Obama’s recession remedy: Tax the poor!
It’s baaaack. Remember S-CHIP? The Democrats are racing their universal health care Trojan Horse through the House today and in the Senate by Friday. Yesterday evening after I filed my syndicated column (printed below) on Obama and the Democrats’ first massive tax increase of 2009, the 285-page text of the proposed S-CHIP expansion went online. It’s H.R. 2 and you can read the PDF in its entirety here — something a significant number of congressional members will not do before voting for the behemoth bill. The tax portion of the bill is broken out here (thanks to the Stogie Guys). Pelosi’s press release is here.
Every legal tobacco product from premanufactured cigarettes and cigarette papers to cigars to roll-your-cigarettes, pipe tobacco, and smokeless tobacco will be taxed out the wazoo. Take roll-your-own tobacco. It’s currently taxed at $1.0969/lb. The Obama/Democrat S-CHIP plan would hike that to $24.62/lb. Cigarette taxes would rise from $19.50 per thousand to $50.00 per thousand for small cigarettes and from $40.95 per thousand to $105.00 per thousand for large cigarettes.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi refuses to have an open debate on the bill. House GOP leaders lodged a protest. (But remember that 42 Republicans sided with Pelosi last January in a failed attempt to override President Bush’s veto.)
So much for transparency and openness. And so much for those promises to provide tax relief to “ordinary Americans.” As usual, Barry O was just blowin’ smoke:
Stay tuned. I’ll be keeping track of the non-debate debate today and the Trojan Horse Republicans who will get along, go along, and bend over. (Update: Liveblogging the floor proceedings here.)
***
My column…
Obama’s recession remedy: Tax the poor!
by Michelle Malkin
Creators Syndicate
Copyright 2008
“Everybody’s going to have to give,” President-elect Barack Obama warned over the weekend. And some people will have to give more than others – starting with low-income smokers. Democrats are rushing this week to impose massive tax hikes of at least 61 cents on every cigarette pack sold in America, in addition to new increases on other tobacco products. The money will fund a long-plotted federal expansion of the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP).
Yes, this is Dr. Big Nanny’s prescription for recession: Punitive tax increases on the poor to feed a universal health care Trojan Horse.
Obama and his liberal Democrat colleagues sure have a funny way of demonstrating “progressive” values, don’t they? Health surveys show that smokers are more likely to be blue-collar workers, minorities, and have less than a high school education. The National Taxpayers Union noted that tobacco taxes take a 50-times-larger share of income from those earning less than $20,000 than those earning more than $200,000. Put another way: Families making less than $30,000 per year pay more than half of all taxes paid on cigarettes, while families making more than $60,000 pay only 14 percent.
That’s the dictionary definition of “regressive,” not “progressive.”
And what will that money buy? S-CHIP, you’ll recall, is the joint federal-state program that covers health insurance for children and families at or near the poverty line. Over the past two years, President Bush and the Republicans took a rare, fiscal conservative stand against widening eligibility criteria far beyond the working poor. Democrats wanted to be able to enroll families with incomes at 300 or 400 percent of the poverty level – adding an estimated $35 billion over five years to the existing S-CHIP funding costs.
Opponents of this Hillarycare-esque push were lambasted as cruel child-haters for arguing that the program should not be extended to include well-off families, illegal aliens, and single adults. They were attacked as heartless penny-pinchers for questioning the wisdom of subsidizing the S-CHIP expansion with a dwindling and unstable funding source (smoking is on the decline and cigarette tax revenues are shrinking). Left-wing comedienne Joy Behar called me a “b*tch” on national television for reporting that the Democrats’ poster family for S-CHIP expansion to cover the “poor,” the Frost family of Baltimore, owned middle-class assets including two properties and three cars.
But if these do-gooders truly cared about The Children, they’d be cursing mightily over the squandering of current S-CHIP funds and the cheating of the very children the program was intended to help. State data analyzed by the Department of Health and Human Services reveal that 13 states spent more than 44 percent of their S-CHIP funds in 2008 on people who are neither children nor pregnant women. Michigan topped the list with more than 70 percent of its federal children’s health insurance funds earmarked for adults who have no kids.
