Tom Hanks questions Prop. 8 supporters’ patriotism
We were considered fascists for questioning theirs, but it’s patriotic for them to question ours.
Per Hot Air headlines, Hollywood lib Tom Hanks tars Prop. 8 supporters as “un-American.” As opposed to all of those patriots gathering black lists and compiling maps of people who exercised their right to vote and dared to express political opinions in opposition to Tinseltown orthodoxy…
Tom Hanks, Executive Producer for HBO’s controversial polygamist series “Big Love,” made his feelings toward the Mormon Church’s involvement in California’s Prop 8 (which prohibits gay marriage) very clear at the show’s premiere party on Wednesday night.
“The truth is this takes place in Utah, the truth is these people are some bizarre offshoot of the Mormon Church, and the truth is a lot of Mormons gave a lot of money to the church to make Prop-8 happen,” he told Tarts. “There are a lot of people who feel that is un-American and I am one of them. I do not like to see any discrimination codified on any piece of paper, any of the 50 states in America, but here’s what happens now. A little bit of light can be shed and people can see who’s responsible and that can motivate the next go around of our self correcting constitution and hopefully we can move forward instead of backwards. So lets have faith in not only the American, but Californian constitutional process.”
(link)
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well why don’t you take your shot and explain some of those links in relation to evolution…since you’re such a great scientist as well as lawyer!!
this should be good…
‘I don’t know’
I think Gator was unwittingly quoting Neville Chamberlain; unfortunately this particular enemy got a foothold on American soil before it’s full potential was realized.
Like I said, for those that do not blindly ignore.
Have a nice weekend, right4life and make sure you don’t catch thegay. I hear the vaccine this season isn’t working too well with the infirmed elderly and slow-witted.
Wellllllll, when I go to Mass on Sunday, won’t I have alot to think about……ummmmm prolly not about this thread…… oh well, play nice, kids…I have to work at my VFW and help prepare the place for the sendoff of the men and women fighting for us so we can rail at each other here.
Atheists and Christians on the interweb are not going to convince each other one way or the other about evolution.
I consider myself an intelligent design kind of guy, as a petroleum engineer, I produce oil from Ordivician aged rocks, but I find the Genesis account to be a pretty good simplification of Creation for people who didn’t yet have a strong background in science. And to God, a thousand years can seem as a day.
But, lets get back to discussing how global warming is causing all time record lows, how Arctic sea ice is as high as it was when they started satellite tracking in 1979, and how glaciers in Alaska that had been retreating for 200 years have started growing again.
your hairygod will be so disapointed in you!!
but I’m not surprised ya got nothing…as usual… *smirk*
We’re smoking briskets tomorrow for a Knights of Columbus fundraiser.
I have to find out if my Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal makes me eligible for the VFW. Earnest Will, Persian Gulf 1980s tanker war. I never got shot at, as I was in the engineering spaces of an aircraft carrier when not eating or sleeping, or up on the observation deck on the island watching launches and traps.
No war stories at all, but plenty of drunken liberty in Africa and Homg Kong and Tijuana stories.
Mmmmmm….smoked brisket.
ED you qualify!
depends on where the ship was…… any VFW has a list of campaign and expeditionary qualifying awards… I’ll check for you at my post and let you know somewhere around here.
Yes, but how is the GOMEX holding up?
Gulf of Mexico at Galveston has reached the 20ºC level of bitter coldness.
That 68ºF sounds too cold for normal people, but from about Boston Northwards in Massachusetts up to Maine, the water doesn’t get that warm at the Coast even in August.
But no hurricanes for Texas for at least 5 months.
BTW, the Kemah Boardwalk has been re-opened, and they have almost finished repairing the roof on Reliant Stadium. No rain for the rodeo or George Strait.
I liked the Houston Texans playing their games with a Dallas Cowboy style hole in the roof. Just have to hope for another hurricane next Summer, I guess.
I think football in domes or retractable roof stadiums is an insult to America.
At least Hanks doesn’t say people “hate America” or “want Islamofasciests to impose sharia law on America” or crap like that. In the patriotism mudslinging, as in most forms of lowliferie, wingnuts have it all over the rest of us.
…Even though you cannot actually specify exactly how you are so denied?
EXPLAIN how it is possible that you are afforded exactly the SAME opportunity as anyone else to marry someone of the opposite gender yet claim being ‘denied your rights’?
