“22 Pounds of UAW Rules and Regulations”
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Almost as big as my verizon bill last month…wow!
and the U.S. Constitution is how many pages?
I think a better solution to the bailout of the Big 3 would be to x-fer their whole retirement/pension system to the government. Convert them all to the same plans that a typical gov’t retiree gets. That would solve the biggest problem for the Big 3 and put them on a level playing field with the competition. Of course the absolute best plan would be to break the union but what are the odds?
That is part of the bailout.
Instead of a Coke can, the better context for scale would’ve been an adjacent empty table top with the caption: “Blood-sucking union contract that Detroit’s competitors have to wear around their necks.”
No thanks, I don’t have that kind of time. The UAW contract is 2215 pages. My Study Bible is 1748 pages, not counting concordance and appendices. It is a challenge to read through the entire Bible in one year, and it wasn’t written by lawyers.
I can get you a 22 pound bag of horse manure that’s is worth just the same.
No actually worth more, you can get some nice roses from horse manure.
I see they put a Coke can next to the stack for scale.
As for the actual bail-out, I would like to see the currency denomination it would take to make a stack this high. $10,000 bills might do it.
I am still finding it hard to complain about the auto industry while AIG is getting so much. Showboating by the politico’s is all this is.
To the American public: “We are not going to make the American public pay for GM’s bail-out”
To AIG: “How much do you
needwant?”Talk about unbalanced scales!!!
Gee, it’s smaller than I thought it would be!
*Sarc off*
Soon to be half a page.
Is it possible that having to carry such a heavy load is in violation of OSHA regulation? just wondering.
The UAW is a leech that has grown larger than its host.
Looks like the second American revolution WILL happen in my lifetime. Time to purchase some unregistered firearms.
Unions are an anachronism. Technology is changing so quickly that unionization rings the death knell for any organization trying to compete in a global economy. About the only unions that can prosper are those associated with government or government controlled monopolies such as public education.
I swore allegenice to THIS constitution. A new constitution convention at this time will be a clear call to civil war.
Why do you hate working class people trying to make a living decent enough for a house and tuition for their kids? These are just people trying to avoid getting screwed by their employers the way so many have in recent years. The middle class is evaporating and the busting of unions is a key component of its demise. We should be instituting tariffs and taxes on foreign companies to offset their cheap standard of living, not lower ours to their level. Repeal NAFTA, etc. and make sure a Toyota costs as much to make as a Dodge. Punish companies that take manufacturing overseas by taxing at 100% any savings they might gain. And put workers ahead of shareholders.
My dad put 35 years into a company and was promised that that company would take care of him for the rest of his life. Promises were made and broken to keep the stock price up and bail out management mistakes. That should be illegal. Companies should be held to the promises they make, and if that means bailouts, so be it as long as the money goes into the pockets of the little guy.
Micheal Moore is having a sh!t fit over this.
Apparantly we all hate american middle class workers. Predictable rhetoric.
I don’t believe in any other kind.
Agreed.
Oh come on, not one cent of this was going to the little guy.
Truth be told I am already feeling a little frogy, and ready to jump.
If you think that pile is bad, you should see the us tax code.
We can’t tax companies (people) that have left.
Workers are shareholders. What do you think, the world is made of Oliver Twists and Daddys Warbucks? Ever hear of Merrill Lynch or a 401k or and IRA?
Note to Big 3 – Bankruptcy. Contract goes away. Start with one page: 1. Come to work. 2. Do a good job. 3. Collect check on payday with our thanks. 4. Medical insurance and 11 Holidays
Not to worry, O’dipstick will fix that too. Soon your 1040 will be:
How much did you make? _____________
Send it in.
Concord and Lexington! Sic Semper Tyrannus!
Who is a more highly skilled worker?
a.) A McDonalds hamburger flipper making $8.00-$10.00/hr.
b.) A UAW hack screwing on bolts with a air-wrench making $75.00/hr(total compensation value).
Break the unions and save the trees!
Gregory of Yardale posts what’s in those 22 lbs of regulations.
Question: What do the US Steel industry, the US Auto industry, and the US Public Education industry have in common?