In New Jersey, people earning as much as $295,000 were enrolled in its S-CHIP program dubbed “NJ FamilyCare.” Like many states, New Jersey failed to check eligibility for all program enrollees and refuses to do stringent assets tests. As I’ve noted before, the refusal to do assets tests on federal health insurance programs is why federal entitlements are exploding and government keeps expanding. After an audit found that the program had paid $43.1 million to participants without knowing if they were eligible, Assemblyman Richard Merkt, R-Morris observed that it “called into serious question the state’s competence to run health insurance programs.” Multiply that by 50 states.
How will the Democrats prevent such fraud? I’d give you more details about the Obama/Democrat tax hike on the poor to expand children’s health care coverage for the non-poor and non-children, but as of Tuesday afternoon, there was no legislative text available. And no hearings are planned before the expansion is rushed through for Obama to sign. The Wall Street Journal did report that Democrats plan to lift decade-old restrictions to allow legal immigrant children to tap into S-CHIP. (Open-borders activists hope it’s the camel’s nose under tent for illegal alien applicants.) But there’s no word on whether (or how) citizenship eligibility requirements will be strengthened. The Democrat leadership hasn’t responded to Republican entreaties on that issue, either. Hurray for the deliberative process.
What I can tell you for sure is that the S-CHIP expansion is a rest stop on the road to a universal health insurance entitlement, built on the backs of overtaxed, low-income workers. (Listen to Democrat Tom Vilsack admit it openly here.)
Welcome to the era of “shared sacrifice.”
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The joke is on Congress. I quit a 3 pack a day habit on Dec. 23, 2008.
Oddly, I received a call from a temp agency for work at Texas Children’s Hospital in Houston. TCH handles CHIP claims. I wonder now if they are trying to man-up in anticipation of this waste of money.
Houston is notorious for helping illegal aliens, so I would not be surprised if they’re helping enroll illegals onto this program.
The hypocrisy is that the government wants everyone to quit smoking, yet their tax revenues depend on people who buy tobacco. It’s the same in Virginia, where a large part of the budget depends on tobacco tax. It’s a safe way to increase taxes; taxing something that is unpopular. What about alcohol? According to their philosophy, maybe DUIs will go down if they tax alcohol through the roof. Yeah, right. Not a chance. Of course a person would have to be a idealistic dreamer to think all this government spending won’t affect their own income. This is only the start. Next up, probably business taxes. You know who pays business taxes, right? The consumer. Eventually, blaming everything on Bush, income taxes will go up. People will have less to spend. Businesses will let workers go because of the economy downturn. Government will continue to interfere to “prop up” everyone. And, we’re right back in the ’30s again with the politicians pointing fingers at everyone else for the problems.
I would recommend to all to read the list of greivences against King George that is in the Declaration Of Independence and see how many apply to our current(and shortly to become current) group of politicians. My representative is a Republican and I have no effective representation in the House of Representatives because of Queen Nancy’s recently passed ‘Rules’ which somehow has escaped all media attention. When are we going to rise up and say enough is enough? I am willing to support one candidate for our governor only if she is willing to become the first President of the Republic of Texas in 100 years.
SCHIP has been abused for years. I had an employee years ago whose children were on SCHIP. Both he and his wife (gov’t employee) worked and both had health insurance through their jobs. Because they would have had to kcik in extra money to cover the kids they put them on SCHIP. In his case it would have been about $25/week (total for both) that was taken from his gross pay not net pay, because of the 125 plan. He thought it was great. I asked him what about the kids who needed it but couldn’t because his kids took their place, he didn’t care. BTW he did last long.
Entitlements, what the gov’t uses to buy votes. I think its time to remove the ability to vote for those who receive more than 25% of their income from gov’t entitlement programs.
I just hope that a whole lot of the people who voted for him are smokers.
Well, I wouldn’t worry too much about the poor who are going to see their tobacco products taxed more heavily. They’re going to be getting a bigger income tax “refund” (welfare payment) once Obama’s “cuts” their taxes, so everything will be a wash.