Let me lay it out for you.. what really bugs you is that the word ‘marriage’ has been DEFINED to be what it has predominantly meant for thousands of years in western civilization. Because it has finally been defined in state law to mean what it always meant – you are no longer able to ATTACK IT and subvert its definition to fit within your limited scope of experience which totally LACKS the experience by over 95% of the population – the normal attraction to the opposite gender. You just have no idea what that is. You don’t have it and you do not experience ‘missing it’. So homosexuals really have zero place specifying anything that involves that attraction.
Allowing homosexuals to define marriage to include the result of a sexual behavior dysfunction makes about as much sense as color blind people defining the names of colors. (Yes, it is a dysfunction. There are two genders for an irrefutable biologic reason.)
If you want a name for whatever it is that you think is so special between you and someone else of the same sex then invent your own new word for it because it is not ‘marriage’ – that word is already taken and you can’t have it.
Another Hollywood star that won’t get my money anymore. *sigh*
Too bad; I liked him and liked that he stayed pretty uncontroversial.
Rats.
right,
Your post 292 is precious.
Your evidence against evolution is to cite articles that allegedly show some divergence of opinion in exactly how evolution occurred?
Wow. Divergence of opinion. Welcome to the wonderful world of SCIENCE, where things actually have to be analyzed and studied and tested. Scientists just can’t pawn it all off on “God’s Plan” or his “mysterious ways” and call it a day.
How do you explain carbon dating, btw? Is it just a mean trick by God to make us think the world is actually not 6,000 years old?
I’m Catholic and I have friends that are gay. I believe marriage is between a man and a women. Other unions are fine with me.
I do think there are people who are pre-disposed to be gay, mostly by genetics or brain chemistry. I just don’t like it when lifestyles are shoved in people’s faces.
Wow, chap, why engage this guy?
I know lawyers love a good debate just as much as the next guy, but there will be no ‘agree to disagree’ with right4life.
If right can’t see the truth, why try to convince a closed mind?
Obviously, evolution doesn’t exist. Look at adults with Down’s Syndrome….they have just as many kids as ‘healthy’ men, even though they don’t live as long. Right? Their genes are not selected for continuation.
To deny evolution is to believe the Earth is flat.
I think human sexuality is far too complex to be reduced a single gay-straight switch somewhere in the genome.
I bet you are an expert at smoking things, Mookie.
So get this!!!!!!
I was having random conversation with my teenage daughter a few minutes ago and I mentioned that I was born AFTER Woodstock….thank you very much.
Her eyes glazed over.
So I was like “You have no idea what Woodstock is do you??”
Her answer: “Well, I’ve heard of Comstock….but whats Woodstock?”
lgm says: “At least Hanks doesn’t say people “hate America” or “want Islamofasciests to impose sharia law on America” or crap like that. In the patriotism mudslinging, as in most forms of lowliferie, wingnuts have it all over the rest of us.”
Statements like this, discounting the daily garbage and hatred that comes from KOS, Huffington, MSNBC, et al. shows what an out of touch individual you are.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but members of the left can be some of the lowest lifeforms on the planet, as well. You don’t get to redefine reality.
The is no agreeing or compromising on the subject of mass infanticide. Nor should there be.
There’s a reason that MTV held one and only one ‘MTV Spring Break‘ celebration in San Diego in 1994…… its toooooooo friggin cold in the Pacific Ocean!
68 would be downright toasty there too.
Socky,
I know. Just trying to keep it to basics. My friends are clearly gay. I don’t have a proven scientific explanation, I just know what is.
At least they are conservative.
You mean wingnuts like Obama’s pastor and other associates?
Holy Cow!!!
These gay threads are damn long.
No, we Christians should not be bitter and angry but as with Tom Hanks we are not about to let non-believers determine our Faith and Belief. WE are accused of of HATE by screaming idiots, perverts and non believers calling us other dirty names, burning churches and bibles and such. We are not impressed.
We have Moses and the Prophets, Jesus Christ himself, Peter, Paul and the Evangelist-the Bible; We Know the Truth for It Has Been Given Us. You could ask “what is Truth” and think you are sophisticated. Pontius Pilate did.
“If you Love Me Obey My Commands”; Sorry Tom and friends.
Tom Hanks – Add another HollyTard to the list of idiots.
Tom Hanks – did you ever think that someone voted against proposition 8 because they think it is correct? Or is it that everyone who disagrees with you on that subject a mindless drone working the deeds for the Mormon Church?
The point of Christianity is that we’re supposed make ourselves be more like Jesus; not to try and make Jesus more like us.