Answer: Union stranglehold that has destroyed the industry.
Steel Industry – Essentially Gone
Auto Industry – Going
Public Education – Ranked 18th in the world.
We continually hear about the “fatcat” CEOs. When will we see the salaries of the “fatcat” union bosses and hear of their lavish paychecks, perks, lifestyles and homes, etc?
They probably don’t travel on a “corporate” jet, but they also don’t travel in coach!
Excellent point.
In my mind the question isn’t should we let GM go bankrupt, but how can we make them go bankrupt?
Did you hear the load of crap shoveled out by Giveusthefinger, the President of the UAW? They will never make any meaningful concessions. So, the concessions will have to be made for them. A bailout means 3 to 6 months of operating capital and then bankruptcy or another bailout.
Who the devil do these people think will be paying for the bailout? It is the McDonald hamburger flippers taxes…. or more realistically, the middle class families who have been overpaying for GM cars all these years. It wasn’t enough for us to pay the UAW on the front end, now they want us to pay on the back end. All just to postpone the inevitable for a few months. None of this is meant to excuse the clowns that call themselves management at these companies. They should be called damagement instead.
I think the fears of a domestic automaker going bankrupt are overblown. The problem is they are making 14 million cars a year (and paying enough workers to make 18 million cars) when the market is for 10 million cars per year. The demand for that 10 million will just go elsewhere. Ford isn’t in as bad a shape as GM. They will pick up some of the sales. American auto plants in the South will have to ramp up production to meet new demand. Only they will be able to make cars with fewer workers than they can in Detroit.
Earlier this year, our Cadillac suv got wrecked. We tried to replace it with a nice Buick but we couldn’t afford it (never mind the Cadillac!). So, we bought the Mercedes instead.
It has nothing to do with liking or disliking “working-class people.” It has to do with the UAW, which is busy doing to the home-grown auto industry what the United Steel Workers did to the American steel industry.
Are you saying that the non-union folks who built my Subaru in Indiana aren’t “working class?” Somehow they still seem to be getting along in profitable companies that aren’t about to file bankruptcy and fire them en masse.
And they’ve been trying so hard to avoid being screwed that they’ve ended up screwing others … and ultimately themselves. Whose fault is that?
Non-sequitur: Unions are not the acid test of the middle class, which is hardly “evaporating,” and even if they were all one needs to do is to examine their disastrous effects on the industries they have afflicted vis-a-vis the non-union competition.
The unions are “protecting” themselves right into extinction. And rather than face the fact, they just keep digging.
That’s been tried before. It led to something called “The Great Depression.”
Spoken like a true union demagogue: refusing to take responsibility for one’s own retirement, refusing to recognize that what was the case three decades in the past doesn’t mean that things will never change, and blaming others for the consequences of that refusal; then topping it all off with a quasi-socialist, class-warfare seeking reference to “the little guy” — whose ossified union recalcitrance contributed mightily to the company’s inability to adapt to a changing competitive environment.
The unions’ day has come and gone. They served their purpose a century ago, but everything worthwhile they fought for has been legislated into Federal, state and local labor laws.
All they have left is what’s driving them into extinction: squeezing the Golden Goose to death while giving rise to the need for RICO laws.
They can get that down to one sentence: “Company may hire and fire at will”.
The unions have faced the facts and they don’t care. Unions have a corrupt, power-hungry hierarchy, sort of like you find in Chicago politics. As long as the dues keep rolling in, the union leaders are in good shape, so who cares what really happens to the rank and file? Want to see the unhappiest man on earth? Take a look at a union boss that had to go back to work. So, if they crush the capitalist system to get a few more months of living off the public, that’s a good trade-off in union-think.
eaglehaslanded said: (#16)
I like the idea of keeping promises. But why trust the federal government to help? These are the people who promised veterans (not necessarily retirees) for years that they would have medical care (such as it is–and it’s highly variable) for life if they completed x amount of service. It becomes inconvenient, and suddenly, “Sorry, we didn’t mean that.”
Good God!.
If I had to go through that pile of $#^^*&%%&^% I’d go out of business first.