The real people being stiffed will be those of us who aren’t “poor.” Yet. Either our taxes will increase to pay for all this government spending, or we’re going to see a return of inflation (with a vengeance).
Time to get my seed order in. Going to hold onto my hat and increase the size of my garden this year.
The reason why North Carolina is a haven for terrorists is because of the money they make buying tabacco products there and selling them in liberal bastions such as New York. You can thank democrats, taxing something out the wazoo creates black markets. A black market feeds money into organized crime. Repubs may be bad, but Democrats really don’t give a rat’s a$$ about the people. Smoke and mirrors as long as I get your vote.
The S-CHIP looks and smells much like the COW CHIP.
No hearings, no real debate. It’s hard to believe we are talking about the deliberations of the 111th United States Congress, are we really observing the 1st gathering of the San Fran Nan’s Politburo?
Ha! The poor get their taxes hiked, and the proceeds go to pay for health care for the affluent. Hope and change, baby!
And then, when people quit smoking because they can’t afford it and revenues go down — just like they did with high gas prices — they’ll freak out because they’ll need more money for the chillllllldddddddrrrrrrrennnnn!
How does it work with these bills being passed while Dubya is still POTUS?
can senate withhold them until obambi has the pen? can Dubya veto them?
I just don’t recall this being done in my lifetime.. lil help please
I had the same question.
MM,
VERY good article you are back to old form, nice to see
Fam,
I just don’t get it. In one breath obambi is demanding Dubya and dems pass
more TRAP funds and yet the land bill and this one potentially will be passed and held back for obambi?
has this ever been done b4?
sigh
I am not adjusting to this Post America amerika well…
Up next, the return of the Death Tax, the tax the super-rich avoid through estate planning, but that murders small businesses and farms.
They are reaching a critical mass point on taxing tobacco products. Very soon, it will reach a pain level where people just can’t afford it anymore, leading to increased illegal trafficking of tobacco (smuggled in like cannabis, illicit drugs, etc.) and/or people just quitting (I say this as a smoker). If that happens, tax revenues go down, not up. What happens then? What will be the next “vice” cash cow to fund bloated health care programs? Alcohol (bad for your liver)? Chocolate/sweets (bad for your teeth)? Caffeine (bad for your blood pressure)?
Minnesota leads the nation in giving 92% of its SCHIP funds to adults.
I was recently appointed as a member of our home owners association. The protocols are completely different than the last three boards I severed on. As a result I’m completely lost. This is a small group with only four miles of roads and 123 homes, with a private sewer and water system. Running our small association demands dozens of hours of study. Our federal government has become so large and complex, I’m not sure they know what their proper protocol is. I’m not sure they even understand our constitution.
The Constitution is slowly dying, and only a few people seem to care. It and the “Bill of Rights” have been so misinterpeted and maligned, that it doesn’t exist anymore, the way the FF wanted it to exist. The former is ignored, or, when confronted with it, is dubbed “living and breathing”. The latter has been so “pc’d”, one wonders if it really exists anymore. The 10th amendment is a good example. Any government hates restraints on its power. Like a racehorse in the gate, it bucks, until released. To be a “good” citizen, one must watch the “nightly propaganda” at 6 p.m., and be more interested in what new movie is out or who the next fool will be on “American Idol”. Dumbing them down, diverting their attention, and filing them with slogans achieves the goal of total control. Eventually the Constitution will be deemed as “unworkable” and “ancient” in the “modern” 21st century and filed away.
Fam,
I got C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity
from library ( actually got the audio as well as the book ) anyway it is a book I have meant to read for some time.
If you have never read I def reco it and if you have well worth the reread the preface alone is poignant.
I refer you to his discussion on the word “gentleman” and toss the word
American in…..
Gray,
post election I question the need to dumb down some it seems to come natural and oddly coupled with pride
graysonret:
Dumbing them down, diverting their attention, and filing them with slogans achieves the goal of total control. Eventually the Constitution will be deemed as “unworkable” and “ancient” in the “modern” 21st century and filed away.