Tom is turning me off more and more everytime he opens his mouth.
Well, now I’m glad he died in Private Ryan! sarc folks sarc
Carbon dating is the work of the devil!
Another self-important Hollywood weenie heard from. Yawnnnnnnnnnn……
That’s painfully bad for many reasons. Seriously, I’m just embarrassed for you.
another selfish, elitist, arrogant bastard that has now arrived on my will not watch his movies list. The list gets longer and longer, too bad about Tom too, I really enjoyed about everything he did, but that is not reason to support his arrogant, elitist life style either.
Adios matha, you close minded bigot.
Sorry, but until you can cause an evolutionary moment in something, and then duplicate the results (the pesky scientific method), evolution will remain a theory. Sure, it sounds plausible. But without proving it using the scientific method, you are asking me to take it on faith. Isn’t that what you are ridiculing some people for?
By the way, I think evolution probably has it mostly right. But there are just too many unanswered questions and flaws to accept it all on faith.
Laura Ingraham said it best
SHUT UP AND SING
Sit down Tom, your ignorance is showing.
(Yeah, for you haters who oppose prop 8 and intolerant jerks I said “ignorance” – here’s a guy producing a (damn crappy) TV show about polygamy – someone who should know better than anyone else how the Mormon church changed their policy on marriage to gain acceptance. Yet he sticks up for a bunch of mouthy radical morons (yes – MORONS! They’re attacking the people who backed them (white Christians) yet ignoring the people who voted to pass prop 8 (Blacks and mexicans) MORONS!) and insults the people who know how to gain acceptance in society.)
Peoples lives are being ruined over how they exercised their right to vote THERE’S NOTHING MORE UNAMERICAN THAN THAT. NOTHING.
Shut up Tom, my video collection has been purged of you.
wow chap, your post is typical. in other words ignorant.
how do explain these divergences from evolution?? I’ll post them again…
that provirus found in apes, chimps and bonobos, but NOT humans?? I guess you don’t understand, but with common ancestory, we should have that too…but we don’t, why not?
and just because they mention the word ‘evolution’ doesn’t mean it evolved…
the immune system of mice function more like men than that of apes?? how can that be given evolution??? hmmmmmm??
you can’t explain these things in an evolutionary framework. but you obviously don’t have the intellect to play in this league…
tex, ya lied about me before, you didn’t have the decency to apologize, why am I not surprised??? hmmm??
well tex, why don’t you explain what I posted above? too hard for ya? then explain why the tuatara, with the fastest rate of molecular evolution, is a living dinosaur?
I’m sure I’ll get a good laugh out of you defending darwin, you can’t do any worse than chappy!
and why should I explain carbon dating to you, when you can’t even understand what I’ve already posted…
its gotten to the point of casting pearls before swine…
You know, it’s simply amazing the girations that some will go thru to justify their hell-bent ideology and sexual lifestyle. Just amazing.
But as I’ve said many times before, this is what godlessness looks like.
Thank you Socky…it’s getting a bit over the top these past 2 days.
Those who mock Jesus Christ are getting their reward now. Jesus wishes that no one should be lost. Jesus gives everyone a choice and He doesn’t push Himself on anyone. David and Jonathan were not gay and thats only wishful thinking on certain groups. Remember Christ loves us so much that He laid down on a cross and paid for our sins when He never committed any. This is why the world hates Him and His followers. Anyone who goes against what Jesus taught us will be hated especially on these liberal social issues.
thank you for your honesty!
you know according to chap, you’re a self-hating liar.
The ONLY thing Reagan did wrong….his benevolence during the AIDS fiasco was the impetus of these threads; had he let nature run it’s course this would be a moot point.
I thought placing it in the other orifice was the “painful” thing, Mooks. Sorry for setting the record straight, no pun intended.
Godlessness is running rampant these days. Truly, God has given some over to their deviant thoughts & actions, to which there is no return or ability to reason with. The mind is gone, the conscience seared, and the heart cold and hard as a stone.
I am an atheist. I live in Los Angeles and work in the technical side of the music industry. I see Hollyweird up close and the number of straight normal people in the entertainment field is no higher than the single digits.
I voted for Prop 8 not because homosexuality is “sinful”, but because it’s a form of mental illness. I haven’t met a single homosexual who didn’t have severe mental and emotional problems. Religion is not required to repulsed by their views and behavior. However, I don’t believe government has a role in this as long as they don’t hurt other people.
