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Comments

1. #201
   On March 19th, 2009 at 6:20 pm, undresiege said:

   The problem with that is that often you end up with the government deciding what is the “correct” peranting techneques. One thing I have learned is that the government makes a really crappy perant.

   Sometimes gov. get’s too involved, and sometimes they aren’t involved enough(take a look at some of the abuse cases that DCFS have tragically dropped the ball on). What I think should be beyond dispute is that, some parents are neglectful, broke, or both. Taxpayers have an obligation to make sure that the basic health safety needs of kids are met.

2. #202
   On March 19th, 2009 at 6:27 pm, DannoJyd said:

   Conservatives typically want poor unwanted children to be born into crappy, decadent, impoverished, and often abusive households

   I guess it is the conservatives who are taxing charitable donations? I am a conservative, and thus know for a fact that I lost my deduction on $400.00 of the donations I made last year here in Michigan. What surprises me is Da Bama didn’t tax more of those.

   Democrats must love these poor people as they get so much use of them come election time. Speaking of wanting poor unwanted children to be born into crappy, decadent, impoverished, and often abusive households, how is it that ChiTcago, a liberal stronghold for as long as I’ve been alive [over 40 years], continues to keep their poor unwanted children to be born into crappy, decadent, impoverished, and often abusive households? If liberalism were the answer, those wouldn’t exist, right?

3. #203
   On March 19th, 2009 at 6:28 pm, undresiege said:

   And for those instances where financial assistance is warranted, conservatives believe this is the job of charity, where individual givers can support those charities that succeed at the task – not government taking it by force in taxation and giving it without regard for the benefit that assistance has.

   The fundamental flaw I see in your argument is that you assume there are lots of charitable people out there, in all communities, like you and your wife. Folks like you aren’t out there in abundance everywhere, and kids are suffering in the mean time. Moreover, few conservatives(or liberals) that I’ve encountered have stepped up to the plate like you did, yet they judge and dismiss. Again, the basic argument on this thread concerning RSS’ point is, “Chick shouldn’t have gotten recklessly knocked up, it’s not my problem, and any help will be abused anyway.” That’s insensitive rubbish, and kids are suffering.

4. #204
   On March 19th, 2009 at 6:38 pm, karnold said:

   Undresiege: if that’s what you believe, then let’s think this through to its logical conclusion.

   You say taxpayers have an obligation to meet the needs of impoverished children. If that’s what the majority of people in America feel, then let’s stop taxing people for it, and instead, let them keep that money so they can give it to charities and other services voluntarily, deciding for themselves where their dollars will do the most good. If you’re right and that’s what most people feel, then the children in legitimate need will be cared for. And the money won’t be allowed to go to Dad’s crack problem, Mom’s bourbon, or lottery tickets.

   If it’s the will of the people, it will happen. Do you trust that?

   The fundamental flaw I see in your argument is that your belief is that the money should be taken involuntarily from all taxpayers and redistributed as some bureaucrats see fit, with the burden falling the most heavily on the sector paying the disproportionately higher share of the burden. You’re fine with being charitable with other people’s money.

   I’ve told you why I have a right to my position on this. What’s your story?

5. #205
   On March 19th, 2009 at 7:05 pm, undresiege said:

   You say taxpayers have an obligation to meet the needs of impoverished children. If that’s what the majority of people in America feel, then let’s stop taxing people for it, and instead, let them keep that money so they can give it to charities and other services voluntarily, deciding for themselves where their dollars will do the most good. If you’re right and that’s what most people feel, then the children in legitimate need will be cared for. And the money won’t be allowed to go to Dad’s crack problem, Mom’s bourbon, or lottery tickets.

   I don’t believe in majority rule when it comes to saving helpless children. I don’t trust people to decide on their own to pay for the needs of society’s most helpless. Like I keep saying, a typical conservative mantra is, “Not my problem, and the parents should have been more responsible.” That type of rhetoric ain’t making sure kids get their meds and surgical procedures. That type of talk can’t keep a child safe in a neglectful or abusive home. You’re describing some type of utopia.

   What’s your story?

   I was a social worker for 10 years, and you wouldn’t believe the horrors I’ve seen. I’ve been police for two, and you wouldn’t believe the horrors I’ve seen.

   I think you describe a proposition that is optimistic. However, the typical conservative, as has been demonstrated on this page, believes in the “bootstrap” approach for little freaken kids who don’t have the boots or the knowledge or where to find them. I’m happy to work for a government that at least gives a damn.

6. #206
   On March 19th, 2009 at 7:18 pm, mike.musculus said:

   karnold,
   You’re wasting your time & energy. Under knows full-well he’s lying in his premise of US Citizen miserliness.

