March for Life 2009
Today is the March for Life 2009. Throngs of pro-life activists will flood Washington, D.C.
You will barely hear about it in the MSM.
Go here for more info.
Posted in: Abortion
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it is a house of cards, moron. and what is the mechanism for evolution again??
while you’re at it explain:
structuralism, evo-devo and epigenetics
oh and jacka** chap, you forgot the next few lines…
*smirk*
150 years of lying for darwin..
a web of life is CREATIONISM…duhhhhh
From right4life’s favorite “science” museaum:
http://web.mit.edu/gjordan/www/creation/slides/_DSC2393.html
http://web.mit.edu/gjordan/www/creation/slides/_DSC2400.html
here’s zero’s favorite quote from darwin:
and here’s another of zero’s favorite quotes from Huxley, darwin’s bulldog…
ah yes the ’science’ of evolution…
zeroangel said:
You don’t have to be “educated” to be right about something. As the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day. But do you not agree that it is foolish to criticize something one has never even bothered to study or think about? As a general rule, the more you know, the fewer mistakes you are likely to make.
I’m not talking about being eloquent, or being able to clearly articulate one’s points, I’m talking about making flawed arguments that stem from ignorance.
zeroangel said:
Remember, that sentiment came from an atheist; I merely agreed with him, based upon my experience.
But I think it is obvious that it is better to have people on your side making good arguments than bad arguments.
zeroangel said:
Only if he wants to go to heaven!
zeroangel said:
If you want to criticize Islam, then fine. But if your goal is to go after Christianity, studying the Koran isn’t going to be of much help. Knowledge is power.
Here is a problem a lot of atheists have – they don’t realize that not all religions are the same. You can’t deal with every religion in the same way.
Christianity
For example, many atheists want to strike Christianity and take it out with a single stroke. If there was such an opening, it would have been discovered by now, and I would have heard of it. I believe Christianity withstands scrutiny, but even if you don’t, the best you can do is go after it with a thousand cuts, there is no single fatal blow to be struck.
Islam
With Islam, however, you can strike a single, fatal blow. And you can do it by doing little more than reading the Koran and the Bible. The Koran, written several centuries after the Bible was completed, makes numerous claims as to what the Bible says. And many of these claims are patently false.
The differences cannot be dismissed merely as differing interpretations. For example, the Koran teaches that Abraham offered up Ishmael as a sacrifice. The Bible teaches that it was Isaac. This cannot be reconciled by claiming he might have offered up both – because this act has serious implications – would God’s ultimate revelation come through the Jewish people (descendants of Isaac), or through the Arabs (from Ishmael – as in Muhammad). This might seem a minor quibble to the uninitiated, but this is positively huge when you understand what goes along with this.
The problem for the Koran is that it claims what it teaches is in perfect agreement with what the Bible teaches. The Bible, on the other hand, does not make reference to the Koran. So any discrepancies is a problem for the Koran and not for the Bible.
So you have a confirmed error (actually, there are many more, this is just one example) in the Koran, something that the Islamic view of God does not permit. Allah is supposed to be perfect and all knowing, and the Koran is supposed to have been dictated to Muhammad word for word in Arabic. And Islamic teaching is that the Koran we have today is exactly the same as it came down from heaven – to the letter.
Islamic Response
So what is the Islamic response to this criticism? They claim that the Jews & Christians have tampered with the Bible, altering its text. Of course, this claim doesn’t hold up.
We have manuscript copies of Bible books that date before, after, and around the time of Muhammad and the “revelation” of the Koran. We even have copies of the Hebrew books of the Bible that predate the life of Jesus. This is significant, because the Koran specifically teaches that Jesus, a prophet, confirmed the Scriptures that came before Him (the OT). So now we know for certain exactly what Jesus was confirming – the Biblical record of events, not the Koranic account.
To make a long story short, there is no way the Bible could have been corrupted in such a manner. The obvious conclusion is that the author of the Koran had never actually read the Bible and simply didn’t know what he was talking about.
Another Problem
Take another example. The Koran denies that Jesus died on a cross, that He instead was taken up into Heaven without dying (like Elijah). And yet the Koran teaches that Jesus gave the Christians the Gospel.
Well, what is the Gospel? It is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ! The cross of Christ is foundational to Christianity. Without the cross, none of the NT books would even make sense. Everything in Christianity goes back to the cross – even the earliest sacraments such as baptism and the Lord’s Supper – all references to His sacrificial death & consequent resurrection.
I have never been able to find a response to this critique, nor am I even able to conceive of a hypothetical explanation that is at least semi-plausible.
Summary
Look, I could go on about several other religions in the same way, but my point is this: not all religious beliefs are created equal.
Yes, of course, all modern-day proponents of evolution share these views. The fact is (by the very nature of evolution), we are all “equally” removed from the common ancestor. There is no such thing as “more evolved.” Darwin, if we take him at his word here, was wrong.
right4life:
I generally try to refrain from statements like the following but in your case it must be said:
You are without a doubt the most insane, feebleminded, ridiculous, and disgusting poster here. I am amazed that you haven’t gotten yourself banned by this point. I would imagine one could have a more coherent conversion with a person who was running around in circles because they were on fire.
