Who’s responsible for the New York rampage?
A sick, twisted, and evil man named Jiverly Voong ambushed an immigration center in Binghamton, New York. Recently fired from his job at IBM Shop Vac, Voong murdered 13 people, critically wounded four others, and then committed suicide.
It was a horrible bloodbath. Keep the victims and the families in your thoughts and prayers.
And then, brace for blame.
Because despite having no concrete information yet on what motivated this killer to go on his shooting spree, leftists have already decided: It’s all our fault. Who’s responsible? Click on the links:
Me. FreeRepublic.com RedState.com
“Your 2nd Amendment rights at work. The NRA is answerable for this.”
Look, I’m all for finding root causes.
But someone please explain to me how conservatives who espouse immigration enforcement and assimilation led a nutball of Vietnamese descent who reportedly could barely speak English to slaughter innocent people taking a citizenship test and trying to naturalize the right way?
Put the hangman’s noose down and try to make some sense.
***
Bizarro: Taliban chief wants credit for the massacre.
A Pakistani Taliban militant leader has claimed responsibility for the attack on a U.S. immigration center in New York state in which 13 people were killed, Reuters reported.
“I accept responsibility. They were my men. I gave them orders in reaction to U.S. drone attacks,” Baituallah Mehsud told Reuters by telephone from an undisclosed location on Saturday.
***
Details trickling in about the gunman:
The maniac who shot 13 people dead in a Binghamton immigration center before killing himself was described Friday as an angry loner who loved guns, hated America and talked about assassinating the President.
Kevin Greene, who once worked with 41-year-old mass murderer Jiverly Voong, said a question about a New York Yankees T-shirt he was wearing brought out his dark side.
Greene said, “I asked him if he liked the Yanks,” and “he said, ‘No, I don’t like that team. I don’t like America. America sucks.’”
The thanks we get, eh?
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Categories: Guns
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You had better see a shrink. Haven’t you heard of Da Ones global warming bull crap bill they are going to ram down our throats?
Not a good time to be into anything to do with gasoline, just my opinion. I personally salute you for doing so but the statists do not.
Back on topic the only person to blame is the shooter. At least he offed himself and saved the taxpayers a lengthy court trial and then keeping him in jail for life.
As I said here, too bad someone with a concealed carry permit weren’t in that building. Many lives could have been saved.
Whatever Mr. Wong’s problem was, it had nothing to do with being Vietnamese or that he was a struggling immigrant. Learning English is very difficult for all Asians yet most work past it. I’ll bet Mr. Wong/Voong had a substance abuse problem among a few other issues. What’s with the alias for instance? Who does that?
We shouldn’t feel sorry for this guy. Hardship is part of life but most of us have coping skills. Had he been born a dog, he would have been the obnoxious barking and biting runt of the litter. That is why runts are culled. As with animals, some people are born with faulty wiring. The difference is that human runts are allowed to become adult runts.
Trying to lay the blame is the intellectual refusal to accept there are things in life that cannot be stopped, but faced when they occur. You cannot stop evil from happening. You just prepare for it.
The reaction is the same vain, “we can save the planet,” Tower of Babel arrogance of the Liberal Left. More denial of the fact that man is never in charge.
You make some good points here. One thing I would argue, though, is your likening him to an obnoxious barking animal. Everyone said he was quiet and well behaved. And that seems to be the pattern with a lot of these killers. They are the silent ones who keep to themselves and then one day they just go off. That is why it is so hard to pin them down and identify them. If they were obnoxious barking, biting creeps, they might be forced to get treatment or maybe would land in jail before they got to the mass murder stage. Just a thought.
I can tell you exactly what it is that’s the cause of thie man’s evil actions. It’s called sin and is something all mankind is born with. He had a choice to do good or to do evil. He chose evil.
What? Sighting an anonymous BLOG post suggesting it was IBM Corporate greed? I suppose if I looked, I could find an anonymous post suggesting it was extraterrestrials who had invaded this guy’s mind because he was not wearing an aluminum foil hat.
What? Another anonymous BLOG post suggesting the Second Amendment is at fault? I am sure there is another knucklehead anonymous poster out there who will blame Article One, Section Nine of the Constitution.
OK, the third time is the charm. Another anonymous BLOGGER and their opinion, which we all have, like we all know what. There might be another anonymous BLOGGER who will blame the CFR (Council of Foreign Relations) because it is an acronym, too.
