Bon voyage, Jihad Cindy McKinney; Update: Israeli Navy turns back S.S. Moonbat

By Michelle Malkin  •  December 30, 2008 12:36 AM

Scroll down for updates…Cindy’s ship intercepted and turned back after crashing into Israeli Navy gunboat…

Move over, Hanoi Jane Fonda. Jihad Cindy McKinney is sailing to Gaza to deliver medical supplies to Hamas.

Is it a one-way ticket? We can only hope. Via the AJC:

Former Georgia congresswoman Cynthia McKinney is a high-profile member of a boatload of activists that set sail Monday from Cyprus to deliver medicine to war-torn Gaza.

McKinney, who ran as the Green Party candidate for president, sees the voyage as a humanitarian mission, said her father, former Georgia state Rep. Billy McKinney.

“Her mother did not want her to go,” he said, referring to concerns at home for her safety. “But I think that certain people have missions in life and you can’t deter them.”

The activists, organized by the Free Gaza Group, said their 66-foot yacht called “SS Dignity” would defy an Israeli blockade of Gaza and ferry 16 activists and three tons of Cypriot-donated supplies. The supplies are intended to help treat the wounded from Israeli bombings against targets in Gaza, in retaliation for rocket fire aimed at civilians in southern Israeli towns.

Flashback: Cynthia McKinney’s Arab and Islamist Donors

***

Update 5:22am Eastern. Carl in Jerusalem reports that the S.S. Moonbat has been turned back by the Israeli Navy…

The yacht carrying former US Congresscritter and Green Party Presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney tried to outmaneuver an Israeli navy gunboat off Gaza Tuesday morning. The yacht rammed into the Israeli gunboat, which then turned it around and sent it back to Cyprus.
Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said the boat ignored an Israeli radio order to turn back early Tuesday. He said the boat tried to outmaneuver the navy ship and crashed into it, lightly damaging both vessels. The navy then escorted the boat to the territorial waters of Cyprus.

Protest boat organizer Derek Graham said the Israeli ship “rammed” the protest boat.
According to the ‘Free Gaza’ website of the boat’s organizers (which I will not grace with a link), the boat is now headed to ’safety’ in Lebanon.

More from Haaretz.com.

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  2. Hit the road hag! Cynthia McKinney sailing to Gaza with relief supplies to help those filthy Palestinians! | Fire Andrea Mitchell!
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  6. This ain’t Hell, but you can see it from here » Blog Archive » Ship of Fools turned back
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  8. ButAsForMe! » Bon voyage, Jihad Cindy McKinney; Update: Israeli Navy turns back S.S. Moonbat
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Comments


  1. #579497
    On December 30th, 2008 at 12:47 pm, RabbidSquirrel said:

    “Our mission was thwarted by the aggressiveness of the Israeli military.”

    I’ll refer back to a comment I made in a previous post and add another lesson learned from my time in the military.

    1) Dont F#%@ with the Israelis
    2) Steel hurts

    Regarding overwhelming force and Rules of Engagement dictated by lawyers. I’m not a big fan of raping, pilaging, torture or mutilation. That may be a little excessive. But I am all on board with a scorched earth policy. Collateral damage… oh well.

    Its kind of like watching a martial arts Black Belt getting their a$$ kicked by a street fighter or a group of teenagers[male and female] (yeh Ive seen that happen). When the opponent isnt playing with YOUR rule book, then you are probably going to lose. There are no timeouts or do-overs when someone is out to kill YOU.

    ===========
    Sidenote: I would like to trademark Hexadecimals. You all can go ahead and use binary and decimal notation with your pansy numbers.

  2. #579498
    On December 30th, 2008 at 12:48 pm, rightwingrocker said:

    I’m surprised Sheehag wasn’t on the boat with her.

    RWR
    http://www.rightwingrocker.com

  3. #579500
    On December 30th, 2008 at 12:49 pm, pianoman said:

    To add to my post above, it would seem the Israelis have a grasp of this. If our military fought our wars instead of politicians, I suspect we would as well.

    @RWR: I questioned McKinney’s patriotism long before today. As for her shipmates, the old saying, “if you lie with a dog, you get up with fleas” comes to mind.

  4. #579507
    On December 30th, 2008 at 12:53 pm, nail49 said:

    TMT said: If you are squeemish about it then you can’t be an effective military leader.

    No squeamishness on my part. Just this last weekend someone saw my jacket with the patches I wore when serving. I was asked if I ever killed anyone. My answer, “Only those trying to kill me.”

    Churchill did exactly what he had to do in order to preserve the secret of Ultra being “broken.” I would submit a commander has to act similarly and keep his people at risk when threatened by a sniper so as to not cause unneccessary collateral damage. That is a tougher decision to have to make rather than the “overkill” put forth by sonfody and supported by you.

    Go to the opening scene of “Saving Pvt Ryan” when Hanks is directing his men as they assault a German bunker on the Normandy beach. Should he have held his men back (not put them at risk) so they would survive and hope someone else could destroy the bunker? No, he took a calculated risk knowing some of his men wouldn’t survive so that the greater number would!

    sonofdy said: Like I said, court marshal me

    No need to, you would be relieved.

  5. #579508
    On December 30th, 2008 at 12:53 pm, rightwingrocker said:

    Well, since Obama appears to be Bill Clinton Term 3, I would guess it would depend on what your definition of what the word “Aid”, “Comfort” and “Terrorist” are.