SPOT ON!
The key words are enumerated rights. Our constitution gives all rights to the people, or to the states, that are *not* enumerated rights. The left has used the term “living constitution” in order to push whats called Positive Law which is contrary to the FF intent of Natural Law. I’ve been lambasted on this blog by trolls for even bring up the subject of Natural Law. Until we return to our original constitutions intent, I fear all will be lost.
The only partial solution to the controls the federal government is pushing on the American public is the “fair Tax”. Until people are hit in the face with the realities of the true cost of their government , they will continue to remain uninvolved and ignorant. The “fair Tax” is constitutionally correct and removes much of the corruption that is now imbedded in the present system.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
FamilyMan:
Oh, they gave up on that a long time ago.
What the democrats have learned is that they need to keep raising taxes on the poor to keep them from getting rich. They follow this by giving them government handouts. This keeps them a good, reliable democrat voting bloc.
Dead right, Sea_Dog! I have done that in the past myself and it is scary. And remember, folks, this is just the beginning of the liberals’ power grab. We ain’t seen nothing yet.
Gird Your Loins! (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
Don’t the public schools demand an understanding of the constitution as a requirement for graduation? Forty five years ago is was mandatory.
Of course a 500% tax on ammo could also fund it. You know the one that obama the fraud said he wouldn’t impose? (No, I am not giving them ideas. Trust me)
This is only the beginning. We are already only the 6th most free economy in the world, I guess we want to try for number 100!!!
I have and nearly all of the grievances fit our current situation.
Damn scary!!!!!!
My favorite grievance to King George is……
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
FamilyMan:
No, that’s been replaced by an understanding of Das Kapital and the veneration of Che.
Remember that the Constitution was written by a bunch of dead white guys some of whom owned slaves. Thus they have no street cred and needed to be thrown under the bus.
If any of them DO understand the Constitution they resent it. They do not like the limits it puts on Government, the Rights it enumerates for individuals and the fact fact it was written by now dead white guys who for the most part believed in Natural Law (GOD).
President Elect Obama himself called our Constitution a “Bill of Negative Rights”. The man is certainly more in tune with Marx than Madison, Adams or Jefferson.
Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer, Boxer, Waxman and thousands of others NEED to kill the Second Amendment to finally get rid of the Dead White Guys Constitution. Have you noticed the American Civil Liberties Union has never defended an individual against the BATF&E on a Second Amendment issue?
Cigarettes have been the whipping boy of the politicians for years. In Chicago, a pack now cost in the neighborhood of $8, and $10 in machines. And you can’t smoke them indoors. Cigs cost more in North Carolina too now, and the cheapest used to be in South Carolina (around $20 a carton. I pay $20.05 a carton in south Georgia at the moment, since Winston cut their carton price by 1/3 a couple of months ago for some reason. I remember being in LaGuardia three years ago or so and finding cigarettes cost $8 a pack in airport shops and you couldn’t smoke them ANYWHERE. I guess you had to eat them.
I’m for lower taxes in general, but I’m all for raising the taxes on cigarettes.
Smoking produces no positive effects on society, but it does harm society in many ways. It ruins the health of millions, increases our healthcare costs, makes workers less productive, harms those nearby, hurts the development of children raised in such environments, etc.
What is the trade off? Some people enjoy the feeling of polluting their bodies.
Yeah, don’t think that evens out.
Texhoma…me too, about ten months before you. You’re right in the worst of it now when you quit, but it gets better soon. Hang in there buddy. The biggest for me motivator was money. I ate lots of candy and chewed gum. Chantix works. Hooray for Pfizer and big Pharm!
Hey Congress, try taxing EX-smokers for the imputed value of the cigs they didn’t buy!
Tax non-smokers for the imputed value of the cigs they don’t buy due to government sponsored anti-smoking jihads.
I loath Congress.
On huffpo yesterday a couple of thier best and brightest said the economic crisis could be averted by
1/ Printing 2 trillion dollars now. This would be ok because we would make the fed a government bank. This would of course avoid the whole laws of supply and demand thing.
