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1. #501
   On January 19th, 2009 at 3:11 pm, right4life said:

   do you understand the neutralist/selectionist debate in evolution…how about punctuated equilibrium?

   you don’t understand your own theory, obviously. do you want me to explain it to you??

2. #502
   On January 19th, 2009 at 3:18 pm, Trollman said:

   right4life said:

   what provine said is true. if evolution is true, christianity is false…plain and simple.

   Provine is going way beyond his area of expertise here, when he draws those bogus conclusions.

   My birth

   Take me, as an example. There is nothing miraculous or special about my birth. I was born to a fertile, mature heterosexual couple. I wasn’t even the first born. My parents were well within childbearing years when I was conceived.

   Furthermore, we know a great deal about how a mature male and female human create a new person, how the sperm & egg combine, create a single-celled organism, how that develops into a fully developed person, and so on.

   The same exact natural process happens however many times each day, all over the world, and has for however long. So we can safely conclude that there is absolutely nothing miraculous about how I came into existence.

   What does that say about me?

   Now, does all that mean I am not a creation of God? Does that mean I am less of a child of God than those that were created/conceived through a divine miracle, such as Isaac, Samuel, John the Baptist, or Adam? Not at all!

   Even though I wasn’t created by a divine miracle, I was created through divine providence. Where did the universe come from? Where did those natural forces come from? Where did the laws of physics and chemistry come from? They were created and established by God. God, in His infinite wisdom & foreknowledge, knew me before I was created through natural forces. Using nature (which He Himself created), He placed me in the time and place of His choosing (Acts 17:26-28), even though I wasn’t born through a miracle.

   How God usually works

   In fact, while the Bible records that God sometimes interacts with His creation through miracles, most of the time He interacts through divine providence. Babylon conquered Judah, not through miracle, but through normal means. Nebuchadnezzar probably had no idea he was being “used” by the God of the Jews, but he was, nevertheless.

   Just because the atheist historian might not think God had anything to do with the fall of Judah – in fact, he might falsely conclude that the fall of Judah disproved the God of the Jews – that doesn’t do anything to disprove that God was in fact behind the conquest of Judah.

   Why Provine is wrong

   Provine falsely concludes that a God who works in this manner leads to deism, which is effectively atheism. But the Bible teaches that God usually works through providence, not explicit miracles. If I pray to God and ask for something, and it comes to pass (though not through an obvious miracle), does that mean I shouldn’t thank God for answering my prayer? Just because God isn’t always obvious, that doesn’t mean He isn’t there. Nor does that entail deism, for the only reason why the universe continues to exist is because God continues to will it to be so.

3. #503
   On January 19th, 2009 at 3:26 pm, right4life said:

   Provine is going way beyond his area of expertise here, when he draws those bogus conclusions.

   please, provine speaks for evolution, in a way that you do not.

   how about miller, believe him a textbook??

   Darwin knew that accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. Darwinian evolution was not only purposeless but also heartless–a process in which the rigors of nature ruthlessly eliminate the unfit. Suddenly, humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, there was no divine plan to guide us.” (Biology: Discovering Life, by Joseph S. Levine & Kenneth R. Miller (1st edition, D.C. Heath and Co., 1992), pg. 152; emphasis in original)

   its plain and simple, evolution means no god, no need for a savior…this is what the professional evolutionists themselves say. why don’t you believe them??

   It was Darwin’s greatest accomplishment to show that the complex organization and functionality of living beings can be explained as the result of a natural process—natural selection—without any need to resort to a Creator or other external agent. (Francisco J. Ayala, “Darwin’s greatest discovery: Design without designer,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, Vol. 104:8567–8573 (May 15, 2007).)

   look where this is from….

   First, Darwinism rejects all supernatural phenomena and causations. The theory
   of evolution by natural selection explains the adaptedness and diversity of the
   world solely materialistically. It no longer requires God as creator or designer
   (although one is certainly free to believe in God even if one accepts evolution).
   Darwin pointed out that creation, as described in the Bible and the origin accounts
   of other cultures, was contradicted by almost any aspect of the natural world.
   Every aspect of the wonderful design so admired by natural theologians could
   be explained by natural selection…(Mayr, E. (2000). Darwin’s influence on modern thought. Scientific American, 283, 70-83, 81.

   Mayr is the man who came up with the neo-darwinian synthesis…what we know as evolution today..