GEEES!!
rightisright said: (#2)
What a quaint idea! The US Constitution. Imagine people paying attention to that old thing. At least, that’s what a unfortunately large percentage of lawmakers, enforcers, and liberals seems to believe.
O Tempore! O Mores!
sonofdy said: (#15)
Me too.
No, that’s why they have to have a fleet of lawyers on retainer. More overhead.
Why don’t you do that for us. Compare what the legacy cost is for the typical shop rat as opposed to the typical government worker. You do know what the typical government worker gets in pension and benefits and what the typical UAW shop rat gets don’t you? You seem to be an expert. Please elucidate about the competitive, low cost legacy obligations of local, state, and federal employees. Demonstrate how those prudent government compensation packages when adopted by the Big Three will make them so much better.
Pure ownage. Thank you. I was sitting at work unable to post till I got home and was waiting for someone to make your post before I got home to do it myself. Well said.
The unions have been screwing companies for decades. For the life of me, I just don’t understand how they’re even legal. They had their time when they were needed, but since we’ve put in federal, state and local labor laws, what on earth do we need them for anymore?
They’re the reason we pay higher prices on just about everything, and they’re also the reason the USA loses jobs to overseas manufacturing facilities.
Get rid of the unions, and you’ll see the jobs come back to the USA.
Here in California, we are bankrupt, as you all know. However, the public employee unions are in complete denial of this situation, and are STILL demanding huge raises next year. The unions are like some great prehistoric beast who doesn’t yet realize its kind is extinct.
Unions are dinosaurs. SEIU is the fastest growing union in the country, and it is growing primarily by unionizing illegal aliens, janitors, and other low wage workers.
They also represent most government workers here in CA, such as me. Even now, every city and county in this state is cutting staff, cutting budgets, and trying to pare down to survive this economic downturn. Our unions here where I work will not listen to ONE WORD from management. All we here is “NO”. No cuts, no reduction in staff, no merging of union classifications, etc.
They are dinosaurs. They are extinct, but don’t yet know it.
Why is the UAW even part of Congressional negotiations? They are not OUR elected officials, and have no right to be in these meetings taking place on Capitol Hill.
It’s past time for the Democrats to decide whom they work for…it’s either them or us. So, which is it?
Watching Chris Dodd at the news conference today absolutely infuriated me! Smirking about Republican’s throwing up road blocks to “their” deal made me just want to be-otch slap that crooked bum! He has made financial errors in judgement in his own personal life, but the American people are supposed to believe in his judgement now? Heal thyself, doctor!
Why is always all about hate with you lefties? Does it ever enter into your tiny little minds that maybe there are policy preferences that come from reason and not emotion? Or is that beyond you?
I want to know why you hate me… I’m a working class worker but I don’t work for the UAW, why should my money be taken to prop them up? Why do you hate me man?
I’m not a leftie. I think that if a company promised a worker a pension after so many years of service, that promise should be honored. Some of the writers here have stated that over time circumstances change and it is no longer convenient or cost effective to honor these promises. The of the measures of a man or woman is whether they honor their promises, even when it is inconvenient to them. What’s next? telling veterans that their 20 or 30 years of service counts for nothing? Shame on you sunshine patriots who only look out for yourselfs and pick and choose the promises you will honor. Shame on you.
Why should my money be used to pay for promises made by the Big3 and UAW management? Taxpayers voted for the government officials that made the promises that were given to military members, so of course taxpayer money should be used to honor those promises. Taxpayers never voted for Big3 and UAW management, so our money should not be used to honor promises made by them.
This is pathetic, hating unions so much, that it’s okay to destroy families to think of them as non-human. Better them than you, right? Screw them, right? they should have taken the career path you did, right?
How is this visciousness towards blue collar workers different from the attacks by the left on the people in the military. I’m sure people here have seen the comments that people are in the military because they are the dregs of society, they have no where else to go or they are just too stupid to avoid military service. In Japan, the average CEO makes 10 times as much as the workers in his company. In the US, the average CEO makes 400 times as his employees, something is wrong. I don’t think the answer is socialism, but things have to change.
