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A fair answer. I guess I would say we are more or less the same however my cutoff ends somewhere around chimpanzees and dolphins.

I think what I am driving at with the lion is as follows:

Any living creature whom I would feel their life is worthy of intervening to protect is not something I should be eating. Counter-wise, any living creature whom I don’t feel a need to intervene on their behalf is something I wouldn’t have a problem with being consumed.

That is to say, lions killing gazelles don’t bother me, but I would kill a lion that tried to eat a human, a chimpanzee or a dolphin, if I were in a position to do so.

On the other hand, since I would let a lion eat a gazelle (or cow, or pig) I wouldn’t have a problem eating it myself.

It’s not recreational; it’s a personal ethical choice/ boycott. But have you ever had a grilled portabello sandwich? Those are good. Actually, I wish more grill restaurants would grill some vegetables by themselves. Grilled vegetables are good.

Indeed. Grilled portabello marinated in rosemary and balsamic vinagrette makes a fine burger if you top it with some mozzarella, lettuce, onion…whatever.

But you do realize, don’t you, that John, and I, are just messing with you? I am married to a vegetarian. I think I can get past it with you.

On March 18th, 2009 at 10:39 am, zeroangel said:
NestingHawk:

My understanding of the vegan lifestyle is that no animal products can be used. What constitutes an animal though? Since you include insects, I am thinking that at least all animals with a CNS of a form are off-limits. What about animals without? How about jellyfish, which have a simple “nerve net” but no brain? How about sponges? Is whether or not the animal has the capacity to “suffer” or feel pain the cutoff?

It’s easier to exclude all animals than to memorize the few exceptions that don’t have a CNS, but yes, the CNS is key to me. Others seem to go a certain classification difference from humans and then stop. People have different cut-offs, but in someone who has been a vegetarian for awhile it’s usually not arbitrary, even if in some cases it might seem complex.

If you feel that causing the suffering of animals is cruel and inhumane do you feel compelled to intervene in the senseless killing perpetrated by lions upon gazelles on the African plains? Are lions murderers? Would it be proper or responsible for us as humans to ensure all the lions receive dietary supplements so they won’t kill gazelles?

My ability to say “This is wrong and I will not do this” or even to understand that other beings can suffer is what makes me better than a lion. Also, the lion probably has a more meat-dependent diet. My system can get by fine without. The lion is not at fault. That doesn’t mean I would not be. I hold myself to higher and different standards than I would a lion.

Next question: No, I don’t consider it my obligation to feed the lions something else. Kind of like I don’t consider it my obligation to heckle meat-eaters while they dine. It’s between you, the meat, and the divine. I can’t do everything, and, in the case of dining, I believe good manners are important.

I think it is questions like these that make me cringe when I hear about vegetarian or vegan diets. It just seems so illogical and arbitrary. I am much happier to not deny my nature in the meantime while waiting for stem cell research to provide us with meat grown in vats.

My ethical standards are not wholly governed by what is and isn’t natural, and I enjoy the fake meats people have come up with already.

On March 18th, 2009 at 12:39 am, John Deaux said:
NestingHawk,

Boca burgers are a gateway drug to a radical PETA endorsed lifestyle. Sure, you might think it’s fun now, but you won’t be laughing when you see a picture of yourself on CNN holding a “meat is murder” sign.

Well, a few things. I do think if killing animals is unnecessary it shouldn’t be done, so “meat is murder,” while debatable, does not sound as outrageous to me as it does to you. So you would be bothered by that, not me. (If we’re talking about actual outlawing, that would just be stupid. Even if it turns out to be practical to not have anybody eat meat and we eventually accomplish the culture change, for the time being that practice is so contrary to the prevailing culture that such a law’s accomplishments would all be on behalf of the criminal underworld, and that’s likely to be the case for hundreds of years.)

Also, I wouldn’t likely see a picture of myself on CNN period, as I pretty much get all my news from Fox.

