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1. #201
   On March 18th, 2009 at 7:21 pm, NestingHawk said:

   On March 18th, 2009 at 10:39 am, zeroangel said:
   NestingHawk:

   My understanding of the vegan lifestyle is that no animal products can be used. What constitutes an animal though? Since you include insects, I am thinking that at least all animals with a CNS of a form are off-limits. What about animals without? How about jellyfish, which have a simple “nerve net” but no brain? How about sponges? Is whether or not the animal has the capacity to “suffer” or feel pain the cutoff?

   It’s easier to exclude all animals than to memorize the few exceptions that don’t have a CNS, but yes, the CNS is key to me. Others seem to go a certain classification difference from humans and then stop. People have different cut-offs, but in someone who has been a vegetarian for awhile it’s usually not arbitrary, even if in some cases it might seem complex.

   If you feel that causing the suffering of animals is cruel and inhumane do you feel compelled to intervene in the senseless killing perpetrated by lions upon gazelles on the African plains? Are lions murderers? Would it be proper or responsible for us as humans to ensure all the lions receive dietary supplements so they won’t kill gazelles?

   My ability to say “This is wrong and I will not do this” or even to understand that other beings can suffer is what makes me better than a lion. Also, the lion probably has a more meat-dependent diet. My system can get by fine without. The lion is not at fault. That doesn’t mean I would not be. I hold myself to higher and different standards than I would a lion.

   Next question: No, I don’t consider it my obligation to feed the lions something else. Kind of like I don’t consider it my obligation to heckle meat-eaters while they dine. It’s between you, the meat, and the divine. I can’t do everything, and, in the case of dining, I believe good manners are important.

   I think it is questions like these that make me cringe when I hear about vegetarian or vegan diets. It just seems so illogical and arbitrary. I am much happier to not deny my nature in the meantime while waiting for stem cell research to provide us with meat grown in vats.

   My ethical standards are not wholly governed by what is and isn’t natural, and I enjoy the fake meats people have come up with already.

2. #202
   On March 18th, 2009 at 7:39 pm, chapoutier said:

   It’s not recreational; it’s a personal ethical choice/ boycott. But have you ever had a grilled portabello sandwich? Those are good. Actually, I wish more grill restaurants would grill some vegetables by themselves. Grilled vegetables are good.

   Indeed. Grilled portabello marinated in rosemary and balsamic vinagrette makes a fine burger if you top it with some mozzarella, lettuce, onion…whatever.

   But you do realize, don’t you, that John, and I, are just messing with you? I am married to a vegetarian. I think I can get past it with you.

3. #203
   On March 18th, 2009 at 9:50 pm, NestingHawk said:

   Chapoutier,
   On the Internet, it can be hard to tell to what extent someone is kidding around or not, so I wasn’t assuming either way. But I was distinctly not raised to be a vegetarian and hung out with carnivores (I do not mean omnivores) in school, so if I got offended and excitable…well, wasted energy and all that. And some of what you said made me laugh anyway.
   I entered the thread just because it seemed like a lot of the same misconceptions were showing up on every thread connected to vegetarianism. (People seemed to think that all vegetarian diets required supplements, the words vegetarian and vegan were interchangeable, and that every last vegetarian on the planet just loved PETA, or possibly was a member.) So I wanted to see if I could clear some of that up-if I cleared up some of it in response to being teased, that works, too!
   The “sea kittens” thing still makes me chuckle.

4. #204
   On March 19th, 2009 at 10:02 am, misterbee241 said:

   Vegetables are rabbit food – feed the rabbit then eat him.

5. #205
   On March 20th, 2009 at 1:50 pm, zeroangel said:

   NestingHawk:

   A fair answer. I guess I would say we are more or less the same however my cutoff ends somewhere around chimpanzees and dolphins.

   I think what I am driving at with the lion is as follows:

   Any living creature whom I would feel their life is worthy of intervening to protect is not something I should be eating. Counter-wise, any living creature whom I don’t feel a need to intervene on their behalf is something I wouldn’t have a problem with being consumed.

   That is to say, lions killing gazelles don’t bother me, but I would kill a lion that tried to eat a human, a chimpanzee or a dolphin, if I were in a position to do so.

   On the other hand, since I would let a lion eat a gazelle (or cow, or pig) I wouldn’t have a problem eating it myself.