Trollman:
This says it all:
I have no doubt that no matter what religion you study, you will always reach your conclusion that yours happens to be the right one. Forgive me for not being impressed.
you mean like WATSON??? the co-founder of DNA??
this from someone who thinks they’re intelligent, a follower of evolution…and cannot even tell me the basics of the theory, like the mechanism for evolution…but takes it on faith..
you’re a laughable idiot. you and chap illustrate the ‘evolutionary mindset’ where evolution is all in all.
you prove the bible with every post…professing to be wise, they have become fools…
Another photo of right4life:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sweetiepiepress/2785282539/
Notice the similiarity (right4life on the right in this painting):
http://www.dinotopia.com/images/home/chorus.jpg
Zero,
Your wife is a Christian, correct? How does she reconcile her belief in God? I ask mainly because of the questions you pose to Christians on this board. I’m rather curious how have managed to address these issues with your wife. You’ve before mentioned that you’re a cultural Christian.
talk about lame! how old are you? too funny..but no surprise from a darwiniac!!
darwiniac = feeble minded loser
30 pcs:
We have stopped going to church for the past few months, mostly because she is tired on Sunday mornings. I have voiced my concerns to her, and we don’t talk about it much lately. (She wasn’t very devout to being with).
I think the last time we discussed it, I made the following point:
“Why do you believe any of it? It’s not even your culture, it’s a western religion.”
In any case, she certainly does not share the opinions of Trollman and right4life.
zeroangel said:
So, because I have reached the conclusion that only Christians go to Heaven, my position, views, and points can all therefore be safely dismissed…
For someone who fancies himself as having an analytical mind, that doesn’t sound very analytical to me. But what do I know, I am obviously just a religious weirdo who has never seriously considered anything.
atheists ALWAYS think they’re legends in their own minds… too funny…
Trollman:
Actually, that’s only part of it. You conclude that a benevolent, kind, caring, loving “god” only allows Christians into heaven. This of course, it’s not very kind and rather cruel. That disparity can’t be reconciled.
30 Pcs:
Interesting stuff here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Korea
The spread of Christianity in Korea was aided by the similarity of certain Christian doctrines with a number of Korean traditions. Unlike prevailing Chinese and Japanese religions of the time, shamanist Koreans had an essentially monotheistic concept of a Creator-God,[20] whom they called Hwan-in or Hanal-nim (하날님) (later also Haneul-nim, 하늘님/하느님, or Haneu-nim, 하나님). According to an ancient myth, Hwan-in had a son named Hwan-ung (환웅) who, in turn, had fathered a human son named Tangun in 2333 BC.[21][22][23] According to the story, Tangun founded the Korean nation and taught his people the elements of civilization during his thousand-year reign.[24] There are several variants of this myth, one of which depicts Tangun as having been mothered by a virgin[25]. Some modern theologians have even attempted to explain the Christian concept of the Trinity in terms of the three divine characters in the Tangun myth.[26] These parallels psychologically prepared the Korean people to accept various Christian teachings, such as the incarnation of Jesus.
Trollman, remember I warned you about less-than-zero a few months ago…he’s only good for illustrating the stupidity of atheists/evolutionists…nothing more…a real conversation with him is casting pearls before swine…
You beat me to it.
Sounds like he’s the same emotional/mental age as our bubble gum-popping friend “edelweiss”.
Next, is he going to come up with second-grade “caca” jokes?
BTW, the way he nitpicks to the infinite power, one wonders if he, too, is not a lawyer.
granite:
Please. I have repeatedable tried again and again to engage right4life on a mature level.
His constant “Duhhhhhh” and insanity has wore me down to the point where I determine he is only worthy of the same ridicule he heaps on.
Furthermore, I have done my very best to continue to be polite as possible to people on this board but repeatedly I am told I am evil / going to hell / etc.
Can you not blame me? I am afterall, human. If I was rude to you in the past, I apologize.
he’s a lib, they’ve all got a case of arrested development!
good point!
*repeatedly
Sorry, just making rushed posts, not bothering to proofread.
how can you do something you are obviously incapable of?
for proof look at this thread…I come in with my first post being a link to an article…with very little commentary of my own….
and then less-than-zero says:
mature
zeroangel said:
You made a post a while back where you thought if God was all good, then wouldn’t He be more concerned with us being good people more than believing certain doctrines exactly, or performing religious rituals correctly to the smallest detail? Shouldn’t God be more concerned with whether or not we are good people? How can He send basically good people to Hell just because they got a few minor details wrong?
This sentiment is correct. The problem isn’t that you were wrong, but that you were more right than you imagined.
I didn’t start out thinking that Christianity is true and all other religious systems are false. I didn’t start out thinking that all non-Christians go to Hell. I couldn’t believe it, not on the basis of a reasoned argument, but on the basis that it was emotionally repugnant to me.
Let me compare it to something you might appreciate. On the face of it, it sounds completely absurd that something so complex as a human eye, much less an entire human being, and the rest of the animal & plant kingdom, could all have evolved step by step, directed through impersonal forces.
Yet, as I’m sure you believe, that when you dig down into the matter, paradoxically, you come to that very conclusion. You would have never guessed that when you started your journey, yet nevertheless, there your journey has led you.
The same is true with my evolving belief in salvation. Many things the Bible teaches, I was unwilling to accept. But as I thought about things more, developed better questions, etc., the more the Bible has turned out to be remarkably right. That has been the trend that my questions have born out.
only if all you want to see is evolution…
Trollman:
The problem here is this: there are countless people from many faiths that have reached the exact same conclusions about thier OWN faith, even within different sects of Christianity. There is no general consensus based on any empirical facts (you can’t produce a test to see if anyone person went to Heaven after they died.)
They all can’t be right, and a “god” that condemns non-Christians to not be able to enter Heaven is still not a just “god.”
Zero,
What’s the point of this exercise?