2/ RETROACTIVELY tax the wealthy at 95% all the way back to 1965.
Thier best and brightest.
The fact that this would take effect on April 1st should tell us something!
The Second Amendment is under serious assault.
Dems seek to require mandatory licensing and firearm registration for all qualified weapons, which includes all handguns. License required for guns already owned. 2 years prison for possessing without a license, or for moving without change of address, or letting license expire, 10 years for selling a gun to an unlicensed citizen.
A requirement for firearm licensing, than dragging of the feet in granting them, is one way DC denied Heller his right to keep and bear.
Unconstitutional? As any normal person reads the Constitution. But let Justice Kennedy not sleep well before oral arguments, or let any one of the four Constitutionalists on the SCOTUS die in the next four years, and the Constitution means whatever a Marxist who has criticized the Constitution for not giving guaranteed rights to government, wants it to mean.
Again, McCain was double pneumonia, Obama is end stage lung cancer. One would have been really bad, one will be absolutely terrible.
WOW, complaining about taxes on SMOKES… Pinch me, I must still be sleeping… Where was this report 10 years ago, when they were taxing SMOKES to the MAX… Well, not enough people are smoking now, and you are correct, the majority are in BLUE COLLAR ranks… Ahhh, but be patient… When they find out they can’t get enough of your money out of SMOKES, look for the FAT TAX… To be sure, they are going to get your money one way or another…
Now that scares the hell out of me. He also wishes to introduce a new bill of rights of government guarantees. It’s obvious Obama doesn’t have clue about human nature and will press for these changes in his quest for utopia.
Thats a 2400% tax increase. That has to be some kind of record.
Should we tax that, too.
Just pointin’ out the obvious…
Sounds like Congressional sponsorship of prohibition. And just like liquor, cigarettes like drugs will become an item for putting money in the hands of criminals. So here in the plan. The US manufactures make cigarettes, ship them to Mexico, the Mexican Cartels buy the cigarettes, smuggle them across the border and sell them to Americans. How utterly stupid.
Sorry Michelle, I just cant support this argument. Smoking tobacco has so many bad affects on individual health that I cannot empathize about ciagarette taxes for anyone who smokes, rich or poor.
When we were paying $.75 a gallon for gasoline the Brits were paying $4.00+ a gallon to pay for National Health Care-which includes dentistry. In Britain a dentist is paid by patient. One bad mouth would take him -dentist-all day. Obviously he can not afford to take care of the worst cases so he avoids them. Rather bad teeth on a lot of Brits.
Brush and floss-IF Obama does not tax tooth paste and floss, bad teeth coming to you from our enlightened class. That would be very expensive bad teeth. But with the new gas taxes you won’t go very many places to show off those bad teeth so that may help.
That every man be armed-you too ladies.
#46 Taxes on condoms, birth control pills and abortions?
Don’t think that sacred cow of the Demonratic Party would be touched.
If they could figure a way to tax church attendance or abstinence, however…
That is just the response Dear Leader is hoping for.
I don’t smoke either, can’t stand the smell of it in crowded rooms, but I don’t think the alternative is to turn tobacco into the new cocaine with cigarette boats evading the revenuers late at night in our coastal waters.
FamilyMan – find yourself the best real property attorney you can find and ask him/her to give you some perspective on your covenants, preferaby the attorney who wrote them. I found it was worth the money. Believe me, there at at least a few shrewd homeowners who have studied all the loopholes and will try to exploit them. Fore-warned is fore-armed.
This have been going on for many years. The market will always try to circumvent government regulations.
I sold a fair size business a few years ago because of the government regulations. Unless you are big enough to afford an operations manager, a good part of your time is taken up with compliance instead of providing a competitive produce or service. The new owners ignore at their peril, these government mandates and are constantly skirting the law. Cigarette tax increases will force others to do the same.
Ed – It’s the “You made your bed, you lie in it,” argument, nothing more.
Absolutely not!