OK, I am not going to check out any more of the provided links. I am sure there are more links on other BLOGS that support the notion that we all wait for more information, and/or say the only responsibility lies with the shooter. No doubt it will also be an anonymous BLOGGER who will say this, but there will not be a link to that statement.
We all know that there are knuckleheads out there. The only way to deal with them is with the truth. When they go so far off the deep end, it is important to rebut them with the facts, and the truth grounded in inescapable undeniable step by step logic, whether they like it or not. Let them slink away in their fog of confusion.
I can’t do that because I do not know. I say everyone is responsible for their actions. Period.
Finally, it is not the thanks we get. There is no loyalty requirement that can be verified. Raise your hand and take an oath. Heck, there are ‘Natural Born’ Americans who cannot be trusted. There is no requirement that that english speaking skills go beyond being able to pass a mere citizenship test as Rep Eleanor Holmes Norton said in a panel with MM some time ago. Are there follow-up interviews? Follow-up mental health and adjustment interveiws? Maybe there ought to be a few changes.
As far as this post goes, my issue is with the the sloppy journalism. Anonymous knuckleheads should not be given this status, we all know they are out there. I suppose, no . . . I expect more.
The shooter, you slobbering cretin.
It is being reported that he was a bitter malcontent. His quiet demeanor hardly masked what was bubbling inside.
I once suggested to a TV write friend of mine that he create a new show called “The Nicest Guy You’ll Ever Meet” about a town of psychopaths. Every time we read about a guy coming home and putting his family to the axe, his neighbors are always quoted as saying he was the nicest guy in the world, the first to help if you had a problem, always playing stick ball with the neighborhood kids, etc…. Those people are scarier than the psychopaths. The signs are always there but they miss them. “I judge people by how they treat me and he was always nice to me.” They probably have sisters who marry guys on death row.
Having cold-called tens of thousands of people from public lists, I can assure you that the “crazies” are out there and there are lots of them.
The posters here admire and respect Michelle. If you don’t like her blog, you are welcome to leave at any time. Why waste your time criticizing her? If this particular thread annoys you, just go.
Look on the bright side. No one has blamed flouridated water yet. But then it’s early.
Two thumbs up on that one.
Yes, and all the more reason to have a weapon for self-defense. Cold-calling? You must take a lot of abuse!
happyscrapper: cold-calling is what you make it. I always respected the fact that I was intruding on people. Most people are not abusive. Just don’t give them a reason to be. “No” means “no”. I did it for five years and it was a good experience.
He’s been posting here for years.
Are you claiming that you don’t cite anonymous commenters here as emblematic of the conservative mindset in general?
Yes, there is a ‘loyalty requirement for US citizenship’. The current oath, per USCIS, states:
“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”
The last four words are optional. The part about ‘true faith and allegiance’ is NOT.
With all due respect–and that’s not much if you meant what you wrote–I don’t believe I’m the one with the communication problem. I did not take “the the word monorites and made a broad brush stroke ASSUMING I meant Only asians”. I made no assumptions. You made a blanket statement about ALL minorities…Asians are covered by that blanket.
NO group of minorities can or should be targeted for the type of ignorant criticism you leveled in your post. If you’re not a racist, you should reword what you wrote to be more clear.
Amen! Five minute from my house there is a bar full of losers blaming the world for their self-constructed problems.
How do we know that this killer was not sent by some Islamic terrorist? We have a Pakistani terrorist leader making an assertion that Voong was one of his. Certainly there are Muslims in Vietnam, a country ravaged by violence and just recovering from the harshness of communism. I am not suggesting that there is a terror connection, but I am also not willing to rule it out.
Most of the time, “race” is sited when the real problem is “culture”. There is no question that all races are of equal value in God’s eyes, because He made them. Cultures, however, are of relative worth, because man made them. The culture of permanent victim stance, low ambition, mistrust, violence, anger, irresponsibility, crime, and welfare mentality, is definitely inferior to the culture of virtue, hard work, vision, humility, honesty, law-abiding, and personal sacrifice.
Shooting back was not an option for the sheeple of Yew York–they could not have stopped a man with an ax or chain saw either. The hell with them. Weaklings and cowards deserved what they get.
Come and get them BroBama and friends.
The left almost invariably hides the fact that towns with open gun laws have less crime and violence. It turns out, not unexpectedly if you think about it, that criminals don’t want to be confronted with force. Much better that the victim is docile and fearful.