To turn those of us who believe into non-believers? To shake our foundation and make us question that which we believe, which I don’t think any of us arrived at by mere supposition? Are you really searching?
30 pcs:
As always, I am merely responding to other posters and letting the conversation go where it will.
I guarantee you if from this day forth, no one made a statement like the following:
“Atheists are evil, immoral, and going to hell.”
…or something similar you would likely never hear from me on the topic again.
I am not searching, I am trying to bring social awareness to the fact that there are decent people that are mainly conservative AND atheists. No doubt, like me, these others are tired of the fundamentalist lunacy in the Republican Party.
zeroangel said:
All of that is true, but so what?
In evolution, there are many different “sub-theories,” differing views on how mankind evolved, when it happened, etc. Should we therefore conclude that all views must be incorrect? That there are no answers? No. All that means is that at best, only one of them can be correct, or perhaps the correct answer is yet undiscovered. But it would be unsound to conclude that they must all be wrong.
Just because there are different views, that does not entail that they are all equally probable.
The same is true for religion, and even differing views within Christianity.
zeroangel said:
No, we don’t have hard evidence for everything that the Bible teaches (or for evolution, for that matter). What we should do is examine the evidence we do have, and go where that points.
There are a number of things concerning the life & death of Jesus, and the rise of early Christianity, that scholars of all persuasions generally agree to be considered “known historical facts” (Gary Habermas writes in detail about this).
All you have to do, to seriously undermine faith in Christ, is to come up with a naturalistic explanation for all of the known facts. Many have tried just that, and (by their own admission) all have failed. Even one of my agnostic philosophy of religion professors admitted as much – no one has yet to come up with a credible alternative.
zeroangel said:
There is no explicit contradiction in these two premises:
1. God is good, perfect, just, etc.
2. God sends non-Christians to Hell.
That means, for this to be a legitimate argument against the Christian God, you are inserting some hidden premises in order to reach a contradiction. What I’m asking you to do is to bring out those hidden premises.
If you do, then you’ll be able to properly evaluate this line of reasoning, to determine if it is sound, or if it is merely an error of logic that sounds good.
I think you will find that there is no contradiction, that the impetus behind your conclusion is emotion and not logic.
If one wants to be guided by emotion, well, let them be emotional. But emotion doesn’t help us discern truth from error. Emotion doesn’t determine reality. Emotion doesn’t lead us to the truth.
If we are going to be logical people, then we must think logically, and use logic to reach our conclusions.
well you had your way with JUAN MCCAIN…no fundamentalist there..
and you RINOs are nothing more than liberals in country club outfits.
keep losing with us evil fundamentalists cause we sure are sick of being betrayed by you ‘moderates’
you got your party…and you lost…and you’ll keep losing as long as you keep dissing us ‘fundamnetalists’.
zeroangel said:
Why does it bother you?
I am often told the same kinds of things, too. It doesn’t bother me one bit. Now when people distort what the Bible teaches, that gets on my bad side.
Trollman:
True, but the idea that the correct one is the one where “god” condemns any of those that don’t follow the “correct” one sounds like it has an awfully cruel “god,” certainly, not a loving, kind, benevolent one. It’s a contradiction, ergo, it must be false. Either 1. the Christian “god” lets all good people into heaven, 2. he is cruel, 3. he doesn’t exist.
I subscribe to 3. You seem to be trying to reconcile 1 with 2. It’s impossible.
The evidence for evolution is far more compelling than any test for Heaven. I can point to fossils and actual concrete things that one can feel and touch and make inferences from. There is nothing like that for the question of the afterlife.
Your arguments claiming “facts” about Christianity are all appeals to authority. “I have studied this very closely, and it’s true.” As I said, that is no more compelling than a Buddhist relating the “facts” of the life of “Buddha.”
Unless you want to try and completely turn language inside out and get totally subjective, I am sorry, they do contradict.
That burning in Hell for eternity is “bad” and something that shouldn’t be done to decent people just because they don’t believe in your religion?
Are you serious? Firstly, people constantly distort what atheists believe on here and very often try to distort the philosophical implications of being an atheist. I guess I could say that’s what really gets on my nerves, much in the same way as people distorting the Bible does for you. On top of that, it’s just a tad bit annoying.
list your fossils…words, just words…
you cannot.
Mann, C. Lynn Margulis: Science’s Unruly Earth Mother, Science, 252, 19 April 1991: 378-381.
zeroangel said:
You see, we both agree on something, God lets all good people into Heaven. If God let good people go to Hell, then He would be evil.
zeroangel said:
To figure out the history of life, we have a problem. None of us were there, none of us saw it with our own eyes, and none of us have a time machine.
What we do have are facts: fossils in the dirt. We might interpret those facts (fossils) differently, but the facts are the facts.
The same is true concerning Jesus. There are a list of facts known about Him & the rise of early Christianity. I’m not talking about things that only Christians believe, I’m talking about things that even critical, skeptical, non-religious scholars also accept as facts. So you would be wise not to dismiss these out of hand.
Now you have to take these facts, and come up with an explanation that makes sense of those known facts. If your explanation doesn’t fit the known facts, all the worse for your explanation. That is the problem for those who wish to dismiss the resurrection of Jesus. If you do so, you are no longer able to come up with an explanation that fits the known facts.
zeroangel said:
I would never tell someone to believe something because I studied it and you should believe me. I’m encouraging you to study it for yourself! Don’t believe me! But if you don’t believe me, make sure your position is based upon knowledge and not ignorance.