    Not to mention “to” and “a” … and “giving” (maybe we should have left that last one out …).

    RWR
    http://www.rightwingrocker.com

  6. #579526
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:07 pm, TooMuchTime said:

    My Dad was one of those guys on his way from the ETO to the Pacific to continue the good fight and, fortunately, ended up being a part of the occupation forces instead of the invading forces.

    My father had just completed 30 missions in B-17s over Germany when the war in Europe ended. He came home and was slated to begin flight training in B-29s, which would have supported Operation Olympic. The dropping of the atomic bombs and Japan’s surrender probably saved his life and gave me mine.

  7. #579527
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:09 pm, sonofdy said:

    No need to, you would be relieved.

    Sure :roll:

    I would submit a commander has to act similarly and keep his people at risk when threatened by a sniper so as to not cause unneccessary collateral damage.

    So you would let your people die to avoid POSSIABLE collateral damage. Like I said, screw that, My guys are getting out. If that means I have to jail so be it. BTW deployed twice. If a sniper engages my guys we will respond with the heaviest weapons we have until my guys are out of the kill zone. You can feel all superior while explain to your mens loved ones how they died so that you could get a sniper up to engage the other sniper when you could have saved the loved one by engaging the sniper with a 25mm or a 50 cal. I HATE barracks room lawyers.

  8. #579529
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:10 pm, nail49 said:

    My father had just completed 30 missions in B-17s over Germany when the war in Europe ended

    My late father-in-law completed one and a half missions in B-17’s because he got shot down in the ETO in Sep of ‘44 and was captured. While being marched from Stalag Luft IV (Poland) he escaped and was repatriated by British armored forces. He weighed 82 pounds at the time!

    Salute to the Greatest Generation!

  9. #579531
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:11 pm, rightwingrocker said:

    @RWR: I questioned McKinney’s patriotism long before today. As for her shipmates, the old saying, “if you lie with a dog, you get up with fleas” comes to mind.

    I never acknowledged she had any.

    RWR
    http://www.rightwingrocker.com

  10. #579533
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:14 pm, rightwingrocker said:

    Salute to the Greatest Generation!

    Indeed.

    Especially with stories like that!

    RWR
    http://www.rightwingrocker.com

  11. #579536
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:15 pm, Jet Jaguar said:

    Cinthia McKinney = The Seahag

  12. #579538
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:18 pm, nail49 said:

    I HATE barracks room lawyers.

    I’m not an attorney, just a fighter pilot and yes, I have seen guys die from having ROE constrain what we could and couldn’t do! I could have brought more firepower to bear than you can imagine and maybe felt good about that, but I know I wouldn’t be bringing any honor on my country by “overkilling” everything and everyone who happened to get caught in the “frag pattern.”

    If a sniper engages my guys we will respond with the heaviest weapons we have until my guys are out of the kill zone.

    So, call in the B-52’s and blow everyone up and let God sort them out?

    A lone sniper will not kill everyone in a patrol IF they play it smart. Usually a sniper makes a single kill and exits the area knowing he is now the hunted and wants to return another day.

    Like I said, there are ways to make certain the sniper will NOT strike again without killing a LOT of innocents.

    Sure

    Will a barracks room attorney defend you?

  13. #579542
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:22 pm, RabbidSquirrel said:

    Taliban militants are beheading and burning their way through Pakistan’s picturesque Swat Valley,

    Can anyone refresh me on what the Geneva Convention or the Rules of Engagement for beheadings are. Or for the Taliban itself?

    Is the Hague set up for Hate Crimes, Crimes against Humanity, Atrocities, Torture, etc that the Taliban or Al-Qaida perpetrates? Is the UN or the Paki government going to kill or arrest them? Or is this Bush’s fault and so they get a pass….

    Is self-defense for a beheading allowed? Or are you commiting a crime if you kill someone that is going to behead you, because they havent beheaded you yet?

    Maybe if we just LOVE them more then they will get along with everyone else in the world. OR we could just get them some REALLY COOL Che Guevara T-shirts and caps!!

  14. #579544
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:24 pm, jamesgreenidge said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 10:15 am, Debbie Schlussel said:
    For the record, I coined the moniker “Jihad Cindy”

    Respectfully, I think I heard that term being slung around on talk radio in New York just very shortly after Cindy began her mourning mom rant trek.

    James Greenidge
    Queens, New York

  15. #579548
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:28 pm, BKennedy said:

    “You don’t win wars by being the poor bastard dying for your county, you win wars by making the other poor bastard die for his.” ~George S. Patton.

    I’m sure there’s a similar quote along the lines of: “You never win wars with proportionaite force; an enemy only knows the war is over if they are defeated disproportionaitely.”

    The only response to terror is a crushing, overwhelming, irresistable force.

  16. #579551
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:32 pm, love2rumba said:

    Perhaps now the SS Stupid Liberal will run aground and meet up with the folks from “Gilligan’s Island”…it should make for an interesting reality show.

  17. #579552
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:32 pm, Mark said:

    Well, since Obama appears to be Bill Clinton Term 3, I would guess it would depend on what your definition of what the word “Aid”, “Comfort” and “Terrorist” are.