I was listening to the latest shooting. Three Pittsburg police offices have been killed by a gun nut with an AK-47. Sounds like a couple officers were wounded and bled out before they could be retrieved.
I think it is time for the police to consider adding M203′s or MK-19′s to their arsenals. 40mm tear gas, smoke and even HE is really effective against a perp armed with an AK.
Jet Jaguar: You are absolutely correct, and I would add that culture of the victim causes the rise of dictatorial government while the culture of personal responsibility causes the rise of a free state. It is no surprise, therefore, that the founders considered the constitution only appropriate for a moral people. It is also no surprise that the second amendment to the Constitution specifically references a free state when it comes to the right to bear arms.
I think many are missing something of significance here. Watch the news very carefully for the next couple of weeks and see if you don’t agree…
The Media Battle for hearts and minds for the abolishment of “Automatic” weapons possession has begun anew. (Don’t forget, possession of automatic/assault weapons has already been strictly restricted for many years.)
We will see dialog meant to stir an emotional response, to enrage the general non-gun toting public, and to start a “Grassroots effort” to abolish gun possession completely (probably for the “public good.”) Look also for the “We Know Better Than You” Congressional types to speak out against private gun ownership.
An armed man is a “citizen,” while an unarmed man is simply a “subject.”
Those who willingly turn their guns into plowshares, will ultimately have to be protected by those who don’t!
Someone once said, “If it is time to bury your guns, then it is time to dig them up”?
Flyoverman: here’s the link to that story.
It is important to note that this was a very troubled young man who was in constant fights with his neighbors and authorities.
Also notable:
What we are witnessing is a growing “irresponsible reporting” problem, not a growing gun problem.
Not making any excuses for the guy in New York as he was obviously deranged and depressed, but the police chief in Binghampton has called the shooter a “coward”. That may be true, but then how about this “Police heard no gunfire after they arrived but waited for about an hour before entering the building to make sure it was safe for officers. They then spent two hours searching the building.” emphasis mine.
Now, does anyone care to defend the premise that we should rely on police officers to protect us from these types of individuals? That additional hour these highly trained and armed police officers took to insure their own safety, left even more time for the perp to have killed even more of the people in that building. Not ragging on our police officers as they have a very difficult and dangerous job, just pointing to the obvious personal slant the police chief chose to use in light of how things unfolded.
Just the sheer number of Liberal whack-a-doos over there at HuffPoo is enough to give any number of phamaceutical companies dealing in anti-psychotic medications hope for a bright and shiny future. My God, but the amount of sheer, vile hatred and sickness that they spout on a daily basis, it really makes a person wonder just what kind of an upbringing they had that would cause such a state. They prove daily that the 60′s did not bring about parents with responsible parenting skills.
But leave it to the Liberals to always look for someone or something to blame. They are constantly seeking the “boogey-man” when something happens.
Personal accountability is as foreign to them as freedom and peace is to the Taliban.
There is only one person who was responsible for the slayings of all those people, and he was apparently a deeply disturbed Vietnamese immigrant who failed to adapt, failed to “melt” and who felt about this country the same way so many anti-Capitalists and Obama supporters do. That’s it. That’s all. More gun laws would not have prevented this incident. It is already illegal for the mentally ill and for criminals to own or posses firearms.
SO all you trolls and other Libs who are constantly out there attempting to lay blame on the Conservatives and anyone else without the hate and anger and sheer insanity that drives all of you to even get out of bed in the morning can just stuff it. In the real world, people are responsible for themselves and their own actions. Not the radio, not the TV, not their mommas, not anything else but the individual.
Contrary to your beliefs…the devil doesn’t make you do it.
This is the second “legal” immigrant mass murder case I have heard about in last week. In Northern CA some Indian nut massacred his family and in laws (6 in all) last sunday.
as far as both the murderers were here “legally”. When are the govt policies who let in these lunatics be held responsible ?
You did make an assumption, please post for me where I said it was asians and speciffically blamed asians?????? Nope sorry you can’t because I didn’t! So yes you have a reading problem!
It also, wasn’t ignorant criticism because I gave you facts of the crime rates for minorities and they out pace whites by large margins!
I love you uneducated unitelligent bleeding hearts that use racism as a sword to avoid facts!
Maybe you should educate yourself first before pointing fingers.