I’m not asking you to believe the resurrection of Jesus, I’m asking you to do some research of your own. Read some of Gary Habermas’ research on the historical evidence for the resurrection. Read their detractors, study the various attempts to explain away those known facts. Judge for yourself.
zeroangel said:
An explicit contradiction would be something like this:
1. God is blue, not orange.
2. God is orange, not blue.
There is no such explicit contradiction.
zeroangel said:
People aren’t sent to Hell just because they don’t believe in Jesus.
This morning, my little one threw a huge hissy fit because one of the gloves were missing. Started screaming, crying, etc. Over something that isn’t important. When I was little, I used to cry over things like that, too. While kids will often make big deals about nothing, they are also often oblivious to far larger matters.
Now that I am an adult, I have a different perspective than what I had as a child. I don’t start crying and gnashing my teeth just because I’ve misplaced my gloves. I am a lot more mature. Some things that seemed so important then are much less important to me now, and vice versa. That comes from time, from years, from experience, from maturing.
Is it possible that God is like an adult, and we are like children? Many of your objections stem from the belief that God is just like you. Have you not changed over the years? Are there things that you have gone through that, at the time, you believed nothing was worth that, but later, you are “glad” you went through those things?
Is it possible that God, who (if He exists) is older than us, smarter than us, has more knowledge than us, and has a different perspective than us (eternal vs. temporal, adult vs. child)?
Should we believe such a God is just like us, or should we believe that He is better than us?
Is it even possible that, the things you currently think are so important, so good, really aren’t? And that, from someone with another perspective, things you don’t think are a big deal, really are a big deal?
Let’s be frank, zeroangel, you might be good, but you’re no angel
. What might be good enough in your mind might not be good enough in someone else’s mind. Or are you too good to possibly be wrong?
Trollman:
I must wonder are these extremely verbose posts for my benefit or your own?
and
Which is it? Or is it that only Christians are “good” people?
I put these questions to rest years and years ago when I was only a child. I remember having to listen to my grandmother tell me if I don’t convert from being a Lutheran to being a Catholic, I am going to hell. That, and, “dinosaur bones were put on earth to test our faith.”
How do you not see the very plain, blatantly obvious? Is it because you refuse to accept it as it would undermine your strongest convictions that you spent so much time reinforcing to yourself and others?
Again, the excruciatingly obvious:
A just “god,” assuming he exists, would not send people to hell just for not believing or even just for not believing in the “correct god”. The idea is abhorrent and no better than the blathering of genocidal Muslim clerics (who doubtless say similar things).
If “better than us” means he cares chiefly about whether or not we believe in him then I would say, how is that better?
I would pose the same question to yourself, after all, I am not the one telling otherwise decent people that the creator of the universe will send them to burn for eternity!
I believe we don’t make such decisions; that rests with God alone. I, for one, don’t condone or condemn behavior that is questionable in regards to heaven or hell. That’s His department, not mine. I have my morals, beliefs and principles that may work for me. As for others, they are judged accordingly. I don’t presume to know exactly how He looks at everything. That’s vanity taken to the extreme.
zeroangel said:
I apologize if my posts are lengthy, but I do try to be thorough and clear when discussing such serious matters. Would you prefer that I responded to you with short, witty, nonsense like others have been known to do?
zeroangel said:
If Christians were good people, they would have no need to become Christians. The Bible teaches that there is only One who is good. He went to Heaven. Everybody else who wants to go to Heaven needs to be forgiven.
zeroangel said:
Let me ask you the same question. Just because some Christians believe stupid things, does that disprove Christianity? Think before you answer, a lot of atheists believe some stupid things, too!
zeroangel said:
Agreed.
zeroangel said:
That isn’t what I meant by Him being “better than us.”
zeroangel said:
Even though you aren’t God, and you have some disagreements with God, you agree with God more than you realize.
A lot of people are under the impression that Hell is a literal lake of fire; everyone who doesn’t go to Heaven literally burns in agony for eternity. Since you don’t want me to go too long, I won’t bore you with why this is a misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches about Hell (but if anyone else is interested, feel free to ask).
God doesn’t punish everyone the same. Jesus taught about “greater sins,” & the “weightier matters of the Law.” That judgment/punishment will be more tolerable for some than others.
And you know who gets it the worst? Not people like you, people like me. Those who are the religious leaders and teachers receive the stricter judgment. If I teach one thing, and live something else, (maybe this will make you grin) then I am the one that is really gonna “burn” in Hell. Worse than those who lived in Sodom.
Those who have heard of Jesus are going to be judged on a completely different level than those who have never heard of Him.
The jihadis who go around blowing up children, they’re going to get punished on a whole ‘nother level than the guy that just told a little lie here or there. But everyone will receive what is just (or better – if you are forgiven).
Now isn’t that fair? Is that not just? Punishment that is proportional, that fits the crime?
graysonret said:
But you do presume!
You presume that God didn’t/wouldn’t/couldn’t tell us what His standards are.
If God did in fact tell us what His standards are, it would be presumptuous to claim it was vanity to agree with God.
how can you agree with that??
Jesus said: ‘I am The Way The Truth, and The Life, NO ONE comes to the Father, but by Me’
Trollman:
Shorter and more to the point of the matter at hand would be preferable.
That said, clarify for me because I am reading two different things:
Do you, or do you not think that only Christians go to Heaven?
On top of that, don’t you think it’s a bit ridiculous that you are actually and seriously claiming to have some knowledge about what happens and where people go after they DIE? You also seem to claim to have some knowledge about what the creator of the universe agrees or disagrees with:
Can you not see this is the absolute height of arrogance?