    I was thinking it was more like Jimmy Carter redux with a side of Clinton. The Clintonistas serve two purposes; they bring the inner-party enemy to camp, and they make it appear that Jimmy Carter … err … Barry Obama is moderating himself.

    This of course means the enemies are: U.S.A., Israel, Republicans, Christians, Conservatives, Free Markets, Free Speech, Free Thought, Free Press, and anyone who sides with any of these.

  18. #579555
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:36 pm, happyscrapper said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 11:38 am, rowsdower said:
    I’m using an analog computer–excuse me- I have to go replace 312 pots and dials today.

    You must have a newer model than I do. We had to add on a room to our house to keep those huge computer tubes in. Every day, one or two of them burn out and have to be replaced. But it is worth it…I really love my computer, and wouldn’t part with it for the world!

  19. #579556
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:36 pm, RabbidSquirrel said:

    A lone sniper will not kill everyone in a patrol IF they play it smart.

    Ever read about how World War I Medal of Honor recipient Alvin York wiped out a German Squad?

    ” At one point, a squad of German infantrymen popped out of a nearby trench and charged York with fixed bayonets, looking to impale him with pointy death like a kebab at a barbecue cookout in Hell. York had just fired the last round of his clip and didn’t have time to reload, so he whipped out his badass Colt M1911 .45-caliber service pistol and opened up on them:

    “I teched off the sixth man first; then the fifth; then the fourth; then the third; and so on. That’s the way we shoot wild turkeys at home. You see we don’t want the front ones to know that we’re getting the back ones, and then they keep on coming until we get them all. I knowed, too, that if the front ones wavered, or if I stopped them the rear ones would drop down and pump a volley into me and get me.” ”

    =====

    LOL, maybe he should have been court-martialed for not letting them have a chance to surrender or call for a humanitarian cease-fire.

  20. #579558
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:39 pm, nail49 said:

    The only response to terror is a crushing, overwhelming, irresistable force.

    BKennedy: Granted, that will get their attention, but just as the Russians discovered recently in Georgia, it doesn’t do much for your image and probably got more people to be “Ag’in ya” rather than “Fer ya!”

    Sometimes an elegant, very visible but very controlled attack can accomplish so much more than “nuking them ’til they glow in the dark!”

    I’m thinking a smart bomb through the roof af a “safe house” fits the bill very nicely. Those bad guys not at home learn from their dead compatriots that there is no “safe house” and they are likely to be next. At the same time, those we wish to join our side cooperate by pointing out just where the next smart bomb should go!

  21. #579559
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:39 pm, chapoutier said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 12:30 pm, On-my-soap-box said:
    ZOMBIE!

    Cue chap!!!

    I am pretty sure I would risk banning if I threadjacked another post with talk of zombies.

  22. #579565
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:45 pm, CantCureStupid said:

    I don’t know, there is a certain satisfaction that comes with a crew served weapon.

    HOOAH!!

  23. #579567
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:49 pm, nail49 said:

    Ever read about how World War I Medal of Honor recipient Alvin York wiped out a German Squad?

    York was an infantryman faced with an overwhelming force and he actually was attacking a German position that had pinned down his unit.

    During this action, he had to kill or be killed. He was not a lone sniper firing from a concealed position on single soldiers.

    Although he killed some two dozen Germans he allowed over 100 to live as they did take the opportunity to surrender.

  24. #579571
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:52 pm, On-my-soap-box said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:39 pm, chapoutier said:

    I am pretty sure I would risk banning if I threadjacked another post with talk of zombies.

    UMMMMMMMMMM, didn’t you just do that? ;)

  25. #579574
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:53 pm, happyscrapper said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:28 pm, BKennedy said:
    “You don’t win wars by being the poor bastard dying for your county, you win wars by making the other poor bastard die for his.” ~George S. Patton.

    I’m sure there’s a similar quote along the lines of: “You never win wars with proportionaite force; an enemy only knows the war is over if they are defeated disproportionaitely.”

    The only response to terror is a crushing, overwhelming, irresistable force.

    I agree. And I really believe we should bomb the heck out of the entire Pakistani/Afganistan border region. We would kill a lot of villagers, but they are protecting the terrorists, including bin laden. If we just swoop in and destroy the entire area, we would probably get a LOT of the bad guys. Pakistan hates us anyway, so I say, go for it. And no, this isn’t sarcasm. I am serious.

  26. #579577
    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:55 pm, tpitman said:

    Why didn’t McKinney just use her fat butt as a fender to deflect the Israeli warship, thereby enabling their glorious cause to attain fruition and save the poor beleaguered Hamas ‘Freedom Fighters’ from all enemies of Allah? I think the Israelis are doing the terrorists a damn big favor, and at considerable expense, by whisking them on their way to paradise and their rendevous with those virgins.

  27. #579579
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:01 pm, Mark said:

    How to apply “proportionality” in war: Nagasaki, Hiroshima. War over, ‘nuf said.

  28. #579580
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:01 pm, sonofdy said:

    I guess I am a follower of Patton and 49nail is not. I pity any of the troops under his command.

  29. #579581
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:01 pm, RabbidSquirrel said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 1:49 pm, nail49 said:

    true, I was going to your point about the ‘patrol’ not being smart. I also doubt that many kids these days have the weapon skills (without being trained as an actual sniper) to calmly pick off enemy combatants.