As I said before I don’t approve of gay marriage either but, in your limited world I bet I am a homophobe!
Remember when you point a finger 3 point back!
Apparently, you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must be a liberal. Yikes. Chill out.
Who do I blame?
Mr. Wong.
He’s the one who, regardless of what his ratinale was, premeditatedly closed off an exit, arrived loaded for bear, then methodically murdered people.
Who’s to blame? It’s all Mr. Wong, the man who hated this country.
Liberal bleeding hearts are the one’s that always resort to calling people racist as a sword when they don’t agree or want to look at the facts!
Get a clue PC is one of sources of the very destruction of our society!
You really are a miserable prick. They got what they deserved?
Ok, let’s sort out the facts. The guy worked for IBM some time ago and quit, moving to California. He was laid off from the ShopVac vacuum factory recently, not IBM. Let’s get it right, folks. (Full disclosure: I work for IBM and we recently had a lot of layoffs. FWIW, there are a lot of IBM facilities in that part of New York.) Reporters were picking up hearsay and repeating it as facts. Not so. At first he was supposed to have had a high-powered rifle. It turned out to be two handguns. The car allegedly wasn’t his. Whose was it, and is that person alive still? No word there, so probably no 14th victim. First they said it took police 90 minutes to rescue the wounded receptionist, now its down to about 40 minutes. The guy was said to be in his 20s, until it turns out he was twice that age. Anything sensational like this sends people into a frenzy. He was a twisted, unhappy, sick puppy, and that’s about it.
Every single person in the place who wasn’t wearing a gun.
Well, as a matter of fact, ABC is touting a 20/20 special next week called “If I Only Had a Gun,” and unless John Stossel does it, it’ll be a slam on gun ownership and an attempt to portray gun owners as paranoid nut cases.
More Guns = Less Crime.
You’re kidding…right? Anyone in there not wearing a gun was responsible for the rampage? What kind of logic is that? I wouldn’t bring a gun to work. Most people don’t. Please explain your rather strange statement, if you would.
Floverman,
Can you help me out? We had an exchange about the placement of the missile intercept system, and I cannot find it. Do you recall the BLOG title?
Thanx,
Z
That’s really not a case for being content to wait for the police though.
I understand why they don’t rush in, but when seconds count, the police are minutes away.
Did he have a gun he purchased legally? Did he have a CWP? Did he steal a gun? Guns are not the problem, illegal aliens, welfare gangs on drugs and similar deranged people are.
39 minutes
Michelle,
Just wanted to let you know we had a poster party for our upcoming San Antonio Tea Party today. (BTW, Glenn Beck will be here!) I took your morning headline “Who’s responsible for the New York rampage?”
We added “Gun Control”.
You GO, Girlfriend!
I would give anything to be able to fly down there and join you all at the Alamo! My husband and I were there last winter. San Antonio is an absolutely delightful city and we want to come back. In fact, if my husband wasn’t recovering from surgery and my grandson wasn’t due to enter the world on April 19th, we would probably hop on a plane. Glenn Beck…lucky you!
Every adult is responsible for their own safety and well-being. The police can’t be everywhere and we wouldn’t want them to be even if they could.
I should modify my above statement somewhat: The shooter IS responsible for the illegal act itself. That he was able to be so successful, killing 13 people, is the fault of every adult he encountered who wasn’t able to shoot back.
So you don’t carry a gun to work? I rather think you should, and can’t imagine why you wouldn’t. I mean, criminals ignore gun laws… “gun free zones” are really “helpless victim zones” as was demonstrated here today.
So, according to you, EVERYONE should be carrying a concealed weapon. That just boggles the mind. I mean, that is extreme. And to actually blame someone for their own death because they weren’t carrying a gun? You are one strange dude. Good night.
Yup. Everyone should carry a gun everywhere. Everyone should know CPR, first aid, how to change a tire, how to use a fire extinguisher and have the means available to defend their life.
Say the shooter was legally insane and therefore not responsible for his actions. Who then IS responsible? Nobody? 13 people dead and no blame to place anywhere?
Why WOULDN’T you have a gun? Just because you don’t want to? Because it’s inconvenient? Because it makes you think about unpleasant things that you don’t want to think about?
A gun is a tool like a fire extinguisher or a car jack. Nothing more, nothing less. Do you make sure there is no spare tire in your car because you don’t want to think about having a flat?
