blame? I bet he sleeps real well in his bed of appeaser tears.
With a GPS of -500 feet.
LOL. Funny because it’s so true.
land them in DC after cocktails and caviar. Dont drop them lay them down very gently and provide limos to congress.Surely they would get a heros welcome and a tour!
I am all for this lets do it.
Obama fakes to center….republicans relax guard…..Chambliss stumbles…..back to hard left…..touchdown Obama!
Love it!
mytake
simple answer is no.
obambi has reached the apex of his delusions. Tis best not to attribute
cognitive thought when there aint none.
Don’t underestimate a man who always associated with leftists since college days. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m not yet ready to relax my guard.
oh and PS sports analogies dont cut it unless you desire to work for lamestream media
LOL! They’re just now realizing that any terrorist attacks that occur under Hussein will be blamed on him, since they will will have happened “under his watch” (to use lib jargon).
Idiots, all of them. (I’m referring to stupid libs.)
I’m so paranoid I think he is just trying to guarantee a second term…. when he can really get to work socializing our nation.
LAPES from the back of a C-130?
always associted with? what a benign take on who obambi is with every breath he takes. word he has written and action he has taken his entire adult life.
enjoy this day He has created.
and psst that HE aint obambi….
right4life said (#41):
Surprising that someone who goes by “right for life” is so excited about killing people.
Many in the Guantanamo internment camp were not “captured on the battlefield”, but abducted in various places. A few were arrested in Bosnia, supposedly planning a terrorist attack there. The US dropped charges when the judge demanded evidence (google it).
You want a true America hating radical, try Thomas Jefferson — “Better that a hundred guilty men go free than a single innocent be convicted.” In America we tell innocent from guilty by public trials and open evidence, not by the say-so of the President.
Some people just need killing. I know you are excited about these hard core anti-american terrorists getting another chance to kill more americans, but please don’t go overboard.
So you support the detainment of those captured on the battlefield.
Better to drop a charge than to compromise an intelligence source.
TJ didn’t hate America. He was simply pushing due process for Americans at a time when it wasn’t an universal concept. I’m sure that your comments would make him cry.
Overall, I’ll be waiting for your criticism of Obama during the months that the detainments continue.
Soooo…let me get this straight. You are comparing American citizens of Japanese decent who did nothing other than be Japanese during WWII and interned by a Democrat(left wing bigotry) to non-American fighters and terrorist captured on the battlefield and imprisoned by the Commander in Chief. Do I have it right?
Can anyone see the bigotry in this poster…lgm…? I have always known the real bigots, both racial and religious were lefties…and lgm has gone and proved my point again.
” … the Obama crowd is now contemplating a preventive detention law and an alternative judicial system for the most sensitive national security cases involving the most highly classified information.”
Which does not mean that closing Gitmo is off the table.
I am indifferent to the existence of Gitmo in one form, or another. My concern is that the detainees be dealt with by some means of finality. It should not take seven years to make decisions. We should not have proceeded, and then receeded, in how we handled the detainees.
It might be a good idea to establish a plan of action, and follow it. Gitmo itself is not the problem.
So as long as Obama is “working towards” some sort of plan, then all the orange suiters will be ok?
Let’s bring the jihadis back to a place they will feel comfortable in. My suggestion is San Francisco–during the Folsom Street Fair. Then after the day’s (week’s?)(yearlong?) festivities we put them up in tents on Nancy Pelosi’s lawn.
***
Order 500 sets of chaps now–no rear ends needed!
John Bibb
as long as its a blue area, I’m fine with that. they may like folsom street more than we would know…
(President Bush to Donald Rumsfeldt — “Rummy, round me up some dee-tan-ees today. I feel like settin’ up a camp somewhere’s. How ’bout Cuba?”)
lgm — adults have to make tough decisions that are sometimes unpopular with the politically correct elite. Let’s hope PE-Obama can grow up soon and become a true leader and not simply an “image”.
LGM, I prefer John Wayne… “Out here due process is a bullet.”
The jihadists made the rules by the treatment of our captured soldiers. Fine, we will play the game by their rules.
Hey Cheddar — line of the day. Still laughing at this.
The proper place for sensitive classified information is the New York Times.