So, jwm, now we’re unpatriotic if we’re not crazy about supporting an unemployment jobs bank that pays $31 an hour for workers to do nothing? I thought the patriotism lingo was a no-go. Oh right, only when it’s a conservative invoking it.
Your argument about pensions is the same that is made about Social Security/Medicaid. And the answer is the same – THEY’RE BANKRUPTING THE PAYERS! Guess what, if there’s no company to pay that pension, what good does it do you? If there’s no money left in the Treasury, what good does that entitlement do you?
I’ll say it here- unions are the sports agents of industry – not worried about insuring decency, but simply concerned with getting their clients the best deal.
So much disconect with regular people who didn’t go to college or don’t work in white collar jobs.
Okay Wellsy, let’s start with your red herring. I didn’t say people were unpatriotic if they weren’t interested in supporting a job bank for workers —–I didn’t say anything at all about a job bank. What I did say was that I thought it was not okay for a company to fail to keep a promise because it is now inconvenient to do so. It has nothing to do with being a patriot, it has to do with character. Secondly, I didn’t say anything about social security and your comparison is faulty, most tax payers pay into this system and if it is to survive, then I think that even those people who can pay for their own retirement should pay into the system so that it doesn’t collapse and people who have nothing else won’t starve. What’s next with you? Debtor’s prisons? Oh that’s right, hooray for me and screw you, right!
Debtor’s prisons? Come on, now, let’s not be rhetorically silly. You’re the one who called us “sunshine patriots, shame on us.” I don’t hold it against you, I’m just saying.
I fully understand that it might not be OK for a company to fail to keep a promise because it was inconvenient. Apparently, though, we’re beyond inconvenient – it’s survival at this point. I don’t like the thought that all these manufacturing jobs are in jeopardy, but let’s be honest about how they got that way – through horrid mismanagement, terrible trade and environmental policy, and yes, through unsustainable union demands. I don’t want my tax money being thrown down that drain. If Detroit had a modern-day Iacocca, asking only for a loan and paying it back early, I might have more confidence. Sadly, with current auto and union leadership, I have none.
Also, I don’t hate union workers, jwm. I know they work hard. But so do I. And I can’t be expected to support them financially.
I AM a blue collar worker. Not all blue collar workers work for Unions. How does bailing out the Union help me or other blue collar workers in right to work states? Why are we left out of these bailouts? I feel like it is I that am hated just because I don’t work for a union. Why do you hate me?
Again, jwm, it’s not viciousness, it’s frustration at being asked to support someone else. Blame it on management, unions, government – bottom line, I drive a Chevy, it’s not my fault the Big Three are tanking. Supposedly we are all hurting in these rough economic times, so to take from one “hurting” group to give to another “hurting” group makes no sense to me.
I’ll say no more. I don’t bear you ill will, as I think you must have family in the auto industry, jwm. Understand a lot of us aren’t looking at this with hate towards the blue-collars, which I bet a lot of us here actually are – just a sense of “we can’t take any more of this.”
Sure the company should keep the promises they made, if at all possible. The taxpayers, however, are not the company.
If we’re honest, we can recognize that this “scab” mentality is much more real than any supposed hatred of blue-collar workers.
As an aside, which collar should I wear? I have a bachelor’s in science and make less than $20/hour as a med tech, so I’m not sure which identity politics I should be peddling.
I’m not really trying to push identity politics, just trying to get him to see that this isn’t about helping or hurting the “blue collar” workers. If it was really about blue collar workers they would lower taxes and reduce regulations, not bailout unions. That would truly help blue collar workers, this does not.
Ya know folks. If you would get rid of the 20 million illegals in this country, we all would be making more money and their wouldn’t be a need for unions.
It’s called supply and demand of labor.
I was being sarcastically facetious, Gianni. I agree with you.
Very true.
There are three major American enterprises that are controlled by unions:
1) Auto Manufacturing
2) Airlines
3) Education
Notice a common (FAIL) theme among all of them?
Think of all the trees that could be saved if the UAW ceased to exist.