Homosexual marriage crosses that line.
Under no circumstances should they be allowed to adopt, nor should they be given other rights under family or employment law. If individuals or private companies want to recognize domestic partnerships, that’s their free right, but there should be no government mandates for everyone to do so.
It’s exactly this nonsense that pisses us atheists off to no end.
I am a decent person, I pay my taxes, I don’t cheat on my wife, I served honorably in Iraq, I drive the speed limit, and the list goes on.
I am not deviant nor do I have a heart of stone or anything of that sort.
I was not speaking of atheists.
Thank you for your honorable service to our country. Thank you for paying your taxes. Your wife, I’m sure, thanks you for your faithfulness and dedication to her. Your morals are commendable.
jangar:
If I was hasty I apologize, however you did begin with:
If you weren’t talking about atheists, who were you talking about when you said “Godless?”
Those who shake a defiant fist in the face of God, as if to say “I will do as I please and there is nothing you can do to me”. In other words…”my will be done, not Yours”.
Another quotable quote from right4life. What the hell do you think they mean by evolution? Or put another way…do you think any of the scientists you cited to believe your silly fantasy of a 6,000 year old universe?
With common ancestry we should have many common characteristics…which we do. It does not mean we are 100% genetically identical or else we would be the same freaking species you half-wit. Take your 4th grade intellect and your creationist pamphlet understanding and go…well anywhere else.
Don’t avoid…do it or shut up. Wow us with your intellect and/or googling ability. Come on…put me in my place. Reconcile carbon dating with your simple-minded creationist fantasy.
Is this post about evolution, gay rights or Mormon bashing? Or all of the above? Slow Friday night, folks?
Its mostly about how everyone, left or right, conservative or liberal, black or white, all can get around the idea that right4life is a dumbass.
To whom was I speaking?
Those who ridicule Christians, hold in contempt Christians, and bastardize what Christians hold as sacred. Yet, this is something that comes with the ground as a Christian.
Anything else?
Once again the intellects of the universe with the worldly wisdom of the ages are judging those who worship the One who created everything.
Chap – there are times I think you’ve really got it together, then there are days like this. You are complex, yet confusing.
I am not judging “the One.” I am judging right4life.
At least I hope you do not think she is the One. Cause that would be a huge disappointment, I would guess, to believers and nonbelievers alike.
All sarcasm aside, what is it, Chap, that you do believe?
You can think what you want about me. My points are simple.
I believe in evolution and I do not believe that gays are inherently pedophiliaic. That is all my posts on this thread boil down to. Oh, and the fact that right4life is an idiot.
I am not asking you to agree or disagree. But I would not consider any of those positions to be terribly shocking.
I do not believe in the idea of a sentient God, for starters. I have thought long and hard about this. This is actually one of the great fallacies of people’s perceptions of atheism: that it is somehow morally or intellectually lazy or a cop out. It actually is not a very pleasant notion to think that this life is all we have. It is much easier, in my opinion, to believe that we do live forever, in one form or another.
I do not have any problem with people that think I am wrong on this point. What I do object to are people that I came to this conclusion simply because i want to justify promiscuous sex or spending my Sundays sleeping rather than attending church.
No, I am not terribly shocked. There are plenty of Christ followers who believe in the theory of evolution and try to fit it into doctrine, which always creates all sorts of holes…a lot like finding that missing link and evidence of evolution in the fossil record. Some things just cannot be explained in simple human thinking.
For me, it takes a lot more faith to believe in evolution than it does in the Creator of all that is.
As far as homosexuals and pedophelia…it’s a mixed bag. Some are, some aren’t.
You are correct. The spirit of man does indeed live forever. Where that spirit spends eternity is another subject all together.
To better answer your question, however…I do believe that there is an inherent notion of morality that is not dependent on the existence of a higher being, but which springs from the fact that each of us is an independent, viable being. Happily, my sense of morality (and I would say most people’s sense of morality) coincides with moral tenets taught by religion 95% of the time, as religion, if nothing else, is a sincere attempt to tap into that which is most true and most fundamental about ourselves. Which is also why so many of the greatest works of art and so many of the greatest examples of humanity and humility are inspired by religion.
The second part of that is, though, that I cannot allow my discomfort with the idea that it all ends when we die to override my sincere belief that this is the case. That is intellectually dishonest and is the epitome of the tail wagging the dog.
I find Chap’s reasoning illogical.
The existence of God can be neither proven nor disproven. So, any position one takes is based entirely on faith and speculation. It amounts to a wager.