    Even gangbangers, while having overwhelming fireposer, are very poor marksmen. I wouldnt have any problem taking on a gang member with a AK while I only had a HK45. (being realistic of course)

  30. #579583
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:03 pm, BKennedy said:

    nail49:
    BKennedy: Granted, that will get their attention, but just as the Russians discovered recently in Georgia, it doesn’t do much for your image and probably got more people to be “Ag’in ya” rather than “Fer ya!”

    Sometimes an elegant, very visible but very controlled attack can accomplish so much more than “nuking them ’til they glow in the dark!”

    I’m thinking a smart bomb through the roof af a “safe house” fits the bill very nicely. Those bad guys not at home learn from their dead compatriots that there is no “safe house” and they are likely to be next. At the same time, those we wish to join our side cooperate by pointing out just where the next smart bomb should go!

    When I say a crushing, overwheliming, irresistable force, I’m not talking about bulldozing an entire geographic area. What I mean is this:

    If they have leaders: Kill them.
    If they have safe houses: Destroy them.
    If they have training camps: Infiltrate them, then hunt down the trainers and supplant them from within.
    Take prisoners for intel. Kill them when they are no longer useful.
    Hunt every last one of them down until none are left standing.

    Let them know that opposition means total annihilation: from without, within, or if necessary, above.

    Let them know that terrorism means death. A brutal, pointless, inevitable death. Tell them you shoot bullets dipped in pig’s blood, and launch grenades with pig entrails if you must. Those who die for terror are not martyrs, but cowards.

  31. #579584
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:04 pm, sonofdy said:

    I’m not an attorney, just a fighter pilot

    Ah that explains it. An officer and a gentleman. Things look a LITTLE different from the ground when you are under direct fire from the enemy.

  32. #579591
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:10 pm, Leatherneck said:

    Hey Cindy,

    Just hang a right, and stay in the land of your fathers. Your not welcome here anymore.

    Over

  33. #579598
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:18 pm, sonofdy said:

    Its also the difference between an officer and an NCO. Officers have thier uses like filling out paperwork….. ;-)

  34. #579601
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:23 pm, tre said:

    The only response to terror is a crushing, overwhelming, irresistable force.

    I’ve always heard that, if you’re in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

    Roy Boehm, the founder of the Navy SEALs said, “The Marquis of Queensberry was a fag.”

  35. #579602
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:24 pm, John Deaux said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:04 pm, sonofdy said:

    I’m not an attorney, just a fighter pilot

    Ah that explains it. An officer and a gentleman. Things look a LITTLE different from the ground when you are under direct fire from the enemy.

    The amount of civility is directly proportional to the distance from the action.

    They want us dead. They’re expanding. At some point they will be in a position to eliminate us. Will we still have our civility when people are dying on our shores?

  36. #579605
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:27 pm, rightisright said:

    obviously the yacht was misnamed…“SS Dignity” ? with her and her moonbats on board.

  37. #579606
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:27 pm, RabbidSquirrel said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:18 pm, sonofdy said:

    Officers have thier uses like filling out paperwork….. ;-)

    Queue the O’s rallying round their brethren in 3…. 2…. 1….

    My dad could never figure out why I wanted to be a snake eater rather than come back to base after a long flight every night and have steak, a warm bed and maid service.

    The only time he really got irate at me was when I went enlisted USMC. :lol:

  38. #579616
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm, sonofdy said:

    When I joined the infantry, my mother literaly said I was going to die.

    Well eventualy she will be right. Nail49 has the right attitude if droping cluster bombs, but will get alot of people killed if he were leading a patrol on the ground. Nail49, my second mos is 13f, forward observer. Part of my job was calling in air strikes. I have 3 mos’s now 11B, 13F and the glorious 88M. The 3 most dangerous MOS’s in Iraq I believe.

  39. #579617
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm, nail49 said:

    happyscrapper, TMT, BKennedy and sonofdy:

    You each obviously believe that we must “stomp out” everyone who threatens us while not caring about the consequences.

    “Laws are inoperative in war.” was a comment by Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 B.C.). That may have been true for Imperial Rome, but now we must consider whether or not a war involves national survival (WWII) or not (Vietnam, Korea). Unfortunately, the rules in each case are different since our way of life will be gone in the one case, but not the other. In the “survival” case, we may have to “get down and dirty.” In the other case, we don’t have to, although bringing a gun to a knifefight has its advantages — you might not even have to pull the trigger more than once!

    I would submit our nation is not currently at war, our military is at war. Most Americans just want to text their friends and drink their Starbucks coffee.

    Until that changes, we cannot afford to go around bashing everyone and everything that gets in our way just so we feel better about our cause.

    Yes, we have to protect our warriors but that doesn’t mean we can indiscriminately kill everyone in an area where bad guys are shooting at them.

    As we have learned many times over, winning the “hearts and minds” is just as important as winning the battle!

  40. #579621
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:40 pm, sonofdy said:

    In the “survival” case, we may have to “get down and dirty.” In the other case, we don’t have to, although bringing a gun to a knifefight has its advantages — you might not even have to pull the trigger more than once!

    Thats the difference between us. In my military job it is always the survival case. We are not at 30,000 ft. We are at 50 ft.