Evil….it walks like us, talks like us and dresses like us……in fact, it can “look” like just about anyone…. for evil is a master of disguise…..yet, Evil is fully aware that it must first infect a person’s mind before it can control/command a person’s body…..to achieve this end, Evil will seek out as its “host” the minds of those it deems the most easily manipulated…….fortunately for Evil, we are all born of free will, so there are many potential targets from which to choose……once Evil locks in on a target it deems most vulnerable, it will not relent until it infects that target’s mind……..this process can take many years, or it may happen in an instant…… nevertheless, once the infestation of the mind is complete, the body quickly falls in lock-step…….Evil, now in human form, both extremely dangerous and brilliantly disguised, can wreak havoc wherever it may wish…… can someone provide a more plausible explanation for the insane, warped perspectives of “lgm”
They wouldn’t care if your name was “lgm”they would slice your head off anyway.Obama is a flat out LIAR and that is all there is to it.
A Democrat talking out both sides of his mouth – there’s something new! Nice waffle, Barry O!
It bites to be a water-carrying lib! Ha-ha-ha! Welcome to reality.
No!!! Obamahitler! Bidenwaterburten! GitmoGates! Calling Cindy Sheehan, time to camp out in Hyde Park!
lgm,
Does AQ give American prisoners in their care “due process” before executing them? Looks like we give our “enemy combatants” decent food, medical care and access to a lawyer for their trials…what about AQ?
Manzanar was a huge mistake – the US interned a group of people based upon an unfounded fear after Pearl Harbor – and we have made efforts to repay that mistake. AQ/Taliban combatants want to kill/destroy us…big difference.
Looks like some on the left have been suckered by Obama’s “rope-a-dope” politics…
One thing – they actually seem to have gotten it into their lying heads that the world is a dangerous place. If they manage that, I’ll give them props.
Though wouldn’t you expect a guy who publishes the closed hearings from a divorce to be snooping on al Qaeda? I mean at least to register new voters…
The point, since you’ve missed it – is that your One is now going to do what Bush did – ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Sucks to drink the Kool-Aid, only to discover your leader hasn’t…
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
For those who didn’t read Michelle’s book, the US govt also interred Germans and Italians.
It was general practice at the beginning of a war with a foreign power to round up the enemy citizens to prevent espionage and sabotage. It has been a general practice by every country not bound to its citizens by a suicide pact.
Political correctness is the death knell of a civilization.
Barack: Ah…er..I…oh…uh…Can I buy another vowel?
And, if you read our hostess’ book, those fears were not all unfounded.
Good article.
You are correct, Dexter. We sit comfortably many decades after the fact, but we lost our fleet at the very start of a naval war. A fear of a Japanese invasion of Hawaii or the west coast was not unreasonable.
We were trying desperately not to lose the war.
Haven’t tried that too often since 1945.
Let me get this straight…BHO is keeping FISA, not going to charge our “torturers” with war crimes, going to keep the Bush tax cuts in place, not going to close GITMO…you mean I have to endure 4 more years of the last 8 years of failed policy? I know the left will never get it, but can we go around and punch the independents in the nose? I’ve told so many of them that the MSM are a bunch of liars and they just did not get it.
LGM? I would much rather have this “blot” on the US than the radicalized domestic prisons they enjoy in the UK. Hell, even the guards are afraid. These people cannot be put with the rest of the population. Maybe all the countries moaning about Gitmo should follow our example. It makes their regular prisons safer.
He’s in denial today.
Will all the looney lefties who do all the marching and protesting start burning the black president in effigy?
If not, what are they gonna do with all the lighter fluid?
I guess Gitmo detainees are “victims” only during campaign season.
Now that Despercrats must take responsibility again, the L’il Gitmo Darlins magically become “terrorists” again, just like when George W. Hitler was president!
Couldn’t we just lock them in an MSNBC studio 24/7 and be done with them?
Oh no, of course not; “cruel & unusual” etc, etc.
Obviously, Obummer isn’t stupid. He won’t be continuing the policies that failed. Only the ones that were successful, like the tax cuts, anti-terrorism tactics, military strategy, etc. You know, the policies that the Left had no problem with. (must… maintain… straight face…)
I’m in favor of the gitmo video games.
They should all be Bible trivia games.
Compare and contrast: Gitmo and Belmarsh Prison. Google Belmarsh and see what they put up with.