If one wagers that God exists, and one is right, one has gained everything and if wrong, one has lost nothing. But if one wagers that God does not exist… even if one is right, one has gained nothing, and if wrong, one has lost everything.
To wager everything on the certainty of gaining nothing is illogical.
I guess Rene Descartes was a deeper thinker than Bill Maher after all.
I also find the notion that “faith is a crutch” to be an ignorant cliche. Faith takes a lot of work, not just in resisting the constant onslaught of attacks by people who find it easier to go through life not believing in anything, but also because faith requires self-restraint and personal responsibility.
The real crutch is progressive liberalism — a political philosophy based entirely on the notion that personal responsibility is bunk, that everything that’s wrong in your life is someone else’s fault, and there should be an army of government bureaucrats to take care of you and insulate you from the consequences of your bad decisions. If that’s not a crutch, I don’t know what is.
The question is (although not explicitly stated in the form of a question, Mr. Trebec):
And the answer is an unqualifed yes. Bring in your 214 that shows the award.
Sailors don’t have war stories. We have sea stories. Remember the difference between a fairly tale and a sea story? A fairy tale starts out “Once upon a time…..” and a sea story starts out “And this is no BS….” (sanitized for the more genteel and easily offended, LOL)
Reasoning is the barrier to discovery. I discovered 45 years ago, that the rational brain has a limited capacity because of the dualistic nature of reality. Dualistic observation is a CONCEPT of time. The only way to discover the infinite is to stop the judgmental brain and simply observe without attachment.
In Christianity and with may religions you are called upon to loose yourself in order to gain the kingdom of heaven. I think this is what they are referring to.
All of this can’t be communicated with words, because words are on dualistic and linear. This is why I believe that the concept of mortality and the creator can only be resolved within ones personal experience.
Socky
Descartes’s “I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am” is as far as the rational brain can take ones personal observation with the mind. To discover “GOD” one must suspend thought and judgment.
This is why I don’t discuss religion on this blog.
I would prefer to use this space to verbally “flip off” a liberal.
Agreed, and I think if one denies oneself this experience, one is missing out on a great deal.
I would prefer the topic not be brought up, as well. But as Ogden Nash might have written…
There is no worser cyber-temptation
Than to correct an internet mis-characterization.
Since you keep digging yourself in even deeper, please allow me to give you a shovel. I’m a straight woman, not a gay man, as you seem to think.
Why is this exactly? When I hear this it seems to me a convenient excuse for the fact that God has not been proven, despite thousands of years of trying.
I will ignore the “progressive liberalism” jab and just say I hope that is not what you think I was saying.
And Pascal’s wager is absurd. Of course you lose something if you bet on God and lose. You go through your entire life not knowing tha this is your one shot. Do you really mean to tell me that if you knew there were no afterlife, you wouldn’t live your life differently? At the least, I’d bet you wouldn’t go to church on Sunday.
I am sure neither is going to convince the other, but a nice friendly discussion (without certain incendiary elements) is never a bad thing.
Your assumption seems to be that resolving it within ones personal experience necessarily leads one to a belief in God. I would say that is false.
Socky said: (#329)
Well said!
——————-
jangar said: (#368)
That sounds right. Chapoutier would be great to meet every week over drinks (coffee or otherwise) to talk about anything from “shoes and ships and sealing wax, and whether pigs have wings” to “life, the universe, everything”.
———————
Chapoutier (#362) (I’m not going to quote as this is going to be long enough.) Careful–you’re sounding more like an agnostic! -grin-
In a serious vein, as a fellow citizen I can not ask for more than that you have thoughtfully considered positions and live a life that doesn’t infringe upon the rights of others. As a believer, I hope that you find something that will make you sit up and go “Yes! That is the missing piece to make sense of this.” thank you for taking this matter seriously, as it is important no matter what your conclusions.
—————
Socky (#372) Nice referring to Ogden Nash.
—————-
Mookie (373)BRAVA!
I have never liked this alleged reasoning. It seems insincere, and an attempt to fool God, which, to the true believer, is impossible as He knows everything.
However, I don’t have the scholarship, nor have developed the rhetorical skills, to continue this line of thought more.
So?
On Sunday, I get to spend three hours or more with upstanding people and their families, listen to life-affirming messages, and grow in my personal understanding of what it is to be human. I do not look at this as a “cost.” I don’t see why anyone would.
Interesting reading… I haven’t been here in a while.