  41. #579624
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:42 pm, AniMEL said:

    Why couldn’t the Israeli ship just sink ‘em? It’s not like they didn’t have justification. Now they’re gonna send ‘er back here so we have to listen to her BS again.

    That woman is a couple french fries short of a happy meal.

  42. #579625
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:42 pm, sonofdy said:

    Yes, we have to protect our warriors but that doesn’t mean we can indiscriminately kill everyone in an area where bad guys are shooting at them.

    Bringing maximum firepower to bear on an enemy doesn’t mean you “indiscriminately kill everyone in an area”

  43. #579634
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:46 pm, AniMEL said:

    Nail49, I don’t think anyone wants to stomp out everyone who threatens us, but those who actually have done damage? I’m all for killin’ every one of them and all those who hide them. We are well aware that most Americans just wanna text their buddies and drink their Starbucks, but pretty soon that’s gonna have to change whether we like it or not. It may be a rude awakening, but it’s coming. When it happens they’re all gonna realize one big truth: when at war, you have to keep killing the bad guy until they beg you to stop. It’s the only way to get your point across. It’s how we won WWII.

    Sonofdy…Hooah!

  44. #579635
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:47 pm, RabbidSquirrel said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm, sonofdy said:

    forward observer

    Whaz up! In my day we called it being a human tripwire…

  45. #579644
    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:52 pm, sonofdy said:

    Forward observer not LP-OP. Artiliary Observer. But I prefered being in a COLT team. More fun, but now I am in second in command of a trucking platoon. Thats part of being in the reserves, if you move, you quite often have to change MOS’s. All of my active time was in the infantry.

  46. #579654
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:04 pm, nail49 said:

    The 3 most dangerous MOS’s in Iraq I believe.

    sonofdy: Good on ya! I salute your service.

    BTW, I was a Forward Air Controller in Vietnam, we represented about 3% of the Air Force in SEA, but accounted for over 10% of AF pilots KIA and with two MOH’s — both posthumously. How does that stack up with your MOS’s?

    Things look a LITTLE different from the ground when you are under direct fire from the enemy.

    Direct fire from 23, 37, 57, 85 and 100MM guns all aimed at a single target overhead the fight in plain sight, not hunkered down in a foxhole, is a LOT different than small-arms fire. BTW, I had a Russian mortar turned against me one day when I broke a TIC by shooting my Willie Pete’s into the bad guys because I couldn’t get any fighters overhead. The ground commander told me to be careful as the bad guys weren’t shooting the mortar at them anymore, but were trying to hit me!

    Ever had an SA-2 shot at you? Think of a smart telephone pole bent on destroying you and approaching at supersonic speed. Or maybe an SA-7? Another fun thing to dodge while trying to help the good guys deal with the bad guys trying to overrun their position!

    Nail49 has the right attitude if dropping cluster bombs, but will get alot of people killed if he were leading a patrol on the ground.

    My intention was never to lead a patrol or drop cluster bombs. I have been suggesting the actions we should take should a sniper start shooting at our forces. When killing the sniper could kill/wound a lot of innocent people, we have to consider a more measured response, not crush everything in sight, no matter how good that might make us feel.

    The amount of civility is directly proportional to the distance from the action.

    Bullets (of varying sizes) flying past your canopy don’t care if you are 100 feet or 3000 feet from the muzzle, they will kill you just as dead!

    Officers have their uses like filling out paperwork

    Yeah, those worthless officers who hang over the target sipping their champagne and eating caviar while the grunts get nothing but MREs and ditch water!

  47. #579660
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:10 pm, nail49 said:

    We are not at 30,000 ft. We are at 50 ft.

    I operated anywhere from 1,000 to 6,000 feet above the terrain and lower when required to “get ‘er done!” In a TIC, the primary threat was small-arms, but the larger guns (see my post # 230) could get much higher than I could fly, so it didn’t matter, you are just as dead.

    Bringing maximum firepower to bear on an enemy doesn’t mean you “indiscriminately kill everyone in an area”

    You suggested a TOW or a 25MM gun on a single combatant where the likelihood of collateral damage was greatly increased. That can get pretty indiscriminate.

    I’m all for killin’ every one of them and all those who hide them.

    So am I, but we don’t need to kill a lot of innocents at the same time.

  48. #579672
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:16 pm, sonofdy said:

    nail49: Clearly a pilot will know little about ground conditions, just like I am not likely to have an sa-2 or sa-7 fired at me. So I am not going to advise you on flying. In that same line of thought, I would not follow you advice on clearing a room or dealing with a sniper. The tactics you have suggested here, TRUST ME, would end up with more dead gi’s and no dead sniper. The guy would be at home eating dinner by the time the QRF would get there.
    Perhaps we need to stay in our own lanes.

  49. #579674
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:17 pm, wighttrasch said:

    They want us dead. They’re expanding. At some point they will be in a position to eliminate us. Will we still have our civility when people are dying on our shores?

    John Deaux, did you hear Netanyahu speak on the news this a.m.? CBS will not show the entire transcript, but he said something like ‘how are we supposed to react to those who have avowed our (Israel’s)destruction–and yours I might add?’

    Good for Netanyahu. Funny how the cindy mckinneys of the world forget that.

  50. #579675
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:19 pm, sonofdy said:

    You suggested a TOW or a 25MM gun on a single combatant where the likelihood of collateral damage was greatly increased. That can get pretty indiscriminate.