Finally, I do not at all “grin” over the idea that someone will suffer hell for all eternity. I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemies (to include murderous jihadists).
right4life said:
People perish for their sin, for doing wicked things, not for being ignorant.
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.” John 9:41
Children who die go to Heaven – even though they don’t know who Jesus is. Infants don’t believe in Jesus. All of the OT saints went to Heaven without believing in Jesus Christ, without knowing the death, burial, & resurrection.
People don’t perish from a lack of knowledge, or from recognizing some bare fact as true, but because they are disobedient, proud, etc.
but thats not exactly what he said..
God does send you to hell for not believing in Him, and what His Son did….
if you don’t believe in Him, you deny Him…if you believe in another God, you deny Him..
play the game, pay the price….
thats because He told us…see the BIBLE…sigh…
…because the Upanishads couldn’t possibly be right, what with all their crazy talk about being nice to other people, not stealing, not lying, etc.
zeroangel said:
I think only perfect people deserve Heaven. In that regard, there has only been One – Jesus.
The Bible teaches that God has dealt with people differently over different periods of time. Before the cross of Christ, there were people who entered Heaven (and obviously weren’t Christians since Christianity wasn’t there yet). In the present age, I believe only those who are Christians go to Heaven (in addition to those who aren’t morally accountable for their actions – those who die as little children, those who never mentally mature, and so forth).
zeroangel said:
If I was passing off my own speculations as fact, then yes, I’d agree it is completely ridiculous. But let me now ask you a question:
I know you don’t believe all this, but go with me for a minute, for the sake of argument. Suppose you saw with your own eyes someone do things that can’t be done. Control the weather, teleport, bring people back to life. Suppose furthermore that this person told you they were going to die in a certain fashion, and then raise himself back up at a specific time. And then that happens.
Assuming you had personally witnessed this, which is more reasonable to believe, that this person probably knew diddly about life & death, or that they had access to special knowledge? Obviously, it would be more reasonable to believe what this person told you about life & death.
Back to us, neither one of us have seen these things. Neither of us has seen life evolve on earth, either. Do you think it is presumptuous to tell r4l about how life evolved on this earth? You weren’t there. But you say you have strong inferences based upon the known facts. Well, I say the same thing to you. And if you haven’t done your homework on this matter, then it is presumptuous of you to tell me I am being ridiculous!
zeroangel said:
Not even r4L? Just messing with you.
Once again, you are in agreement with God. He doesn’t want that to happen to anyone either. He shed His own blood to prove it, but some people you just can’t reason with (jihadis, for example).
And if Hell was a literal lake of fire that everyone was cast into, to burn for eternity, I’d have a problem with that, too. But that isn’t what Hell is.
right4life said:
r4l, I don’t think we’re in disagreement here, it is a question of semantics. No sinner today can go to Heaven apart from being a follower of Christ.
The people in John 12:43, for example, refused to confess Jesus, not because they didn’t believe in Him, but because they preferred convenience over principle. There was a sin problem back of their decision. I believe the sin is what condemned them. Does that make sense?
Trollman:
So decent, kind people that aren’t Christian don’t. Back to my original point, this doesn’t sound like a just “god.”
I think you yourself actually tried to reason with him, but that’s an aside.
On the one hand we are talking about a theory in the context of actual physical laws and things we can touch, see, feel, hear, etc. On the other hand you are talking about breaking the laws of physics. There is no comparison.
Appeal to authority. No doubt you have a great many things you are convinced are “facts” or “evidence” of Jesus’s divinity. I have heard some of the arguments. There is no clear empirical evidence for the divinity of Jesus (or Buddha, or Muhammad, or anyone).
So, what is it? A condo in Jersey?
you presume that people are basically good…the bible SAYS people are evil. no ifs ands or buts.
you can doubt the bible, feel free…but realize it has a track record of history, and prophecy, that are unmatched anywhere else.
doubt it at your peril…but don’t complain about it. you have the choice…God is just, pure righteous, and Holy…not matter what you say…and in the end, it won’t matter what YOU say….it only matters what HE says….
yeah, it does.
especially if you can’t me the mechanism by which it evolved…
I think it is….lazarus and the rich man…..
right4life:
I am not complaining. I am pointing out that strictest fundamentalism (even the Christian version) is inconsistent, immoral, and just plain cruel.
zeroangel said:
They get precisely what they deserve. They don’t deserve Heaven, since that is the perfect reward reserved for perfect people. Instead, they get whatever “level” of Hell that they have earned. According to Jesus, the punishment will vary, and it will “fit the crime.”
zeroangel said:
There is a comparison. We are trying to reason from the evidence what happened in the past. Unlike the development of life on earth, however, we do have eyewitnesses to the time and events of the life of Jesus, and their testimony, rather than just bare artifacts.
Miracles don’t violate the laws of physics, not even as we know them. Keep in mind, it might well be the case that our current understanding of natural laws are flawed, but that is beside the point.
If the Bible said Jesus merely rose from the dead, that would violate much of what we know about biology, chemistry, and so on. But that isn’t what the Bible says.
Science says, all things being equal, such and such will happen. But that is only if all things remain equal. If we interfere, we can change the results. I don’t violate the law of gravity when I catch a falling apple, preventing it from hitting the earth.