The shooter is responsible for causing the situation. The dead, and other adults present, are responsible for not being able to respond effectively to the situation.
Are you an adult responsible for yourself, or a child dependent on others?
^^^ Forgot to add:
If I have pants on, I have a gun on. Why should it be otherwise?
I am responsible for myself, nobody else. Nobody else CAN be responsible for me, I am the only one I KNOW will be present in any emergency with which I’m involved.
When seconds count the cops are only minutes away.
On April 4th, 2009 at 11:23 pm, happyscrapper said:
We should start calling liberals like this bubble boys (or girls). They live in the MSM bubble and can’t ever break out of it. Anyone with a different POV is a strange “dude” or a “freak.”
They even get upset when they see a gun in a movie. In the re-mastered re-release of “E.T.” they removed all of the guns holstered on the FBI agents and replaced them with walkie-talkies so as not to disturb the bubble boys.
I went to a retrospective 1950′s movie (can’t remember which one) and was amazed at the gasps of shock and fear when a country kid was seen hunting with a rifle. Oh, the humanity!
Hitler would’ve loved bubble boys and girls in Germany. Would’ve saved all that effort he expended outlawing and confiscating guns.
I can see where you’re coming from. It’s a bit extreme, but this statement doesn’t wash. My spare tire can’t go off and kill one of my children. I don’t worry about my kids getting into the trunk of my car and killing themselves with the spare tire. That’s the only reason I don’t have a gun. Talk to me if and when I’m attacked, or my house is broken into. I would probably have a gun in every room of the house, but it hasn’t happened, and God willing, it won’t, therefore I haven’t needed one, and the risk (for me at this moment in my life) far outweighs the necessity. However, I always make sure the spare is full of air before I go on any trip.
these “bubble boys and girls” wouldn’t last 2 minutes in my neck of the woods. We live in deer country, and you can hear rifle shots at any given time of the day from people hunting deer. Sometimes you can even hear my bb gun as it takes out a pesky squirrel after it exits my attic after doing unthinkable damage to my house.
Wow. So, if you don’t believe the people that died should be held responsible for their own deaths simply because they were unarmed, you’re somehow a “liberal” (which around here means “evil”)? So much for empathy.
FilmLadd, I feel more than certain that you deserved all the stuff you experienced in junior high (and high school. And college. And in your adult life.).
Guns just don’t go off. They are inanimate objects. Somebody makes them go off.
Would you argue that you shouldn’t have any knives or forks in your kitchen, only spoons? After all, a knife might jump up all on it’s own and cut somebody.
Perhaps you shouldn’t own a car. You might accidentally back over one of your kids someday.
A gun is a tool like any other tool. Mishandled it CAN be dangerous, like many other tools and conveniences. Power drills, carpet knives… heck, even microwave ovens. Stick an egg in one sometime and see what happens. Stand back.
If you allow a firearm to be handled as irresponsibly, yes… someone could be hurt or killed. Solution: Handle them responsibly.
If you are incapable of owning a gun safely: proper handling, proper storage, proper use; then by all means don’t get one. A gun, especially with kids in the house, should either be under your direct physical control or locked in a quick-access safe. If you are incapable of being that responsible by all means do without.
Question: When someone kicks in your door some night and murders your family, will your lack of a firearm have saved your children?
Here’s a hint: NO.
When a disgruntled former employee of your place of employment starts hunting the boss thru the cubicles with a rifle, will your lack of a firearm protect you?
Hint: NO.
When you’re in a 7-11 and some crack head robs the place, then starts shooting witnesses, will being unarmed save you?
Hint: NO.
In my opinion having a family makes it MORE important that you posses a firearm and know how to utilize it in defense of that family. You now have more lives than yous yours depending on you. They depend on you to support them, and they depend on you to protect them.
Without the means as an adult to defend your family you are essentially a household of children, with NO ONE adequately responsible enough… no one WILLING to be responsible enough… to defend the family unit.
There is no single cogent argument to explain why every single mentally competent adult in the US should not be armed at all times. There is no logical reason _I_ shouldn’t be allowed to carry a firearm anywhere and everywhere.
Ever single response boils down to “I just don’t like it”. Too bad.
Empathy didn’t keep any of those people alive, did it? A gun might have. It would have given them a chance, anyway.
I see the point you’re trying to make, but I also see the lack of logic in it. Most people — including those who love guns — don’t carry weapons ALL the time. To imply that the crime of not carrying a gun is one punishable by death is incredibly irresponsible.