   HE SPEAKS for evolution..in a way that few others, other than darwin, ever did….

4. #504
   On January 19th, 2009 at 3:27 pm, zeroangel said:

   right4life:

   why cast pearls before swine? look it up for yourself.

   Where? Which version? Every different religion has a different story, to include different branches of Christianity. On top of that ID is it’s own animal.

   Which one are we talking about?

5. #505
   On January 19th, 2009 at 4:12 pm, Trollman said:

   right4life said:

   please, provine speaks for evolution, in a way that you do not.

   Dr. Provine is an authority on the history of biology, but he is not an authority in philosophy or theology. The quote we are discussing aren’t points of scientific history, but philosophical/theological conclusions based upon science. I am pretty confident I have more background in philosophy, logic, & theology than Dr. Provine. He is out of his element here, and it shows by his easily refutable conclusions.

   right4life said:

   its plain and simple, evolution means no god, no need for a savior…

   I don’t follow the logic. Is it impossible for God to use evolution? God can create the universe in 6 days, but somehow it would be impossible for Him to do so over billions of years? That doesn’t make sense.

   right4life said:

   this is what the professional evolutionists themselves say. why don’t you believe them??

   That is what some evolutionists say, not all. I don’t believe them because I have investigated matters for myself and have reached a different conclusion. Evolutionists aren’t infallible.

   Dr. Miller, an “evolutionist,” does believe in both evolution and God – he is Catholic. In fact, he wrote a book describing how evolution and God are compatible and even complimentary.

   Nothing you wrote even addressed my points in my last post. In my post, I explained in length why their philosophical conclusions are false.

6. #506
   On January 19th, 2009 at 4:21 pm, right4life said:

   I am pretty confident I have more background in philosophy, logic, & theology than Dr. Provine. He is out of his element here, and it shows by his easily refutable conclusions

   so you’re a leading evolutionist??? please, you’re published, and recognized around the world as an authority on evolution??

   please.

   I don’t follow the logic. Is it impossible for God to use evolution? God can create the universe in 6 days

   obviously you do not. its rather simple, if we evolved by random processes, then no god created us, and we don’t need a savior…how hard is this??

   That is what some evolutionists say, not all. I don’t believe them because I have investigated matters for myself and have reached a different conclusion. Evolutionists aren’t infallible.

   then you have your own theory of evolution…some form of theistic evolution..which is NOT evolution. sorry. its not taught in schools, and dawkins, et al, would not buy it any more than I would.

7. #507
   On January 19th, 2009 at 4:26 pm, Trollman said:

   Sigh. Hey, I tried.

8. #508
   On January 19th, 2009 at 4:30 pm, right4life said:

   you need to try to convince dawkins et al, about YOUR theory of evolution…good luck.

9. #509
   On January 19th, 2009 at 4:30 pm, right4life said:

   trollman, do you believe the following is true?

   if we evolved by random processes, then no god created us, and we don’t need a savior…how hard is this??

10. #510
    On January 19th, 2009 at 4:46 pm, Trollman said:

    right4life, I’d be happy to answer your question. But why should I continue to answer your points when you refuse to acknowledge mine? You still have not pointed out any errors in my reasoning in post #502. If you are going to reject it, then point out the error, quote the precise location of my error, and explain why it is faulty.

11. #511
    On January 19th, 2009 at 4:54 pm, right4life said:

    right4life, I’d be happy to answer your question. But why should I continue to answer your points when you refuse to acknowledge mine? You still have not pointed out any errors in my reasoning in post #502. If you are going to reject it, then point out the error, quote the precise location of my error, and explain why it is faulty.

    I did, you think evolution is ‘theistic’ evolution…its not..you have your own theory of evolution, and its not what is taught in schools or believed by professional evolutionists.

    you put God into the mix, evolution rules Him out explicitly.

12. #512
    On January 19th, 2009 at 4:59 pm, corkie said:

    right4life, stop asking liberals about mechanisms. You know that it’s considered an unfair tactic.

    Don’t ruin wonderful liberal theories by asking them to explain the mechanisms.

13. #513
    On January 19th, 2009 at 5:03 pm, right4life said:

    Don’t ruin wonderful liberal theories by asking them to explain the mechanisms.

    very true!!

    it just works, somehow, like Obama’s economics!!!