    Dotrine for engaging troops over 900 meters with a bradley is to use the 25mm. But anyway, I would still use any fire power avaiable to supress the sniper. It only makes sense.

  51. #579681
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:23 pm, nail49 said:

    Perhaps we need to stay in our own lanes.

    sonofdy:
    Agreed. I won’t try to tell you how to clear a room, you can leave the flying (and paperwork — cheap shot) to us pilots.

    But I can tell you a TOW or 25MM on a single sniper does not make sense when the chances of collateral damage are high.

    Why can you not accept a withdrawal from the area and let other capabilities make sure that sniper never eats another meal at home?

    No QRF required. His chances of living to shoot again are getting slimmer by the hour.

  52. #579682
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:23 pm, nail49 said:

    Perhaps we need to stay in our own lanes.

    sonofdy:
    Agreed. I won’t try to tell you how to clear a room, you can leave the flying (and paperwork — cheap shot) to us pilots.

    But I can tell you a TOW or 25MM on a single sniper does not make sense when the chances of collateral damage are high.

    Why can you not accept a withdrawal from the area and let other capabilities make sure that sniper never eats another meal at home?

    No QRF required. His chances of living to shoot again are getting slimmer every time he moves.

  53. #579683
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:24 pm, nail49 said:

    My bad for the double post — Sorry!

  54. #579687
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:28 pm, sonofdy said:

    But I can tell you a TOW or 25MM on a single sniper does not make sense when the chances of collateral damage are high.

    The lives of my troops rates more concern to me than any level of collateral damage. You also underestimate the acuracy of those weapons. A good gunner can pick which mouse to shoot at a mile, at night, with the 25mm, while moving.

    and paperwork — cheap shot

    Not in the army!!! he he

    Why can you not accept a withdrawal from the area and let other capabilities make sure that sniper never eats another meal at home?

    Because it allows the sniper a chance to kill again. Like I said, it ensures at least one more dead gi.

  55. #579688
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:29 pm, nail49 said:

    Dotrine for engaging troops over 900 meters with a bradley is to use the 25mm. But anyway, I would still use any fire power avaiable to supress the sniper.

    OK, I’ll venture into your lane again…Engage a single shooter with a 25MM? That is like calling an Arclight on a single bicycle on the Ho Chi Mihn Trail!

    Why not suppress his fire with small arms until clear of the area and kill ‘em like I’ve already outlined — while he is drving home with his buddies. You will get more than one operator and you can do it when and where you wish, not on the roof of a children’s hospital — where this thread began.

  56. #579692
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:31 pm, John Deaux said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:17 pm, wighttrasch said:

    John Deaux, did you hear Netanyahu speak on the news this a.m.? CBS will not show the entire transcript, but he said something like ‘how are we supposed to react to those who have avowed our (Israel’s)destruction–and yours I might add?’

    Good for Netanyahu. Funny how the cindy mckinneys of the world forget that.

    Netanyahu gets it, but few else do. A whole lot of people are going to die before people realize that genocide is their goal.

  57. #579697
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:34 pm, nail49 said:

    Not in the army!!! he he

    On behalf of my late father, Col, US Army, retired and combat (field artillery) veteran of WWII, Korea and Vietnam, I take great offense at that comment. He was a mustang, if you know what that is, but regardless, he was a soldier first and foremost.

    I can defend myself, he no longer can.

    I am assuming you meant to be funny, but you failed miserably.

  58. #579698
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:35 pm, sonofdy said:

    At 900m, the coax is not acurate anymore, so you engage troops with the 25mm with HE. Standard gunnery question. And yes, I would engage with the 25mm on a single shooter to save my guys life. Its called supressive fire. If I had an abrams, I would use the 120mm. In ground warfare, massive overwhelming fire saves the lives of us troops. That to me is the highest consideration after mission achievment.

  59. #579703
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:39 pm, sonofdy said:

    He was a mustang

    Former enlisted who became an officer. An exception to the rule since most were nco’s before they were officers. Don’t be so sensitive. Each has thier role, the officers order and the ncos make it happen. Officers in the army do spend a majority of thier time on paperwork so the nco’s don’t have to. at least till they get up to the e7-e8 range.

  60. #579709
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:43 pm, nail49 said:

    Former enlisted who became an officer.

    Give the man a cigar!

    However, you impugn every officer with your comment. A former neighbor of ours (and classmate with my Dad at Leavenworth) was awarded a battlefield commission at Anzio. He went on to be the CJCS — Jack Vessey. Did he do his paperwork properly and that is why he became Chairman?

    Your attempt at humor failed miserably!

  61. #579710
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:44 pm, pdv said:

    I am so mad at the Israeli’s. After all we’ve done for them, they couldn’t do just one little favor for the US. Why or why couldn’t they have placed a nicely aimed round and sunk the SS Moonbat! Davy Jones is looking for new crew members.

  62. #579711
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:44 pm, sonofdy said:

    Oh get overyourself nail49

  63. #579723
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:50 pm, nail49 said:

    get overyourself

    Why, because you choose to take sophmoric slaps at those who happen to lead?

    Do you say (to their faces) that the officers in command of your unit only do paperwork?

    If anyone needs to get over themselves, I would suggest you take a look in the mirror.