It was perfectly clear to everyone here that your “these minorities” remark smeared all minorities, including Asians. Not all minorities shrug off personal responsibility. For example, within the black community too many line up behind Sharpton and Jackson. But not all. Many agree with Cosby that the individual is responsible for improving his lot in life. Sharpton’s followers have earned a certain level of contempt, the entire black race has not. And before you whine “where did I mention blacks”…I already KNOW you didn’t name a specific race, I was simply illustrating a point.
I’m well aware that crime stats show that minorities commit crimes at a higher rate than whites. But unlike you, I know that doesn’t mean all minorities are criminals. If you had said you were referring to just the criminal element within the various minority communities, that would be accurate. If you’re going to make blanket statements about all minorities, then you are a racist.
Being anti-gay marriage doesn’t make someone a homophobe. Being pro-enforcement for immigration laws does not make someone a racist. Being anti-all minorities does make you racist.
I don’t know if you’re sincere in what you write or if you’re just trying to be provocative, but either way it’s not worth conintuing this.
“I don’t like America. America sucks.”
He fits right in with the American Left!
I am an elderly grandmother who would not carry a gun to the grocery store on the odd chance that a crazy drugged-out creep decided to shoot up the place. I can see it now. The shooter comes in. Every single person in the store is carrying a gun. By the time it is all over, 20 people are killed by “friendly fire”. To casually suggest that everyone who doesn’t carry a gun is responsible for their own death is nuts. I don’t want to live that way and I won’t.
I hate to say this, but you sound really paranoid. Also, you are exactly the type of person that the left refers to as right-wing militia loonie. I seriously doubt that the founding fathers intended for all mentally competent citizens of the U.S. to carry concealed weapons. If this country gets so dangerous that we are thinking that way, it is no place to live and raise children. If someone should DARE to approach your front door…for instance, to sell something…would you answer the door with your gun? I would describe your views as extremist.
WELL SAID!
If I recall, years ago, some nut decided to hold up a gun store, out in Oregon or Washington, I believe. After firing 2 shots into the ceiling, there was a shootout…all directed at him. Needless to say, he didn’t make it. I think he was up for the annual Darwin award. By the way, there are many times when citizens protect themselves with weapons. Unfortunately, it is little noticed by the MSM because it doesn’t fit into their political agendas. The news you see or read, remember, is always presented to fit the agenda of the editor, author or producer. I could never be a politician, by the way. I could never see myself always asking first, how can I benefit from this, when it comes to news, bills, or problems in my state/nation. That is the creed of the politician today: me first, party second, country third.
On April 5th, 2009 at 1:58 am, nyk said:
No Nyk, I was simply discussing the interesting phenomenon of the “bubble” that you live in. That bubble also makes you really touchy in a hysterical sort of way.
I never said that the people that died should be held responsible for their deaths because they were unarmed. I simply said that getting the vapors over citizenry armed for self-defense is a result of your being in the “bubble.”
If you want to get greek about it, then we can instead talk about the “cave” you’re stuck in.
It is interesting that, rather than address the concept of the “bubble,” or the fact that Hitler confiscated and banned private weapons, or any other intellectual concept with relevancy, you somehow manage to go to that statement, which was a bit bizarre in a bipolar sort of way.
On April 5th, 2009 at 7:30 am, happyscrapper said:
Case in point:
Doesn’t sound like you have any regret in saying that about him whatsoever.
An emotional attack without foundation. You don’t know anything about the guy except that he advocates an armed private citizenry for self-defense purposes.
I don’t think that what he’s arguing anyway. It would be more interesting if you actually met his argument. It’s well-documented why the founding fathers put in the second amendment, and it has everything to do with defending against tyrannical governments. But let’s not wiggle around. Meet his argument.
Ah yes, for the children… let’s ignore the case of the Amish children a few years ago, members of the most peaceful people on the planet, slaughtered like lambs while waiting for the police to show, all by an evil monster without any regard for human life.
Had someone with contrary views been armed and in that schoolhouse, he could have stopped that slaughter before it ever began. If you can somehow rationally say that is not the case, then make room in your bubble for me.
You obviously don’t live in an area populated with Jehovah’s witnesses
Yes, and as a result you are refusing to come out of your bubble and actually meet the substance of his argument.