We could have a “greener” America and save the Big three, too.
(Of course, replacing the 16,845 pages of the IRS code with the Fair Tax would save even more trees…)
annibal wrote:
Actually you appear to be quite the pompous one, I’m here to learn. Why don’t you stop patting yourself on the back long enough to enlighten the rest of us on this issue? Thanks, I look forward to learning from a real egotistical expert like yourself.
p.s. clue: I never proposed that the Big 3 adopt the government pension system.
shaming
Neither the private union nor government retirement plans can be maintained in a long term stable construct. Both are based on political decisions and not on sound economic principles. If you observer the average inflation and the world value of the dollar, both systems will eventually collapse. Both seem to me to be an extended legal “Ponzi schemes”.
GM management deserves nothing. In 2002, they decided to revamp their big SUV’s and trucks first to improve profits. The team that approved THAT blunder should be compensated with a swift kick. Chrysler owned by Cerberus group is a private investment firm; nothing for them. they bought knowing it was a pig in the poke. Ford ? I’m still up in the air with them…For now.
If I remember my paper handling days from “THE TRADE” that would be a little more then 2,000 sheets of copy type paper… Any questions about why TOYOTA turned a 17 BILLION DOLLAR profit, while GM managed a 39 BILLION DOLLAR loss the same year, on the same VOLUME of units sold???
This brings to mind Goodfellas … instead of composing it myself I just googled
auto bailout uaw goodfellas
If we bail them out, we’re just subsidizing the above behavior.
A parasite that kills the host is, indeed, a most unsuccessful parasite.
True Story:
In 1980, I was hired by GM to be an assembly engineer. I LOVED my job. I was at a plant that assembled the Cutlass Supreme back then. Today that plant makes the big SUV I drive, the GMC Yukon and Chevy Tahoe.
I worked for 3 model years improving the efficiency of my assigned trim assembly line. Through innovation, working with my tooling engineer, and frankly, busting up “settled” off line subassembly jobs, I was able to reduce my direct labor head count from 128 per shift to 95 per shift, and we only shipped 2 jobs down the line to another engineer’s section because of the need for more space when that particular job ended up putting on color trim instead of all black trim.
These “settled” off line subassembly jobs were ridiculous. Because the local union would drive hard bargains and threaten to strike locally (if that happened, the local plant manager and higher ups were usually fired), over time, more and more jobs were put off the assembly line and turned into solo subassembly jobs. The section I inherited when I was hired as an idealistic 25 year old engineer had several jobs where the settlement was barely 30 minutes an hour of work per hour. The average “online” time was about 38 seconds for a line that went by in 61 seconds.
The union played these games of claiming they were working way too hard, and they needed more people, and each section had to negotiate the head count each model year. Thus, the lines got stuffed with more and more workers, creating less and less efficiency.
Well, I took GM seriously back in 1981 when they told us we had to compete better with the Japanese plants and if we performed in our jobs well, they would no longer lay off salaried workers by seniority, instead they would lay off by performance. Since I was in a department of very senior employees who were very jaded by then, and no longer had the “fight” in them to buck these bad union settlements each year, I decided to take on the union in my section and create an efficient section and thus, save my job if there were layoffs.
So, over 2 model years, I was able to re-balance my line, break up these off line sub assembly jobs and put those parts back on the regular line, and get my average job content up to about 48 seconds per 61 seconds a car went by. 50 seconds was considered a “full job” because if a car came by with a lot of options, you had to allow for the occasional extra work for the extra options. The production planners would space those cars out between “regular” cars, so it would balance out for the workers.
For my efforts, I had to fight the union really hard in negotiations with NO backup from management. Management basically threatened me that if I didn’t have my job content grievances settled within 3 weeks, I would be fired. I was instructed to give them whatever they wanted. Remember, this was during a time with the imports were kicking GM’s ass in market share.
Well, I managed to get my union stewards to blink first. I was able to settle the jobs to about what I wanted. I saved the company about TWO MILLION dollars a year (in 1982 dollars) in direct labor costs (we had 2 shifts, I saved the company 66 jobs paying a ridiculous amount of money in wages). I got a high performance evaluation. I thought was had proven my worth to the company in the only job I ever loved in corporate america.