If God, a Person, decides to intervene in earthly events, who’s to say He can’t do that? If you say you know He didn’t do that, then how do you know? I’ve already explained how I know (to be more precise, believe) that God raised Jesus from the dead. He isn’t breaking natural laws by raising Jesus back to life, anymore than a doctor who uses electric paddles violates natural law to bring a person back to life.
zeroangel said:
No, that is not an appeal to authority. It is a question of warrant, or justification for our beliefs. Even if it turns out you are right and I am wrong, your belief (maybe it is correct, maybe not) is not justified.
zeroangel said:
But from your posts, I can reasonably conclude you aren’t that familiar with this particular historical argument for the resurrection (one of the better lines of evidence for Christianity). If I am wrong and you have, however, then explain to me what naturalistic explanation you adhere to, that doesn’t violate the known facts?
zeroangel said:
So? Not everything is a question of science or open to empirical investigation.
The resurrection of Jesus isn’t a law of nature, it is an historical event. You don’t prove history through empirical experiments. You can’t literally repeat history. The resurrection is open to historical investigation, which I encourage everyone to do.
zeroangel said:
Perhaps for some – those that have been really bad in this life.
right4life said:
Maybe you are right and I am wrong. After all, it isn’t impossible to understand the Bible in that manner.
I prefer to assume the Bible is speaking literally, unless I have good reason to think otherwise. I think there are good reasons to think otherwise when it comes to the nature of Hell.
I do believe Hell is a real place, that sadly, most people throughout history go there, and that it is definitely a place you don’t want to go. It can’t compare to Heaven for sure!
But take the passage you refer to, the rich man & Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. You can make a plausible argument that Jesus is talking about real people and real events, and for the other side, that it is just a story He made up to teach a point. Either way, for my purposes, it doesn’t matter, so go with what you like.
In this story, you have a man being punished in the afterlife by flame. His brothers are still alive and living on the earth, which means this happens before the final judgment and day of resurrection. That means his body is in the grave, not in Hell. In context, this man is suffering in a disembodied state, as a disembodied spirit, awaiting the day of resurrection.
The man wants water on his tongue, but he literally doesn’t have a tongue, he is a spirit, non-physical. How do you put (physical) water on something that isn’t physical? How does flame burn that which isn’t physical? So then, there is good reason to conclude that the tongue isn’t literal, the water isn’t literal, and the flame isn’t real.
The man is real (at least in the story), the torment is real, the place he is in is real, but I don’t think some of the specific details in the story are real.
If the fire isn’t literal in this punishment story, then how can someone insist that the fire must be taken literally in other passages dealing with punishment?
There are several other reasons why I do not believe Hell to be a literal place of fire, but that would make this post even longer.
Just to add one more thing to my last post. I don’t think the chasm mentioned in the rich man & Lazarus story is there to teach that there is a literal chasm in the afterlife.
In other stories that teach about punishment, it is described as a locked door. The point of the chasm isn’t to say that there is a chasm there, but it serves a role in the story to teach that your fate is fixed once you die.
Those who go to the good part of the afterlife remain there, and those who go to the bad part remain there, your destiny is fixed at that point (which is in contrast to this life, as long as you still draw breath, you have the opportunity to change your destination).
I take the flame in the same way I take the chasm – to teach about the afterlife, without teaching you what literally is the afterlife.
Trollman:
Let’s try it this way:
Who gets a “worse” level of hell: a Christian that committed rape and murder during his lifetime, or an atheist that never even had a speeding ticket?
I have never seen any evidence of “god” intervening in the laws of physics. There is none, and if someone claimed it to be true, I would be very skeptical.
I am not going to debate revisionist history with you. The claim that there are “facts” that support Jesus rising from the dead is ludicrous.
I really should leave you and right4life to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and try to deduce the nature of hell from the Bible. I was about to call it a thread, but the lengths you go are just amazing.
zeroangel said:
2nd Peter 2:18-22 seems pretty clear to me, it is better to never have been a Christian, than to become a Christian and later turn away.
zeroangel said:
Me neither. Most people haven’t seen miracles with their own eyes.
zeroangel said:
People have claimed to have seen these very things. Someone’s testimony that they saw such-and-such may not be great evidence, or even good evidence, but it should count for something. It is more than “no” evidence.
But we have more than just some guy’s testimony, regarding the resurrection of Jesus. What if someone is willing to suffer and die for their testimony, standing behind what they say they saw? Then the evidential worth of that testimony improves.
Then, what if you receive unwitting corroboration from sources hostile to the one testifying? Better evidence still. And so on. You have all of this and more with regard to the resurrection of Jesus.
zeroangel said:
I think your rather forceful dismissal of things you have not even studied is ludicrous, but to each their own. Everyone has to judge for themselves. There are some people who still believe OJ is innocent.
zeroangel said:
I enjoy thinking about and discussing these kinds of things. That is part of the reason I changed course in my life. Some people spend hours doing crossword puzzles, I like to spend my time thinking about such matters. Shrug.
Trollman:
You didn’t answer my question, nor does 2nd Peter 2:18-22.
Which is worse: becoming an atheist or murdering and raping?
Oh my goodness!
Just for kicks, I reread 2nd Peter!
2 Peter 2:13-14 (New International Version)
2 Peter 2:13-14 (Contemporary English Version)
More of the same! Atheists (or non-Christians) are immoral / evil / etc. We cheat on our spouses and we are shameful and selfish! Shocking!
you know, it really doesn’t matter, other than degrees of suffering..the only sin that really counts is rejecting Jesus…
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
its really that simple…spurn His grace, earn His wrath…
learn to love, cause its the only thing going…and I’m afraid you’ll learn the hard way…
you get into realms that we really don’t fully understand…but when lazarus said he wanted a drop of water on his tongue…he knew several things…one he had a tongue…whether you believe it was a ‘tongue’ as we understand it…he sure did…he also knew he was thirsty…and there was no water, only fire where he was…he also could see lazarus…and there was water where lazarus was, or he wouldn’t have asked for any..