I’m thinking the ends to Christianity are us becoming more like Jesus. The means, of course, was Him dying to pay the penalty we should have to pay.
Everyone seen bighollywood.breitbart.com?
Great stuff.
Fair enough. One cannot discount the sense of community a church brings to many, separate from the religious teachings. I did not mean to do so.
Participating in something that has eternal purpose is very uplifting.
I go to work… come home… make money.
Like millions before me. But, helping with the kids in AWANAs one night a week is usually the best night of the week.
Dont forget the ever popular “And there we were…”
and for you civilians “This one time, at band camp…”
Argh!
Not Pascal’s wager?
It is so flawed on so many levels its hard to know where to begin.
Kevin and Chap touched on some things already but I’ll repeat:
1. It’s impossible to know what “god” we are talking about. For all we know it’s incredibly likely the Muslims are right are we are all going to hell. There are countless religions since the dawn of time. It is NOT an “god exists” or “does not exist” question. The choices (and punishments for getting the wrong one) are endless. What if “god” is a giant and wise hamster that is playing a huge pratical joke? Perhaps he purposely hid himself and only lets atheists into the nicest parts of heaven on the grounds that they are good “just because?”
2. As Kevin said: you can’t fool “god.” Had I been born hundreds of years earlier with my same analytical mind (presumably which “god” created) I would still be INCAPABLE of believing. It is simply the way my mind works. Going around telling my neighbors, “Oh sure, I believe in God” might fool them, but likely not an omnipotent creator being.
3. As chap said, you DO lose quite a bit depending on what religion you choose to take up. Ask yourself, whose the better person and who sacrifices less? Little ‘ole me, or a Muslim suicide bomber. Furthermore, I can not stress enough how becoming an atheist has been one of the most fulfilling things in my LIFE. I have a much greater appreciation and understanding of life and the universe than any bronze age “super being” could ever provide me with.
That is ME. If it does not work for you, then fine, go with what makes you happy and works for you! I have seen scientific evidence recently in some article that suggests analytical minds like my own are not the norm. In fact, evidence suggests (due to the way our minds work) belief in some kind of authority over the universe is a natural side effect of the human condition.
However, this does not make it true, and it does not make me (or other atheists) immoral, foolish, intellectually lazy, mean, nasty, deviant, or anything of the sort!
I have to admit, I must seem noticeably upset at this point. It is because I am! Michelle Malkin’s comments about atheists on FOX news I found to be rather offensive, and I must admit the comments on this board have begun to wear me down.
Enough is enough. If you belief in your God is so strong you should be able to cope with the fact that atheists exist and NOT get your panties in a bunch! You should be able to see an atheist billboard and not freak out. WE have to put up with religious adverts everywhere! ESPECIALLY if you are an atheist in the south!
“Militant atheists” TALK! That is it! They exercise their FREE SPEECH! Militant Islamists (despite what you think, many “militant” atheists loathe) KILL people. We are on the same side people!
1. Belief is only the beginning. The search for God follows.
2. Who said anything about pretending, I’m talking about making a choice to belief.
3. When you die, it all reverts to zero no matter what you do. So, the cost of belief is still nil compared with disbelief.
I do get tired of atheists arrogantly asserting their “analytical” superiority, as though any analysis of the available evidence must *always* lead to atheism; and any that does not is the flawed work of an inferior mind. Centuries of insight by some of humanity’s keenest intellects suggests otherwise.
zeroangel (#282)
That’s reasonable. I can handle the fact that others do not believe as I do. As I said above, as a citizen, I can only hope for reasoned opinions and actions that violate no one else’s rights.
I do think, though, that the atheist billboards and bus ads should have been done at another time of the year than Christmas. What was done was a hard slap in the face, designed for shock effect and little dialog. Timing to have made the dialog more likely might have produced better results if the goal were mutual understanding.
Anyone who has had a Jesuit education would never make such a claim. The fact that some of the most intelligent, thoughtful teachers I have ever known do believe in God is really one of the few things that gives me pause. But in any case, I do not believe anyone here has claimed what you say.
As I think zero has expressed, it is not about pure belief. You also have to apparently have the “right” belief. And also, you are presuming that God, if he exists, sets as a prerequisite for heaven holding the correct belief. Considering the hundreds, if not thousands of religions that exist, is it not fair to say what ever gain one would attain for belief has to be divided by some factor just to account for the fact that the pony you chose in the race may not be the winner?