14. #514
    On January 19th, 2009 at 5:11 pm, frostrt said:

    On January 16th, 2009 at 3:06 pm, Mookie said:
    You don’t see adulterers forming a coalition and demanding the public accept their sinful lifestyle and bestow upon it the same rights as a morally acceptable lifestyle.
    No, they just become conservative icons, like Newt, Rush, etc.

    —————————————

    You forgot Clinton.

    I wonder why?

15. #515
    On January 19th, 2009 at 7:33 pm, Omu said:

    On January 19th, 2009 at 5:11 pm, frostrt said:

    You forgot Clinton.

    I wonder why?

    Because Mookie was talking about conservatives and last I checked Bill Clinton was not one of those?

    You would do best to actually deal with the content of the arguments with which you disagree, rather than trying to show some egregious, crippling bias or what not. The way conservatives constantly react like you do (in desperation to avoid the actual discussion and bring the conversation down to the moronic level social conservatives are more comfortable with) makes jarringly obvious how unforgivable awful your arguments are.

16. #516
    On January 19th, 2009 at 7:39 pm, Omu said:

    you put God into the mix, evolution rules Him out explicitly.

    Even before the theory of evolution, believing in a god was absolutely irrational. Just because you can’t explain something at this point in time, you’re going to abandon scientific progress and just say it must be the result of some deity? Such an attitude is grossly juvenile.

    However, among Christians, a belief in evolution does not expressly negate any belief in god. As I already point out, the Catholic Church accepts evolution without compromise. They choose instead to view it as being the product of God or whatever. But they accept it, understanding that science is science and pretending it’s not there (just as evangelical Americans do) is ludicrous. The Catholic Church is the largest Christian church in the world; has over 1 billion followers. 1 in every 6 people is a Catholic. Are you going to tell me they are worshipping Darwin in lieu of Jesus? I passionately dislike the Catholic Church. Passionately. But at least they accept facts for what they are.

17. #517
    On January 19th, 2009 at 10:54 pm, right4life said:

    Even before the theory of evolution, believing in a god was absolutely irrational.

    professing to be wise, they have become fools….

    you confirm the truth of the bible, with every post.

    do you even know the mechanism for evolution there omu? or do you just take it on FAITH???

    oh well never get between a fool and the fire…

18. #518
    On January 20th, 2009 at 5:37 pm, MtsEdge said:

    Zeroangel said: I have had a similar exchange with you in the past (which you seem to have forgotten) and frankly (though I realize you might not be aware of this) your comments are somewhat insulting.

    Zero, no insult was intended. I do recall having a similar conversation with you before and this is where it pretty much ended last time.

    I was trying to ask what you expect from others in terms of behavior and what you offer in return. If, for example, you think murder is wrong, why?? If life has no intrinsic meaning, then what should it matter if a person murders another person? By the same token, how can you expect to have your person and property respected by others if you are found to have no value by others?

    It does intrigue me to think that you do not feel awe or obligation to God to seek His truth, and so perhaps these questions are more of a rhetorical nature.

    I’m sorry you were insulted, truly I didn’t mean to offend you.

19. #519
    On January 21st, 2009 at 1:01 pm, zeroangel said:

    MtsEdge:

    I don’t know if you are still reading but I’ll give it a shot once again:

    If life has no intrinsic meaning, then what should it matter if a person murders another person?

    I guess I would have to say to you, why do you need “god” to have “meaning” or “value” in life?

    I feel empathy for other people. It is a naturally evolved trait that you can see in other animals as well (monkey for example). Why does it have to have “meaning” or “god?” I feel empathy and expect the same in return. It really is that simple.

    As I said earlier, if you thought there was no god would that mean its OK to kill your neighbor? Of course not!

    It does intrigue me to think that you do not feel awe or obligation to God to seek His truth, and so perhaps these questions are more of a rhetorical nature.

    It is somewhat intriguing to me that you worship a “god” whom has (if you believe the Bible to be true) done absolutely horrible things in the distant past. How can you draw your morality from someone who supposedly killed every first born of Egypt? Doesn’t that sound monstrous and unforgivable?

    Honestly, I wasn’t so insulted. It’s just very frustrating me to have this same exact conversation over and over again. Does it truly not occur to you that you don’t need “god” to tell you what is right and wrong? For that matter, how would “he” tell you anyway?

    Again, I must insist that you read Kant (just one of many).

20. #520
    On February 8th, 2009 at 4:03 pm, RogerCfromSD said:

    Godlessness isn’t a virtue.