I think hell is FAR worse than we can imagine…just as heaven is FAR better than we can imagine…
ever read the screwtape letters?? where the demons get to feed on each other??? and that part about the ‘worm not dying’…yeah…
right4life:
Anyone (mortal or “god”) that can’t unequivocally state that rape or murder is much worse than becoming an atheist is either insane or cruel.
learn to love IT….sorry.
well obviously it is, as I said there are degrees of punishment…but you’ll be damned just for rejecting Jesus…He’ll reject you…
then your actions, thoughts, deeds..give you degrees of punishment in hell…as degrees of reward in heaven…
right4life:
Oh? OK, now we are finally getting somewhere. So, that said, on what level would you place becoming an atheist?
Theft? How much? Adultery? Lying? What sin is comparable to atheism?
what does it matter?? the only thing that matters is what about Jesus? accept or reject…from there its only a matter of degrees…
Christians sin, but they’re forgiven…because we believe in what Jesus did…His atonement…reject that atonement…and you have to pay for your sins on your own…
right4life:
So… a murder and rapist that becomes a Christian goes to Heaven, and an atheist that never so much as got a speeding ticket goes to Hell?
Is that correct?
zeroangel said:
Peter isn’t talking about all atheists, or atheists at all, for that matter. In the context, he is referring to those he mentions in 2 Peter 2:1-3. They are false teachers, bad religious leaders.
They aren’t religious teachers who are sincere, yet mistaken, these are people who deliberately twist religion to suit their own selfish desires. Like the priest that abuses children, or the TV evangelist who tricks poor people into sending in their money, just to live a life of luxury.
I think these kinds of people deserve their own “special little corner” of Hell, don’t you?
I thought I did answer your question, but apparently not (the wording was a bit ambiguous).
yes. His mercy is everlasting. and one sin is enough to damn you to hell…
Then why did you quote it for me?
No. I do not. The concept of Hell (punishment for eternity) sounds too cruel even for the most vile people. I suppose I could get on board with the concept of Purgatory, if I believed in any of it.
In any case, I would like a clear answer:
Who gets a “worse” level of hell: a Christian that committed rape and murder during his lifetime, or an atheist that never even had a speeding ticket?
right4life said:
What about the chasm? Is it a literal chasm? Then why is this uncrossable divide described elsewhere as a locked door with no mention of a chasm? If it is a place of fire, then why is it described in other places as a place of darkness? Shouldn’t the fire light things up?
right4life said:
I agree. Which is one of the reasons why I think the descriptions of Heaven & Hell in the Bible are designed to give us impressions of these places, rather than to tell us exactly what they are (which would be beyond our current ability to understand).
I know you don’t think its ‘fair’ but then who are we to judge whats fair?? but its really simple…if you accept His atonement, your sins are paid for…if you do not…you have to pay for your own sins…
and may God have mercy on you…but He won’t…
the rich man perceived it as a chasm…but what does it matter? there was no crossing it, whatever it was…and how do you hold a spirit in a place like that??? who knows…just as certain angels are bound in the darkness awaiting judgement…what are they bound by? who knows…
yeah we are incapable of understanding these things…..its like trying to describe the color red to a man born blind…
you know I used to wonder about why there was no marriage in heaven….at least until I got married
the atheist gets hell..the christian gets heaven….its all about the atonement, and what HE did…and whether you accept it or not…reject what He did..and no matter how ‘good’ you think someone is….they’re not good enough..
right4life:
Not fair? That is a massive understatement. It is immoral, cruel, and completely wrong. As I said earlier, it is no better than the prattling of some deranged Muslim cleric.
zeroangel said:
To show that Christians who later go astray suffer worse than people who have never been a Christian. Apparently I misunderstood your question.
zeroangel said:
The question is ambiguous, I thought you meant a Christian who then goes astray, to murder and rape and continue living a lifestyle in opposition to the Gospel of grace.
If you mean someone who commits murder, rape, etc., repents, tries to make things right to the best of his ability, becomes a Christian and remains faithful to Christ to the death, then such a person doesn’t go to Hell, he is forgiven and goes to Heaven. James 2:13b
right4life said:
Not touching that with a 10 foot pole…
Trollman:
That’s only half the question. What about the atheist that never got a speeding ticket? Where is he while the repentant murder and rapist is living large in Heaven?
you know the bottom line is you don’t get to judge..HE does…and you can like it, or not..but there is nothing you can do about it…
you can shake your fist at Him in hell for eternity…and it doesn’t hurt Him at all..
at the end of the day HE has the power to do as HE likes…your judgement doesn’t matter. He gives you a choice…reject what Jesus did, and suffer the consequences…accept it, and get the benefits!
its really pretty simple…you don’t really have to DO anything, except throw yourself on His mercy…why people reject that is beyond me….HE already paid the price for you….and thats your choice…HE pays..or YOU pay….
I’m not certain why any of this matters to you. You’re an atheist who doesn’t believe there is a God. Therefore, there wouldn’t a Heaven or a Hell. And if we kooky Christians wish to believe that all of these things exist what does that matter to you? It’s all a figment of our imagination!
This argument is simply circles back to what God (if He exists) thinks about you. I can’t speak for Him. But again, why does any of it matter?
you shouldn’t let your wife read what you write!!
oh man if she saw some of the stuff I wrote…
she’d beat me more than she does already!!
you know how EVIL they (women) are..
zeroangel said:
According to Jesus, punishment in Hell varies with the individual and their level of guilt. Everyone who goes to Hell gets exactly what they deserve, no more, no less. It is not one-sized punishment fits all, it is tailored to the individual. That is perfectly fair.