Not all religions preach exclusivity (our way or Hell), merely that their way is best.
Christ did say something close to “In My Father’s house are many rooms, I go to prepare one for thee.” This, to me, implies more than one way to getting closer to God and/or Heaven.
Which is one reason to discount (not ignore) the “playing the odds” argument.
Backing off a bit, so long as we don’t have all the facts–and we don’t, both about belief in God vs. atheism and evolution vs. creationism vs “intelligent design”–we are likely to come to different conclusions based on what we see, perhaps giving too much weight to one argument instead of another.
Socky:
I was not trying to assert that I am somehow superior.
In fact, I thought I sounded somewhat humble by conceding that I may lack some kind of imagination or “perspective” that evidence suggests is present in most humans.
On some level, some might say, I am “inferior.”
However, if you are going to suggest that evidence CAN lead to belief in a Christian God, you must concede it can also possibly lead to the Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Ancient Norse or Greek gods, FSM, IPU, Dragons, or the giant all-powerful Hamster.
“Belief” is NOT a choice. I simply CANNOT believe it anymore than I can believe in Zeus, Dragons, Venus, or the deities from Dungeons and Dragons. Isn’t this making sense to anyone other than me and Chap?
Here you automatically assume “god” cares if you believe or not, and not (for example) being chiefly concerned about whether or not you are a good person.
Kevin:
I have said, perhaps in this thread or another. I generally agree with this statement. Personally, I usually say “Merry Christmas” but sometimes I say “Happy Holidays” or even (half joking) “Happy Winter Solstice.” The thing that is just plain silly, is the later two phrases actually make some people angry!
Chap:
As always, your comments are most welcome.
Kevin:
The problem with “Intelligent Design” is it is simply not science. It is no more science than (for example) trying to interject “god” or “intelligence” into the theory of gravity!
One can say in a science classroom, “acceleration due to gravity on earth is 9.8ms^2, this is due to curvature of space-time by matter” or something similar.
One cannot say, “acceleration due to on earth gravity is 9.8ms^2, this is due to curvature of space-time by matter set in such a way by a supreme intelligence.” The latter part is RELIGION, not SCIENCE. It is empirically untestable given the less than concrete definition of this “intelligence.”
Furthermore, as for “creationism,” see #278.
It is not supported by evidence. It is counter to the evidence.
zeroangel said: (#387)
Yes.
(I believe differently, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t see your position.)
zeroangel said: (#388)
Ah, I think one can. Science always has seemed to me to be more of a how than a why. Religion, in this context, the why.
I do not understand how the creationism people get their time lines, but I am not a Biblical scholar (for interpreting times in the Bible). When I see “In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth” I do not take it literally – *poof* there is the earth as it was 5700+ years ago. To me, and yes this is more religion than science, that statement can be squared with the scientific method in the sense that God created the universe and its laws, which led to the earth and such as we know it. I don’t see a contradiction.
(And I’m sorry, I skipped most of the postings on this thread, as I thought they would degenerate to ad hominem remarks and pro- and anti- gay battles filled with “sound and fury, signifying nothing.” That gets boring to read.)
“Science always has seemed to me to be more of a how than a why.”
Maybe I should have said “what” instead of “how”, but I was thinking of discovered laws, such as gravity or thermodynamics, rather than a straight description of events.
Yes, that’s true. But I think that pure evolution to include a why factor (which usually seems to be “because”) is trying to make a religion out of science. (Not unlike some of the Al Gore style of the “global warming” debate.)
The Baha’i Faith teaches that science and religion are complementary. I think that I have encountered similar thought in some Jewish and Christian writings, although certainly not all, but they could be minority views. (No, I don’t think that I can find those examples again, sorry.) Our understanding may not see the relationship, but no one here is willing to state that all scientific knowledge has been found – I hope!
In advance, sorry for the very long post. I do hope some of you will read it all.
Kevin:
Yes, thank you. I apologize for neglecting to mention that you (in addition to Chap) understand me as evidenced by #376.
I would like to take this opportunity to stress that we are all Americans. There is religious freedom here, in addition to the freedom to be a non-believer. That is part of what makes our country great.
I think it would be a basic truism to state that everyone of us here (well most) are on the same side of the fence in regards to religious freedom and secularism. It is often said that American culture is only 200 years old. This is not true; it is several thousand years old. It draws on our history of British culture, western culture, Greco-Roman values, Judeo-Christian values, and even perhaps all the way back to ancient philosophies born in ancient Egypt.