   Unless, of course, he doesn’t bother read or think. The data is spilling out all over the place, but he won’t look.

   And, that data also shows that Conservs give more (of their own substance) to charity than Liberals… by orders of magnitude.

   Of course, many studies have proved that Liberals give more — of other people’s substance.

   What I’ve found interesting in all the myriad studies performed on this subject is that as a group even Conservs who are self-proclaimed athiests give more than “religious” Liberals (as a group).

   Never have been able to figure out the “whys” behind that….

7. #207
   On March 19th, 2009 at 7:23 pm, karnold said:

   I don’t believe in majority rule when it comes to saving helpless children.

   Then you believe it should be imposed on the majority by our betters – that is to say, you believe in the rightness of spending other people’s money on this issue, whether or not they agree. Solution: WRITE A CHECK. Spend your own money on it.

   …a typical conservative mantra is…

   You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.

   Time and again, it’s been shown that conservatives give more – lots more – than liberals. Deal with it. Either put that canard back in your hip pocket or stop arguing when conservatives use phrases like “typical liberal” or “typical government employee.”

   That type of talk can’t keep a child safe in a neglectful or abusive home.

   Then fix abuse. Fix neglect. Liberal ideas on parenting and culture created this dystopia, where historically-validated traditional, conservative values did just fine, thank you very much. Instead of throwing money at it and subsidizing it as a permanent subculture, correct it.

   …you wouldn’t believe the horrors I’ve seen…

   The heck I wouldn’t. You wouldn’t believe the horrors I’ve had a hand in helping fix.

   I think you describe a proposition that is optimistic.

   Holding people responsible? Believing that people will live up to, or down to, your expectations every single time? Having parents raise children to be good parents themselves? Yeah, I’ve optimistic about people. These ideas work every time they’re tried. World for millennia.

8. #208
   On March 19th, 2009 at 7:24 pm, mike.musculus said:

   of course, it doesn’t occur to under that he doesn’t hear abt Conservs stepping up because it isnt the acclaim they’re looking for.

   Libs remind me of the Pharocees in the Widow’s Mite… Everything is in the appearance — you see that come to light in the way they treat the law…

   Look at Tiny Timmy, Rangle, any of the others. They pay lipservice to obeying the law, but cheat on it themselves when their works are hidden in the shadows.

9. #210
   On March 19th, 2009 at 7:29 pm, karnold said:

   Sorry. Worked for millennia.

   Mike: yeah, I know. This is an issue I get heated about. It’s just that lefties have gotten so much mileage out of repeating their nonsense, and we’re too… nice… to fight back. If it’s true that 70% of the Federal budget is redistribution of wealth from producers, plus the bureaucracy to support it, then this is just my little part in the Tea Party.

10. #211
    On March 19th, 2009 at 7:42 pm, Dan Lee said:

    It will be very comical to watch the Government try to enforce any such tax.. Satellite Transponders everywhere will suddenly & mysteriously be having massive failures in people’s vehicles..

    & imagine the radar detector style devices that enterprising black market electronics manufacturers will devise to send false data to the government from people’s vehicles? This is going to be a hoot.. A regular Comedy Central episode waiting to happen, if it weren’t for the irony of Tax Payer money going to technology to make them more taxes, that actually doesn’t work..

    Oh, & who will the Transponder Police be? Maybe former community organizers?

11. #212
    On March 19th, 2009 at 7:46 pm, mike.musculus said:

    Under,
    My sister-in-law can tell you the outcome of all the wonderful “help” your kind has foisted on the black community.

    Oh, my. I’m very glad she didn’t hear you say what you wrote in that “government that gives a damn” speel. She’s the physical type, and strong-emotioned (unlike me… I’m the mild mannered one at Family Council…).

    She hates government-toadies (her phrase) — especially eager social workers. She says that the out is almost invariable worse than when a social worker is just “putting in time”.

    She’s told me of experiences that support her claims, too.

    
    Yep, *really* glad she didn’t read that. Carol not only punches (as hard as many men), she keeps *really* long nails. In a fight she scratches, gouges, bites, etc… 140# of Cat with no patience for stupidity.

    (sometime I’ll tell the story of the time she went w/her best friend to a bar to bring that friend’s alcoholic hubby home… )

12. #213
    On March 19th, 2009 at 7:52 pm, undresiege said:

    Then you believe it should be imposed on the majority by our betters – that is to say, you believe in the rightness of spending other people’s money on this issue, whether or not they agree. Solution: WRITE A CHECK. Spend your own money on it.

    I’ve written freaken checks, and lobbied tirelessly for others to do the same. It’s not enough. Moreover, you conservatives like to act like ONLY your earnings are being taxed while liberals somehow don’t pay. Get real.