The Christian going to Heaven, that isn’t fair, that is better than fair. That doesn’t somehow make Him less than fair to the other. That person could have asked to receive the same free gift that the Christian did. It was their choice. God is always at least fair. Matthew 20:1-16
30 pcs:
As I said to you before, I am trying to bring social awareness of this topic to other conservatives.
As decent, thinking, moral human beings we should reject the cruel version of “god” that right4life seems to subscribe to in the same way we would reject the radical Muslim version of “god.” Atheist or not, what they say is unacceptable.
It is my sincere hope that you do not subscribe to the same cruel and unjust notions they do.
Trollman:
So, the repentant murder and rapist goes to Heaven and the perfectly kind, gentle, law-abiding atheist is punished is some fashion, correct?
right4life said:
Too late, I’m going to show my wife what you wrote, then she’ll tell your wife. Women have a network like that, y’know? They just know things… they always know.
When she finds out, try to find a way to get back to me on what Heaven (or Hell, as the case may be) is like.
lets see, if you reject Him..He suffers no ill consequences…YOU do..
have fun with that!
zeroangel said:
Is this atheist sinless or a sinner?
thats CRUEL!! ever see the housewives of orange county??? (love those girls)
money-hungry, power-hungry…skin ya and smile doin it!! oh yeah those are my kinda girls!! 
and the truth is, they’re just honest!!!
(hopping aboard the next flight to tahiti….)
r4l, I just showed my wife your posts. She laughed out loud (as she began dialing your wife’s number…)
Mwuahaha!
Trollman:
Let’s say for the sake of argument, in the course of his entire life the worst crime he committed was he stole a 25 cent candy bar on a dare when he was a young boy.
We will also throw in a few white lies here and there, like, “No you don’t look fat in the dress.”
For the most part, let’s say the guy is as decent a human being one can reasonably expect any person to be and then some. Let’s even say he donates about 10% of his income to various charities.
you’ve gone over to the dark side
I’ll be praying for ya!
she’s got ya fooled!! sad…
I just downloaded old Glenn Campbell’s latest….these days…its a great song…he’s weathered…I like that!!
kris kristoferson has a song called ‘this old road’ same kind of song…
both christians…check it out!
Social awareness of what topic, atheism? You may not like what people think about atheism but if it is your life’s work to remove some stigma perhaps your approach is all wrong. You don’t need to bring awareness to atheism by denigrating someone’s personal and deeply held beliefs. You may say, that we are attacking you; however, this thread is about abortion and I fail to see what that has to do with atheism. You take issue with abortion beyond the 1st trimester and some believe it is wrong period. We take different paths but we meet up somewhere in the middle on this issue.
You have and you are looking for converts. It’s not going to happen. Mainly because you’re insulting people’s intelligence. Islam is soooo not on par with Christianity, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to rehash that debate.
What you say is unacceptable for the reasons I noted above. This is a classic case of agree to disagree.
I’m a Christian and I won’t apologize for it.
zeroangel said:
In my understanding of the Bible, you aren’t morally accountable for your choices until you reach a certain level of understanding, “being able to choose the right from the wrong.”
So as I understand it, the little boy stealing the candy may not even be capable of sinning, anymore than can a 3 year old be capable of cold-blooded murder. It could be a case of theft, without there necessarily being the imparting of actual moral guilt.
As far as giving your wife a compliment, it depends. It may not even be considered a “lie” under certain circumstances.
See how silly this is becoming? Getting into such nitpickiness is beyond my calling anyway. God is the final arbiter, not me. What He has done is given us some guiding principles.
The Bible teaches that all of us (who reaches a certain level of mental/spiritual maturity) sin, and apart from being forgiven, we will go to Hell. Seems pretty clear to me.
Doing good deeds, giving money to charity, etc., does nothing to undo the evil you have done. You will receive reward for the good you did, and punishment for the evil you did (2 Cor. 5:10).
Works aren’t what ensure your path to Heaven … Christian or not. You’re a sinner and I’m a sinner. We are on equal footing. The judgment is on all of our heads.
30 pcs:
If those beliefs involve the idea that a decent person should go to hell before a murder and rapist then they deserve to be denigrated.
I never said Christianity is on par with Muslims. However, the notions of a that “god” is cruel and unjust at least seems common between right4life and Muslim radicals.
So? So are my parents but they don’t think I am going to hell. Are they not “true” Christians? I am NOT looking for converts, I am looking for sensible Christians and other people to reject fundamentalism in all forms.
Trollman:
It’s frustrating that you simply can’t give a clear answer to a simple and direct question. I will have to assume that you DO in fact believe that our benevolent atheist has more to fear in the afterlife than the repentant murderer and rapist.
So I take it you are a “judgment triumphs over mercy” kind of guy then?
Trollman:
No, to be accurate I am a “the concept of hell is too cruel to be the workings of a just God” kinda guy.
But am I an atheist that was raised Lutheran *smile*. Maybe that explains it?
In any case, I must at least thank you for taking the time to engage me on this topic.
God forgives all who sincerely ask for it, sounds like a good God to me.
Don’t know much about Lutherans.
And if I didn’t give you simple answers to some of your questions, it was because I saw some ambiguity in your wording, and didn’t want to be misunderstood. So I gave answers that should be able to answer whatever question you had, and several other questions as well.
zeroangel said:
You owe me more than gratitude, you owe me a sermon! The time I would have spent working on my sermon today was spent talking with y’all.