Our (very obvious) enemies in today’s world are the forces of unreason and fundamentalism; particularly Muslim fundamentalism, an offshoot of the same “god” of which we are speaking, Yahweh.
As an atheist, I find it somewhat strange how some very devout people cannot make the correlation between the tyrant of the Old Testament and the somewhat kind and loving “god” of the New?
Does it not occur to these people that if the Bible were literally true that would mean that “god” is not infallible? That he somehow learned from his mistakes and had to rectify them? That at some point in the distant past he felt it OK that a woman should marry her rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28); that at one point he found it nessecery to kill all people on Earth (the flood); that he saw nothing immoral about killing the first born child of every Egyptian (doubtless many of whom were innocent children); that at some point he thought it nessecery to redeem past ills and send Jesus to save us all many years after he set out upon his great experiemnt?
It is these things that make me cringe at the notion that the Jews; Muslims; or even Christians have it right. This God sounds terrible in my mind, and the things I have mentioend are just a handful of which I could never wrap my head around in Sunday school.
If this sentiment offends anyone, well what can I say? I am merely being honest. It is a bit of irony to demand that atheists (like me) that hold these views keep them to themselves and “respect” this version of “god” which I find deproable. One might say it is equally deplorable for me make something of the same disrespect, but then where is the cutoff? I proudly fought Muslim extremeists in Iraq. Those people that (no doubt) held views to be even more extreme and disgusting. Some conservatives here might applaud me for fighting against people that would kill for their disgusting beliefs in Allah. However, some of the same people might chastise me for saying, “actually I find your ‘god’ nearly as bad as thiers.” Thankfully, we won’t kill one another over this. Again, one of the great things about America.
Conservatives need to start getting used to the fact that not all conservatives are Christian. Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, and many others alienate a great many of us that otherwise share many aspects of their worldview.
Finally:
One CAN say it in Sunday school, or perhaps philosophy class. One cannot say it in science class. It is simply unscientific to suggest a means or a cause that cannot be tested for empirically. How could one test for the exsistence of such intelligence without “circular reasoning?” It can’t be done, this is why “Intelligent Design” is religion, not science.
I would say this is a common misunderstanding of evolution. It is no more religious than stating, “The Earth is not the center of the universe.” All it does it blow literal “creation myths” out of the water. It does, however, leave room for metaphorical interpretations.
they throw the word ‘evolution’ in almost every article dealing with this….as its an afterthought…a bow to the hairygod of evolution. even when their evidence calls evolution into question….as anyone can plainly see. you cannot explain what I posted in an evolutionary framework.
in other words you don’t know, you stupid piece of trash.
evolution is nothing more than an atheist fairy tale. they cannot duplicate it in the lab, they cannot describe the mutations necessary to explain how anything like an eye evolved, and they cannot see it in the fossil record.
in other words, all the evolutionist has is FAITH that it happened…
and if any disagree, they are sued, silenced and harassed, by the brown-shirted fascist darwiniacs…as Sternberg found out.
and as Coyne admits evolution is USELESS in science…its nothing more than a just-so story…
link
and its useless in medicine too…
link
the evolutionists have made science into atheism…their religion, thats why they are so intolerant of any other views…they cannot debate, all the can do is belittle those who dare disagree with the IMAMS of evolution…
zeroangel (#393)
Good post, and thank you.
I think that different aspects of God’s infinite nature were being shown to fit the times. In a small example, how a first sergeant has to be really firm when he comes to a new unit and then he can be more relaxed. Some Jewish scholars believe that Old Testament behavior was God’s showing His love towards the Jews–by shaping them into a people who could last through a long diaspora, for example.
Yes, I see what you mean. I don’t have an answer to that, although I might have an idea of where to look; if I do find something, I’ll share it with you. This will be done in a spirit of “you may like this” rather than “now you have to agree with me”. As you said, “[t]here is religious freedom here, in addition to the freedom to be a non-believer. That is part of what makes our country great.”
(About your #394, we may well be in agreement, but I didn’t write well in what you’re commenting on.)
Don’t feed the troll.
here’s the other part of the theory of evolution that the darwiniacs don’t want to talk about…the inherent racism in evolution….since of course the races evolved differently, some have to be more fit, than others..right?
darwin was a racist, and many of his followers have been even to this day with Watson…
and of course Darwin and evolution gave us the ‘wonders’ of eugenics…which gave Sanger her inspiration for murdering babies of color with planned parenthood…and the nazi gas chambers..