I think comparing the average vegetarian to a PETA member is like comparing the average handgun owner to people in bunkers and eating pigeons. PETA people are crazy and they are embarrassing to vegetarians. I did once take a look at their website to ensure they were quite as crazy as I had heard they were, and got to the part about the ideal animal shelter wherein cats would understand each other’s rights and live in harmony, and kept picturing somebody trying to a) explain this to the cats and b) make the cats care. I believe cats are more intelligent than we give them credit for, but community theory? And human sensibilities?

PETA wouldn’t like me. I wear leather shoes for reasons of practicality, I eat dairy products all the time, I’m not against ALL animal testing and don’t check my products carefully against it…

I just hope you can keep it recreational, otherwise, we’ll have to have an intervention/barbecue.

It’s not recreational; it’s a personal ethical choice/ boycott. But have you ever had a grilled portabello sandwich? Those are good. Actually, I wish more grill restaurants would grill some vegetables by themselves. Grilled vegetables are good.

On March 18th, 2009 at 10:09 am, happyscrapper said:

Obama has trashed any and all decorum the WH had with his treatment of the British PM, his appearance on a comedy show, his refusal to meet with Medal of Honor recipients, on and on. He is trashing the WH as we speak. Green dye in the fountain is the least of our worries with that juvenile running the country.

You are right that the green water is the least of the offenses. But there’s a pattern forming. Add to it Michelle’s idea to remove the extra glassware and flatware from the White House dinner tables because it makes people uncomfortable who don’t know what to do with them. Doesn’t it occur to her maybe she should raise her standards instead of lowering the nations?

On March 17th, 2009 at 8:32 pm, John Deaux said:
I fully intend to write them a strongly worded letter filled with harsh language and dripping with sarcasm

I don’t blame you. But then crockpot people have different standards for acceptable.

Imus Gets his Irish up in Boston. Jay Severin mother wears combat boots:)

http://youhavetobethistalltogoonthisride.blogspot.com/2009/03/boston-showdown-note-to-imus-basic.html

lgm said:
You feel the need to ridicule good intentions.

The road to hell is paved with “good intentions”.

And we will ignore the hypocrisy of your statement as well.

My understanding of the vegan lifestyle is that no animal products can be used. What constitutes an animal though? Since you include insects, I am thinking that at least all animals with a CNS of a form are off-limits. What about animals without? How about jellyfish, which have a simple “nerve net” but no brain? How about sponges? Is whether or not the animal has the capacity to “suffer” or feel pain the cutoff?

If you feel that causing the suffering of animals is cruel and inhumane do you feel compelled to intervene in the senseless killing perpetrated by lions upon gazelles on the African plains? Are lions murderers? Would it be proper or responsible for us as humans to ensure all the lions receive dietary supplements so they won’t kill gazelles?

I think it is questions like these that make me cringe when I hear about vegetarian or vegan diets. It just seems so illogical and arbitrary. I am much happier to not deny my nature in the meantime while waiting for stem cell research to provide us with meat grown in vats.

On March 18th, 2009 at 9:32 am, Jimmie said:
The problem with “good intentions” is that NO ONE even utters the words until they have done something REALLY bad…..”well I had good intentions?”….so Yea I will ridicule the phrase. One only gets to use it once….after that it is proof positive of utter stupidity.

And don’t forget that even ACORN has “good intentions”.

On March 17th, 2009 at 6:04 pm, chapoutier said:
I think you mean “gaudy”, pure alchemy.

I don’t think its gaudy (or bawdy). Here in RI, they light the top of the capitol building green on St. Pats and pink on whatever the day is we are supposed to be aware of breast cancer as well as other colors on certain other occasions. It is hardly over the top and I think hardly distracts from the decorum.

Obama has trashed any and all decorum the WH had with his treatment of the British PM, his appearance on a comedy show, his refusal to meet with Medal of Honor recipients, on and on. He is trashing the WH as we speak. Green dye in the fountain is the least of our worries with that juvenile running the country.