I think I have already “met his argument” just fine in other posts, but thank you for speaking for him. Just to clarify…here is what I think…I am completely for the 2nd amendment rights of anyone owning a gun after a background check and safety training. I believe we should be allowed to have concealed weapons. So please don’t accuse me of being some kind of anti-gun liberal. My only problem was with the extremism that seemed to be pretty evident in Tank’s posts. That is ALL I am referring to. Conceal/carry…yes! Everyone carrying a gun just in case some loony decides to shoot up a grocery store? No. I can’t live that way. Is something like that going to happen again? Probably…somewhere at some time. Each situation is different. In the example of those Amish children…if the teacher had had a gun, would it have made a difference? We don’t know, do we? If someone comes in and points a gun at you, how much chance would you have to pull yours out and fire before you were mowed down? Not a chance in he!!. So again, it depends on each individual situation. And again, I can’t live in a permanent state of paranoia where I think someone is going to pull out a gun and shoot me, so I’d better have my gun in my pocket with the safety off, ready to defend myself. Sorry if I think that is extreme. You can demean my opinion and put me down all you want. But that is just how I feel. You have your extreme view of the world, and I have other thoughts. I think my viewpoint is a bit more in tune with most folks and yours is on the fringes. So go ahead and arm yourself and try not to be too hair-triggered. Remember, the girl scouts are coming around with their cookies soon…and they are unarmed.
I am not the kind of person who “wiggles” around an argument. And I didn’t say ANYTHING against a person’s right to bear arms. But his point was made early on in the thread that he blames everyone in the shootings for their own deaths because they didn’t carry a gun. That was extreme and that is what I was referring to. Go back and read what he actually said. When you make an extreme statement like that, you should expect to be called on it. That is what I was doing. I can’t discuss this further, as I have to leave for church now (Palm Sunday), and I think I have covered my feelings on the subject and you have covered yours. Interesting discussion, but a bit frightening too.
In case you missed tank’s post.
A point that is quite relevant to all these comments that I don’t think I have seen come up yet:
NY has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. It is a “shall-issue” state which more or less means getting a concealed carry permit is rather hard and ISN’T always forthcoming or even possible. Latitude is given by the state just how strict the local authorities want to be. I haven’t researched Binghampton’s situation specifically, but I am sure the information is out there.
So, what does this mean? Well, two things that I see are applicable. Firstly, the idea that stricter gun laws are needed seems to be a false conclusion. Secondly, the idea that the folks killed are at fault is just wrong. It’s entirely likely that the victims couldn’t get concealed carry permits even if they wanted to. This is especially true since (according to MM) many victims were not even citizens (yet).
Tanksoldier,
I agree with most of what you say, but I think it’s silly to say someone is irresponsible for not having a gun. I have never had a reason to own one. I’ve always felt that me and my family were protected by God, and I put all my trust into Him. He hasn’t failed me yet (and I’m pretty sure he never will). I also feel that the moment I go out and buy one, just the act of buying one will cause me to have to use it. Call me superstitious. Also, I don’t know that I could live with the thought that I’ve killed someone. That’s not to say I wouldn’t if it meant protecting my family, but bullets don’t usually stop at their intended target. There’s a slight chance that someone innocent will get hit as well (including one of my kids). Not a happy thought for me.
That is exactly what I was trying to convey, but you said it so much better! I believe that God has a plan for everyone, if you walk with Him. So I guess that explains why I feel the way I do. I can’t live in fear, and carrying a gun everywhere is definitely falling into that trap. Thank you for articulating my point so well! (Jesus NEVER fails)
I agree, I don’t carry everywhere I go either. However, there are definitely places and times that I do carry. From now on, anytime I’m attending an English as second language class, I will be carrying.
Happy Palm Sunday, happyscrapper and everybody else!
God bless you all.
Now that all the sharks of the MSM have devoured every last bit of this news story the truth comes out.
Was he Vietnamese as reported earlier? No he was chinese born in Vietnam. Ethnically, that is a BIG difference.
Was his name Voong? No his name was Wong
Was he employed by IBM? No he never worked for IBM.
Did media apologize for their errors in reporting? Of course not!
Tragic, needless suffering…but equally tragic needless reporting.
Well, I too agree with tanksoldier. And most people do live in a bubble of, “it won’t happen to me”. If our cars didn’t come with a spare tire, how many of you would make a point of buying one?