Well, January 2002, our plant lost line speed from 58 cars per minute to 45. We still had 2 shifts. Our department was staffed by the number of direct labor jobs in the factory per shift. So when we lost people per shift instead of a whole shift, then our department lost 4 of its 25 engineers.
Because my performance evaluation was higher than 20 of those engineers, I thought I could believe the company when they said they would layoff by performance. Instead, they laid off by seniority, right down the line. I was out. I knew it would be a long layoff and I would not be able to afford to wait around on unemployment for times to get better and I would be called back. It was a 15 month layoff, and by then I had moved on.
So, this is the cancer that has been pervasive inside GM all these years. They stifled innovation from their lower level employees like me. They rewarded complacency. They cowered to the union. No one at the local level seemed to care about the bigger picture of being globally competitive for long term employement and prospecrity.
That is when I learned my lesson that generally corporate america sucks big time and they basically lie to their employees when they dictate HR policies like “layoff by performance” and instead change the game when it came down to it and made it a “first in, first out”, leaving less qualified and indifferent employees at the job who were satisfied with the miserable status quo.
So I am very ambivalent about this bailout. I am infuriated that the unions won’t wake up and understand how dire their straits are. But why would they? They have never recognized it before. I love my Yukon and will be devastated if I can’t buy a new one when my 120,000 mile 2003 model needs replacement (runs great, great car). I am a totally free enterprise type of entrepreneur now (gave up on corporate america for the last time in 1991, it sucks). I am pissed at Congress for bailing out Wall Street and waffling here, but I don’t support this bailout either.
This is all such a mess, but unfortunately, it doesn’t sound like anything has changed in the 26 years I have been gone from this industry. And to think, if I had never been laid off from that job, I would still be doing it. Buidling cars was so much fun.
Here’s the way I see it…
With the tons of rules and regulations on the industry, put in place by the Gov’t, and the additional tons of rules and regulations, put in place by the unions, the industry has already been effectively “nationalized”
I can’t see how any amount of “restructuring” of the industry, without restructuring the rules and regulations of Gov’t, and Unions, would ever amount to anything.
Has anyone figured out how much it cost just to have attornies draw up a 22lb “turkey” contract?? What could they possibliy have to say that takes that many pages?
How many lawyers does it take to read and understand those 2215 pages?? This is totally out of hand on both sides. This just proves that the entire situation is totally out of hand and someone needs to let it die the ignominious death it is calling for.
Karenhasfreedom: you are so correct. Efficiency is NOT encouraged in todays world–it is about power. A Supervisor for every 11 workers was the “norm” that the gov’t was trying to force on their departments 15 years ago what was it in the public sector? My first supervisory position I had 25 employees in the 70’s. I was effective and efficient and in banking. “Management theory” has reduced that ratio over the years which has done NOTHING for the bottom line for any company only created the mega-corps and insolvency we see now.
CONGRATULATIONS on YOUR accomplishments even if your corp was too stupid to keep you. I hope you have taken that initiative and moved to better things.
Thanks ByChoice. Actually over the past 2 years, I was tapped to be CEO of a startup green energy company. Hopefully Obama’s peeps won’t mess things up and over incentivize the wrong things in this industry. We are moving along in our business plans with no expectations of government incentives or subsidies to help us out. We figured out what sandbox we can go play in successfully, on our own, and have the bottom line of our projects prove themselves on the merits alone, without any governmnet help. God save us all from government help. Our company was virtually at a stand still during the 7 months it took to get through the FINRA process for public trading. That was a nightmare. Again, more unresponsive government bureaucracy standing in the way of businesses moving forward who are trying to grow and create jobs.
That’s crazy talk! Who would clean the houses and mow the lawns of our elected officials?
I work for a large Union supermarket chain int he Northeast. Our Union has attempted and succeeded in getting employees jobs back who were caught on camera stealing.
At my store the worst employees to work with are the follow the CBA types. They will not even put up a “wet floor” sign by a spill if it is not in their official duties.