  64. #579728
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:53 pm, Paul said:

    Hope Cindy lies down in front of a bull doser.

  65. #579731
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:56 pm, wighttrasch said:

    Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here! This is the war room!

  66. #579732
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:57 pm, chapoutier said:

    Why, because you choose to take sophmoric slaps at those who happen to lead?

    Do you say (to their faces) that the officers in command of your unit only do paperwork?

    If anyone needs to get over themselves, I would suggest you take a look in the mirror.

    Based upon my military experience (i.e., watching Good Morning Vietnam, Full Metal Jacket, Predator and A Few Good Men), I would think officers are pretty used to and good natured about taking ribbings from enlisted men about being “pencil pushers” or what have you.

  67. #579734
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:59 pm, sonofdy said:

    Back on topic (let nail49 have the last word) Mckinney should really try to co-ordinate with the IDF instead of going head to head with them.

  68. #579735
    On December 30th, 2008 at 3:59 pm, nail49 said:

    Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here! This is the war room!

    Ah, yes! President Merkin Muffley at his finest in an hour of great struggle!

  69. #579737
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:01 pm, On-my-soap-box said:

    Chap,

    if those 2 keep at it, we could use some good zombie posts (or is one threadjack per thread enough?). :lol:

  70. #579738
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:02 pm, GaMidnightRider said:

    Do we have to let them back into the country now ? Can we bribe someone to keep them ?

  71. #579740
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:03 pm, chapoutier said:

    Chap,

    if those 2 keep at it, we could use some good zombie posts (or is one threadjack per thread enough?).

    Zombies are SOOO yesterday, soap. Now its Jeri Ryan. Try to keep up with the latest trends.

  72. #579741
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:06 pm, sonofdy said:

    I am done with the nco vs officer fight. Back to gaza.

  73. #579747
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:09 pm, John Deaux said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:03 pm, chapoutier said:

    Chap,

    if those 2 keep at it, we could use some good zombie posts (or is one threadjack per thread enough?).

    Zombies are SOOO yesterday, soap. Now its Jeri Ryan. Try to keep up with the latest trends.

    I’ll bet Jeri has an AK and a flamethrower to kill the zombies while she’s hiding in her bunker in Iceland.

  74. #579756
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:17 pm, On-my-soap-box said:

    Jeri Ryan; my two favorite subjects!

  75. #579764
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:25 pm, happyscrapper said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm, nail49 said:
    As we have learned many times over, winning the “hearts and minds” is just as important as winning the battle!

    Um, no it isn’t! If you haven’t figured it out by now, let me clue you in. There is NO winning the hearts and minds of terrrorists! Geez!!!

  76. #579766
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:26 pm, MrVIBEMAN said:

    They were turned back! All I can say is…..HAHAHAHOHOHOHAHA!!!

  77. #579767
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:27 pm, nail49 said:

    I would think officers are pretty used to and good natured about taking ribbings from enlisted men about being “pencil pushers” or what have you.

    Chap: As a “Fly-boy” I have engaged in good-natured ribbing with members (officer and enlisted) from each Service about their particular specialty, be it a “Grunt” a “Squid” or a “Gyrene.” Those ribbings are harmless fun with plenty of give and take.

    What gets under my skin, and it was done in earlier posts on this thread, are the digs about not being “in the fight” because aviators fight from an airplane. I have seen too many planes shot down and tried to rescue fellow pilots down in “Indian country” only to see the effort fail to then be told that we are not “in combat.” When the bullets are flying upwards and there are no trees, bushes or rocks to duck behind, it certainly feels like combat to me!

    Granted, we do go home to bed at night, but oftentimes we do so knowing one of our own is on the ground where he can’t reach out and find a buddy who is in the same situation.

    Rather than movies, read a non-fiction book about flying and fighting –try “Ravens” by Christopher Robbins, “Danang Diary” by Tom Yarborough, “A Lonely Kind of War” by Marshall Harrison and “The Rescue of Bat 21″ NOT the movie, the book, by Darrel Whitcomb.

  78. #579770
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:30 pm, nail49 said:

    There is NO winning the hearts and minds of terrrorists!

    happyscrapper: I never said we should try to win the hearts and minds of the terrorists, but if we follow some of the earlier suggestions (carpet bombing, taking out a sniper on a hospital roof with a TOW missile, etc) we will lose any chance of winning the hearts and minds of the general populace!

  79. #579774
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:34 pm, AlohaGuy said:

    Wait – you had an SA2 fired at you?

  80. #579775
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:36 pm, nail49 said:

    you had an SA2 fired at you?

    AGuy: Yes, in Vietnam.

  81. #579776
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:37 pm, chapoutier said:

    Rather than movies, read a non-fiction book about flying and fighting –try “Ravens” by Christopher Robbins, “Danang Diary” by Tom Yarborough, “A Lonely Kind of War” by Marshall Harrison and “The Rescue of Bat 21″ NOT the movie, the book, by Darrel Whitcomb.

    That seems like a lot of work. If I can’t learn it from Iron Eagle or Top Gun, is it really worth knowing?

  82. #579779
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:40 pm, sonofdy said:

    Well tom cruise does get his information directly from the galatic over-lord xenu.

  83. #579787
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:46 pm, nail49 said:

    If I can’t learn it from Iron Eagle or Top Gun, is it really worth knowing?