I detest smoking. But I am against selective taxation simply becasue a product is “evil”. Want to raise taxes on tobacco, a legal product. Fine, raise it on Big Macs, Beer, Butter, Chips, Soda, etc. Those all cause obesity and raise medical costs. And why stop there. Tax the Internet. It causes people to sit for extended periods of time when they could be out exercising. It goes on and on.
The ultimate revenge against this plan is to quit, plain and simple. I wonder if those Obamaniacs like their “change” yet? Once a tax-and-spend lib, always a tax-and-spend lib.
If you remember the Hillary health plan, you and your doctor would be fined $10,000 if you chose to go to someone other than the government mandated practitioner. Even if you could afford it and didn’t want government coverage you would be fined for making your own decision.
Those for rasing tax on tabacco, just wait, this is only step one.
Beacuse cigarette smoking is one of the worst, if not the worst, things you can do to your health, period. And because it costs billions of health care dollars. Dollars which the poor use.
Yes son, your “slippery slope” will most likely come to pass. I still think the “you make your bed” argument is a better one, this time. Besides, with a dem pres and congress, higher taxes are a safe bet.
If it’s soooooooooo bad, than the government should make it illegal. Because the government provides some health care, this argument is used for things like seat belt and helmet laws. Once you give your life over to the authorities, you will loose more and more of your FREEDOMS.
If this is fact a lead-in to nationalized health care, look very closely. No where do you see “health” promoted in any way, shape, or form. All we will get is much more of the same, i.e.: the bucks keep rolling to the same old people, in the same old way, getting the same old, & very lousy health of our citizens. We have about the worst health care (except perhaps trauma care) in the world. Don’t agree?
At one time, the WHO ranked the U.S. as #39 in the world on the list for quality care, based on what you get for the money. (currently 2 trillion & climbing) We were behind nations such as Cuba & Rumania. We are about 5% of the world population, but use better than 50% of the world’s drugs. In the case of ADD & ADHD, our kids use 80-90% of Ritalin type meds. Scripts for them are being written for infants!! Are U.S. kids that whacked out, that young? Senior citizens average at least a dozen scripts each. All are “indespensible.” We are a drug crazed society that turns to them for every slight, bump, bruise, moment of doubt, fear or regection. This society has become infested with supposed victims, whiners,& those that just don’t know any better, who’se problems can only be soothed by drugs. Health care? Not a chance. Drug care to cover it up, push it down the road so the next drug can be used? 100% chance. Failing health, dependency & tremendous monetary expenditures will be the continuing result. I know this from 24 years of private practice. If you’re don’t agree or aren’t sure about this, look up the stats yourself.
I am surprised by many comments from those who think that it’s OK for the Federal Government to take more money from Americans just because “smoking is bad for your health”. Why is it that some people care about what someone else does with their body?
I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have a vice/habit/hobby. If we let the government get away with sin taxes, then it will be OK for luxury taxes, fun taxes, alcohol taxes, etc. This is just the beginning of the high price we all will pay for letting liberals run the federal government.
OT:
Pseudo-conservative (good on life issues, but pro-illegal immigration and economic populist) who stayed in race long after he was defeated to draw votes from Romney to help his good buddy McCain must be planning a 2012 run.
Huckster takes Couric’s side in Palin debate issue.
From page 8 on how much they want to spend
The first year spending goes up 18%?!?! And we’re talking BILLIONS here, folks. BILLIONS!
And the tax rate on cigars balloons rapidly. From page 271:
and the kicker comes on the very last page:
They’re expecting this to cause a black market. All I see is Indian smoke shops doing money hand-over-fist. Too bad they don’t do a study on a loss of Federal tax receipts due to Illegal Aliens in this country.
Who exactly do you think will stop them? They can do whatever the hall they want till at least 2010. Probably 2012.
We are just along for the ride. This time next week there will be no checks and balances in Washington DC. None. They will be able to do whatever the hell they want. You WILL pay thier taxes. You probably will not even see them coming untill they show up at the store. You may not ever even notice them.
Who do they think will be doing the smuggling? I would suspect the people that are smuggling contraband now, but that’s just me using deductive reasoning.