    Then fix abuse. Fix neglect.

    Did you really just type that? Believe it or not there are cycles of this involved, and it’s not something that just gets “fixed” without recources in the way of counseling, intervention, and guess what, that cost MONEY.

    Liberal ideas on parenting and culture created this dystopia, where historically-validated traditional, conservative values did just fine, thank you very much. Instead of throwing money at it and subsidizing it as a permanent subculture, correct it.

    You don’t think people who vote conservative abuse children, or have them out of wedlock without having the necessary means? Values are values, and good people are responsible, and take care of the kids they have, and that applies to liberals, conservatives, or the likely majority which is neither of the two.

    Holding people responsible? Believing that people will live up to, or down to, your expectations every single time? Having parents raise children to be good parents themselves? Yeah, I’ve optimistic about people. These ideas work every time they’re tried.

    Yeah, that’s the optimal goal. In the mean while, I’m glad we have government aids to help the kids who happen to have irresponsible parents.

    …
    

    a typical conservative mantra is…

    Why don’t you take another look at the thread. The words speak for themselves, and I’ve quoted them plainly. You folks typically don’t mind the kids suffering if it means your taxes have to help prevent it. You quote charitable donations, and act like that has solved the problems, or that it’s even the norm. The posts on this thread demonstrate the mantra.

    stop arguing when conservatives use phrases like “typical liberal” or “typical government employee.”

    Who is arguing about that?

13. #214
    On March 19th, 2009 at 7:53 pm, sbw999 said:

    Big Brother better kiss my ass. There is no way on this earth that I would allow one of their GPS devices to be in my car. Tea Party? There would be GPS Parties. And please, for even suggesting this, the Minn Governor has shown himself to be a scummy RINO. Tax the miles I drive??? When pigs fly.

14. #215
    On March 19th, 2009 at 8:04 pm, undresiege said:

    If charities are such an answer, we really shouldn’t have the problems of abuse and poverty we have in this country in regards to children. Who needs the government when we have charity, right.

    Go down to your local inner cities and rural areas, and start your charity drives to solve the problem of abuse and neglect. Who needs social workers right? Any fool can know that charity is great, but kids in this country would be even worse off without government intervention. I beg of you to prove me wrong and organize charity drives in every ghetto and rural shackville to the point where, folks stop abusing their kids, all the kids have meds/shots/surgeries, all the kids have food and diapers, and all of the kids are generally safe. Please prove me wrong, and make this utopia of mass charity a reality to the point where govt. aid is unnecessary.

    I’ll wait. It the mean time, I’ll do my job, and be thankful that liberals put their votes and tax money behind the rhetoric.
    Save the babies, said Marvin Gaye.

15. #216
    On March 19th, 2009 at 8:17 pm, Socky said:

    Yeah, because the government does such a fantastic job with the foster care system (says Socky the foster dad with oodles of sarcasm). And that idea LBJ had of replacing fathers with checks from the government, that’s just done *wonders* for the underclass, hasn’t it?

16. #217
    On March 19th, 2009 at 8:20 pm, Socky said:

    Conservatives typically want poor unwanted children to be born into crappy, decadent, impoverished, and often abusive households

    I know of no conservative who thinks this way. But the liberal left seems to enjoy subsidizing poverty and promoting unrestrained sexuality to an extent that guarantees more children being born into these conditions. (If they are lucky enough to even be born at all.)

17. #218
    On March 19th, 2009 at 8:45 pm, karnold said:

    If charities are such an answer, we really shouldn’t have the problems of abuse and poverty we have in this country…

    And we didn’t for decades. Before the Depression, the lowest crime rate in New York was in Harlem. Hospitals, caring for the poor, teaching children, was all done better by private citizens and charities before the systemization of Welfare under FDR, the War on Poverty, and the Nannystate.

    Did you really just type that? Believe it or not there are cycles of this involved, and it’s not something that just gets “fixed” without recources in the way of counseling, intervention, and guess what, that cost MONEY.

    First, historically non-existent prior to sixty years ago. Your “cycles” are a modern invention, the result of the breakdown of the family and of rugged individualism. Your “cycles” are recent – the result of children having children, without being raised by their own parents to be adults; the result of the sexualization of popular culture; the result of catastrophic societal upheaval. Mankind survived without your intervention and your counseling for thousands of years, and Western culture for much of that.

    And your intervention and your counseling and your government programs do NOTHING. The places where the greatest focus of these programs has been – Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, New York – is where the epidemic is the worst. Visit the Detroit public schools.

    Big government programs have crowded out charities, and increasing taxation has transferred resources from private charities and remedies as people can afford to give less. The proposal to disallow tax deductions for charitable giving will exacerbate this. Big Government is bound and determined to have a monopoly in this sector.