    I guess not if you don’t mind having cartoons provide your view of reality.

    “Top Gun” was entertaining, but it wasn’t an accurate depiction of aerial combat. Iron Eagle was sheer fantasy. Unfortunately, the IMAX movie “Fighter Pilot: Operation Red Flag,” although good, is more entertainment than reality.

    As fun as they are to watch, they get into too much Hollywood “action” that is neither realistic nor “smart” from a survival standpoint.

  84. #579788
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:48 pm, nail49 said:

    tom cruise does get his information directly from the galatic over-lord xenu.

    You sure its not Pizza the Hutt?

  85. #579789
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:49 pm, happyscrapper said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:30 pm, nail49 said:
    There is NO winning the hearts and minds of terrrorists!
    happyscrapper: I never said we should try to win the hearts and minds of the terrorists, but if we follow some of the earlier suggestions (carpet bombing, taking out a sniper on a hospital roof with a TOW missile, etc) we will lose any chance of winning the hearts and minds of the general populace!

    You have a point there, I agree. But there are times when it is more important to just win the war and get it over with, than win hearts and minds. Dragging out a war takes more lives in the long run!

  86. #579791
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:51 pm, sonofdy said:

    You sure its not Pizza the Hutt?

    Only Xenu is powerfull enough to get the SS dignity past the IDF!!!

  87. #579792
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:52 pm, chapoutier said:

    I guess not if you don’t mind having cartoons provide your view of reality.

    Wait. What are you saying? Are you telling me that fighter pilots DON’T play volleyball and make homoerotic poses before rushing off on their motorcylce to the hot instructor/girlfriend’s house?

    My whole worldview has been crushed.

    Eff it all, guys. I’m going conservative.

  88. #579794
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pm, AmericanLit said:

    And Cynthia will get a Noble Prize for her calculated SS Dignity. Just wait and see. She’ll get a book deal from Random and an Indy “film-maker” from LA will make a documentary about her “civic” contribution. In United States of Deconstructed Cliché, the charlatans are now heroes. Wasn’t her father at Cornell University, some honorary professor of ghetto studies. The good, the wise, the genuine—they work hard. We suffer and live frugally while the privileged cultural terrorists (whether it’s Noam Adolph Chomsky, Jimmy Carter & Islamic Son, Inc., or Michael Eichman Moore) enjoy the good life we fight for. They roll in money. They don’t need to report weekly to Quality Assurance Manager. 80% of us have jobs that require excellent customer service. We don’t jet off to Monaco, we don’t get an invite to the Vanity Fair gala, and we don’t take time off to protest. We actually work. We are at the mercy of the 20% of America’s Anti-America Lords. Because we tolerate nonsense, we mutated into a sick Medievalist feudalist Euro country. As Jane Fond proved in ‘60s, elitist garbage wins, because the “corrected” system allows any imaginable freak to ascend to power. In South Korea they’ve been burning Israeli flags and awhile ago condemned American trade. Heck, the country is a mile away from the most oppressive regime and yet sides with terrorists. How do you explain the pathology? Both the liberal Gestapo and the Powellian Republicans have contributed to the decay of joy. When clowns like Cynthia Goebbels and Noam Goebbels get paid highly to propagate rubbish and when clowns like Chris Matthews, like Sean Penn, like Pat Buchanan repeat the same cliché we ain’t got no where to escape. Besides the irony and the jokes, I’d like Michelle to address the issue since it’s become overwhelmingly destructive: Why deranged “American” clowns filled with hatred, hiding behind clichés, are hailed, able to turn their hatred into money, while the rest, the good ones, those who believe in liberty and defeating the terrorist punished? In the Deconstructed American novel, I’m the loser, while the morbid clown siding with terrorist/excusing terrorist is a hero. Explain, please.

  89. #579795
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:55 pm, On-my-soap-box said:

    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:52 pm, chapoutier said:
    Eff it all, guys. I’m going conservative.

    It was in you all along. Now, about that Obama vote – REPENT!

  90. #579797
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:56 pm, nail49 said:

    I’m going conservative.

    Welcome to the Dark side, young chapoutier!

  91. #579800
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pm, nail49 said:

    Only Xenu is powerfull enough to get the SS dignity past the IDF!!!

    Never underestimate the power of the Schwartz!

  92. #579801
    On December 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pm, happyscrapper said:

    Eff it all, guys. I’m going conservative.

    Was that all it took? You must have already been on the verge! Welcome! Too bad I don’t believe you, but we will pretend.

  93. #579804
    On December 30th, 2008 at 5:01 pm, chapoutier said:

    Well now…lets not be too hasty. If it turns out that a a 16 year old kid COULD somehow manage to steal an F-16, fly it to an unnamed Middle East/North African country, rescue his dad and get back safely and also apparently not be thrown in prison, then my worldview, and thus faith in liberalism, would be restored.

    So…any of you out there ever done that?

  94. #579808
    On December 30th, 2008 at 5:03 pm, sonofdy said:

    So…any of you out there ever done that?

    You said an F SIXTEEN right? well not in an F SIXTEEN…..

    ;-)

  95. #579810
    On December 30th, 2008 at 5:05 pm, nail49 said:

    any of you out there ever done that?

    Flown one, yes.

    Stolen one, no.

    All the other things, only in my dreams!

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Categories: Cynthia McKinney, Israel



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