I lost both my father and stepmother, to cancer in my dad’s case and stroke in my stepmother’s case. Both were heavy smokers. That said, I am soooooo against smoking bans and usurious taxes. Why?, simple…… smoking is the emotional whipping boy for eons. Save me from the people who wish to maintain my health through taxation. I don’t buy into second hand smoke theories and such. Taxing habits and morals is stupid and wrong. Give up one freedom you open the door to other sacrifices and the door will never close.
These people are too stupid to learn from history, if they even bothered to read it.
At the same time the Attorney General of New York releases information that United Health Care, has been ripping its insurees off by underpaying 28 percent ILLEGALLY. Yet he give them a 50 million dollar slap on the wrist, and then prevents the victims from sueing them.
We have a crappy health care system, and the Dems will just make it crappier. To clean it up we have to eliminate the AMA monopoly. The AMA is no better than the Labor Unions or the Chamber of Commerce.
Socky said:
Unlike sex/prostitution, it is legal to sell cigarettes in all 50 states. How can you put a tax on something that is already illegal to sell?
Just pointin’ out the obvious…
I am sorry for your lost. I saw my father die in the VA Hospital with Emphysema. His room was FILLED with cigarette smoke coming from the old vets who insist on smoking wherever they please, helping kill my father sooner.
I am sorry, but no Smoker has a right to cause me to inhale their smoke. Thank goodness I don’t have to put up with that smoke on airplanes any more.
This SCHIP, tobacco taxes, more government regulation are just a few more in the thousand cuts that will kill us. Each cut is small, causing us to bleed and hurt only a little bit. Each cut never heals but is only added to the rest. Over time it will kill the USA.
So when this forces people to stop smoking, or turns cigarettes into a black market how will SCHIP be funded? Just like those big oil windfall taxes are going to fund all Obama’s hopey change?
Agreed, however laws about second hand smoke can handle that. 2400% tax increases will bo nothing but inflate costs for all. Which will also btw cost jobs in tabacco producers.
jjmurphy said:
I don’t want to tax it because it is “evil,” but because it brings massive harm (even to those who do not choose to participate) without any real benefit. It is truly a cancer on society.
Obesity is a problem, but dealing with the smoking issue is much simpler. The fact is burgers, fries, and sodas do provide some actual utility to society – it can keep you alive.
You can live off of that stuff – I know because I grew up eating junk like that because my parents didn’t teach me proper nutrition (as an adult, I have since improved my eating habits). And no, I have never been obese.
The tax comes in the form of a large bureaucracy that is need to regulate the substance or action that is illegal.
Government needs to get the hell out of our lives.
GEEES!!!!!!!!!
orlandocajun said:
That sounds much like the argument defending abortion. The answer is, it doesn’t just affect your body.
The fact is, smoking creates a serious cost on those who wisely choose not to smoke. People who smoke take more sick days. Many who smoke are constantly begging for a “smoke break,” reducing productivity.
And because we live in a civil society, we try to help those in need. Which means we all end up paying for completely unnecessary health costs so someone can selfishly indulge themselves.
Why should I have to pay for your vices?
Here’s what I don’t understand about the DC crowd and Obama, in particular, this was tried and found unworkable in his home state of Hawaii. They abandoned it because it became too expensive.
It’s my life DAMMIT. I find myself increasingly doing what the government wants and not what I want.
Does the pursuit of happiness mean anything to you folks?
Excluding second-hand smoke, it only cost taxpayers money because of government healthcare costs. If the government weren’t in the insurance business (medicare/medicaid, etc.) the smokers would only cause financial harm to themselves and their families. Regrettable, but their own fault. And, watch, the government will use healthcare costs to justify any number of future taxes and regulations on everything, even though they have no constitutional authority to do so.
By the way, I am NOT defending smoking in any way. I also watched my father die from lung cancer. It was a horrible experience.
You shouldn’t. That is why government health care is so dangerous.
FamilyMan said:
Put my quotes back in context, please. Your post has no relevance to mine.