18. #219
    On March 19th, 2009 at 9:18 pm, undresiege said:

    #210: That’s called purposefully taking a quote out of context. You’re incorrectly implying that I believe conservatives WANT kids born into crappy situations. Wrong. I just believe they don’t seem to care, or want to help once they’re in the horrific existance, but rather blame the parents.

    And that idea LBJ had of replacing fathers with checks from the government, that’s just done *wonders* for the underclass, hasn’t it?

    That old idea of welfare that prospered from the 60s through the Reagan and BushI years was a hot mess. I’m glad Clinton signed a bill to change it. I’m glad certain measures are still in place strictly for the children.

    #211:
    You raise good points, but government aid to children in distress has done some good, and changed lives. The problems are too big for government to be the cure all. Your reliance on charities can still be pursued through grassroots organization, depite a financial crunch. Your side doesn’t even try such a grassroots organizational method, but rather tell the needy to “go find a charity, I give, I’ve helped”. It’s not organized, and the problem is to big to solve without organization.
    In regard to your historical cultural points; we don’t have a time machine, and we have to “dance with the girl we brought”. There’s a reality we have to face. Neither side is all right, or all wrong.

    Enough of this. I got basketball to watch.

    peace out.

19. #220
    On March 19th, 2009 at 9:26 pm, tbear44 said:

    We realize that in the future, cars aren’t going to be powered by fuel, probably,” said Gov. Tim Pawlenty

    Hey, c’mon now! Ever hear of the “Flintstones?”

20. #221
    On March 19th, 2009 at 9:46 pm, Old Country Boy said:

    I didn’t even read the comments above. It is unnecessary. Minnesota citizens should fire the state officials that are spending time and money studying satellite based mileage for terminal stupidity – find the official whose brother-in-law sells the satellite system and fire him/her.

    Is I explained on Hot Air, if you want to maintain revenue stream as non-gasoline powered vehicles displace gas tax revenue, you don’t have to buy an expensive satellite system with a bazillion transponders, that leaves the citizenry believing the government is spying on them. All you do is record the mileage each year when the tag/sticker is renewed, put the mileage in a relational data base, and automatically print out a bill that is part of the tag fee. Simple engineering solution. Cars come with odometers (imagine that). Tag agents issue tags by VIN numbers. Tag agents are already employed. Tag agents have computers connected to a central system. Most computers now come with an Excel-type database. A highschool student from Pine River could do the program.

    There is nothing stupider than a bureaucrat or politician after revenue, except the stupid people that re-elect them. Of course, any state that would elect Ventura, Ellison, and possibly Franken is filled with some pretty stupid people.

    I love Minnesota, great fishing. What I don’t understand is the people I know and meet while there are all pretty smart. You must have lookouts hiding the stupids when I come by.

21. #222
    On March 19th, 2009 at 10:21 pm, secondsight said:

    Pawlenty can kiss his ass goodbye as even a VP candidate. He has now joined teh Arnold as People That Polite People Try Not to Laugh About When They are Present.

    Good luck with that.

22. #224
    On March 20th, 2009 at 8:38 am, mike.musculus said:

    Ahh, I have Under’s number.

    He’s a professional race-baiter. For the clues, read the #s 206, 208, 212. Its especially funny where he says he *didn’t* say what he said 2posts prior. Short attention span combined w/poor reading comp skills, I guess.

    Then, his last post he *generously* shares the blame his mindset alone fosters! How magnanimous! Just like a Lib: all you have is theirs to take, all they do wrong the blame is yours — except for the magnanimous ones, they’ll tell you its everybody’s fault (…and therefore nobody’s…)

    Karnold:
    #211…
    all that can be said is a hushed, awestricken “wow!”
    

    You’d do a public service to generalize that post, add references, and convert it into a flyer. More people’s eyes would open than you could count. I’m serious. This isn’t empty praise.

    Actually, there are 3 or 4 people here, that if I wasn’t a poor broken-down ex-Col. I’d gather in a room, lock the door, and pay handsomely to produce flyers — just like Thomas Paine & others did so long ago. We *really* need that…

23. #225
    On March 20th, 2009 at 9:42 am, stillontheroad said:

    Just buy a GPS Jammer – plug it into your cig lighter. It works wonders.

24. #227
    On March 24th, 2009 at 3:43 pm, allrsn said:

    We already have a mileage tax, it is called a gasoline tax, which was just raised a year ago if they want a larger miliage tax raise it again.

    This is not a mileage tax! THIS IS A TRACKING PLAN! The term ‘mileage tax’ is just a cover!

    I call: R I N O.