My point was in response to the failed point that, if we should raise taxes on cigarettes because it is harmful, then we should tax promiscuous sex.
Since Obama wants to raise taxes on vices, does that mean there should be a sex-tax on abortions?
Except for the employees of the tobacco industry who do benefit from it.
Smoking is bad for you, certainly; but further allowing the government to intercede on personal choices is a bad idea. Should we go back to prohibition? Many die each year due to drunk driving. The line gets gray when you start talking about food, but I doubt many of us here would be shocked by an attempt to raise taxes on junk food.
jjmurphy said:
It also affects businesses. Smoking reduces productivity (increased sick days, smoke breaks, etc.). It increases costs for businesses, thus increasing costs for consumers, thus negatively affecting everybody.
Not to mention, it is really annoying “running the gauntlet” when coming out of a building. The stuff stinks, and clings to your clothes. Peeyoo!
Hmm… Sorry, Trollman. I might have also misinterpreted your point as it seems we’re on the same page.
Salt said:
No, abortions shouldn’t be taxed, murder should be illegal.
Salt said:
Hey, even drug dealers make a profit on selling cocaine. The profit gained by tobacco companies is “localized” and far outweighed by the resulting negatives incurred. They could make profit doing other things that aren’t a huge net negative for our society.
Alcohol is a different matter. People can enjoy alcohol, drink in moderation, and never harm anyone. Moderate drinking can even be good for one’s health. So alcohol isn’t a good comparison.
Then businesses should be free to fire smokers, and not hire any. In my thinking private business should be free to hire/fire anybody for any reason.
I agree with the awful cigarette smell from some places. When I smell that in a store I no longer shop at that store.
This whole argument is a great example of how government grows its power and control. You have something that a lot of people hate. The government see this and uses it for taxes and control. It can be, as in this case, tobacco. Even people favorably inclined to less government are OK with just this one tax, or tax increase. Then the government sees another opportunity elsewhere and the steady increase in taxes/control and the steady decline in freedom continues.
Am I making any sense to anybody?
jjmurphy
+1
Because they are black/female/gay/catholic?
Not criticizing, just curious.
Apparently my idea of a civil society differs from yours. Individual FREEDOM is paramount in my world view. If you need to live with discomforts caused by others, than that is one of the prices of freedom. Our country was created in order to create a “more perfect union”. NOT A PERFECT UNION.
How many times have you stood in line in a grocery store or quick stop and watched someone buy 2-3 cartons of cigarettes and a sugary drink and bag of chips for their kids? Yes, this tax will determine what food choices are made for the children by the same 300 lb. gorilla checking out and counting their pennies. Yes, the children will have medical care, and they’ll need it because of the poor food choices made by their parents. I don’t see them letting a little thing like $10 a pack cigarettes stop them either.
YES
Yes. And they must live with the consequences of their actions.
Trollman, and those who are for taxing cigs, I have a question. I would have agreed with you a year or so ago on the grounds of it being a public health issue. But here is my question: if the gov’t is relying on taxes from cigs for some program, doesn’t the gov’t then have a vested interest in making sure that people KEEP ON smoking? I can easily see the gov’t in bed with the tobacco companies, just to keep those revenues coming in. (If that’s not already the case, which it probably is.)
Also someone mentioned Chantix. My husband tried this and had terrible side effects. He did some reading, and there are some really scary stories about this drug. Just FYI if you are going to recommend it to people. It is kinda odd to hear a conservative say “yay big drug companies!”
But you wouldn’t think it acceptable government could discriminate in such a way, I would guess.
WHO CARES what anyone does with their vices? But for those who have already CHOSEN to smoke, I don’t cry that they have to pay higher taxes on their death sticks. They raise my insurance rates, so no sympathy for them.
The slippery slope argument doesn’t fly either. The dems are going to look for everything they can to raise taxes on and predictably they are stating with the sin taxes. What do you expect?
Save your outrage for the big stuff. It will come soon enough.
Bingo!!!!!!!
This is why I am against sin taxes. Ironically they like to CLAIM the money goes to the schools.
Agreed.