I carry at times. Often I do not due to state legal restrictions. However, if those changed, I would carry all the time as I consider it my civic responsibility. Our forefathers did too.
We don’t plan accidents very well. You walk into an inner city slum liquor store and you’re on-guard. You walk into your local grocery store or neighborhood bank and you’re not. How about your kid’s school? Nothing could ever happen there, right?
Yeah, I can’t blame the unarmed victims, but I sure will blame the people who mandated that they be unarmed victims.
Heather:
Agree.
I think the definition of irony would be a left-wing idiot in a Che shirt denouncing gun violence.
No doubt. The “Che” phenomenon is stupidity at it’s zenith.
You are missing a point here. Nobody is asking you to live in a state of paranoria but yes we DO want paranoia – on the mind of the perpetrator! I’ll bet the nut case who shot up the Amish school house was pretty darn certain that nobody would be shooting back at him. If he had heard that all Amish school teachers were being encouraged to consider taking a training course and participate in a program to arm teachers, maybe it would have given him pause or maybe it wouldn’t have. Not knowing who is armed and who is not armed is almost as good as everybody actually being armed. “An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” — Robert A. Heinlein
That aspect HAS to be considered as an additional benefit beyond the act of actual defense itself. It probably wouldn’t do a lot to stop every lunatic but isn’t stopping just one enough of a reason?
And of course, if someone DOES manage to stop a lunatic the only MSM report you are going to see is about the lunatic’s “untimely death”,(he was a quiet man who never disturbed anyone!) – NEVER a report of the potential number of lives saved in doing so.
Isn’t it a shame that we’ll never know whether or not Saddam was ever going to get his hands on a nuke? Ah shucks!
That is a good point but do you really think that someone who is mentally disturbed enough to do what these guys did would stop and think…”Gee, maybe somebody might have a concealed weapon, so I’d better not try it”. Not sure about that. Of course, two of the guys wore bullet proof vests, so I assume they thought they were going to get shot at by someone. We will never know if anyone actually is detered by the thought that someone might have a gun because how would you know? Maybe someone tempted to rob a place, and is otherwise not crazy, would think twice. But if a person wants to shoot up a place, they will do it. Having said that, if I were in the line of fire, I would be pretty grateful for someone just happening to have a gun that would save my life. As I have said many times in past threads, I support conceal/carry and we have that here in Minnesota, thanks to Jesse Ventura.
Thanks happyscrapper. I wanted to give that the benefit of the doubt that he was just agitating…but I’m afraid he’s serious. Liberals love people like him/her because he/she makes the right look crazy. Have a good Sunday!
Thanks…You too!!
Is this supposed to shock me; that right wingers and conservatives get the blame??? Do we really need to figure out a cause to this? Just a nutball who felt sorry for himself, and decided to murder others. If I was really into finding a “cause” I might look at the victim mindset so beloved and cultivated by the left. Losers used to just off themselves when they felt betrayed by society; now they cowardly take people with them.
Hey, there is a war out there people. It is a war between truth and lies. The democratic party and the media are immoral lying opportunists. Rather than defend ourselves from their lies, just let it go because we know we cannot win the debate. The game is rigged. They control the airwaves, and Washington. Honest discourse is extinct. Let them be the sole voices out there pointing fingers, and enough people of common sense will make up their own minds. Let the whores of the print and TV media try to gain advantage on the blood of others. To me the best response in this case, is none: do not dignify the filthy propaganda of the left; let them debate their low-life selves.
Michelle, we borrowed your headline on this story at our Tea Party poster making party yesterday.
It will be a poster at the San Antonio Tea Party on April 15, 2009
I thought Michelle said the shooter was the one responsible?
I just realized what you meant about the headline. Never mind. I thought I missed a post about Michelle blaming this on gun control.
One industry NOT affected by the economic disater is the Gun industry. Here in Colorado, the demand for guns is so great that many gun types are on backorder and it’s even hard to find ammunition.
Is this a result of Obama being elected? Is it a result of poor economic times? Is it a result of the greater lawless culture? Whatever the reason for the spike in demand, it scares some libs. Kinda scares me too.
happyscrapper said:
…If someone comes in and points a gun at you, how much chance would you have to pull yours out and fire before you were mowed down?
Given the element of surprise, any one individual could have easily been killed by Wong. But if others had been armed, Many innocent lives would have been spared.
For those who still think Saddam had no connections to terrorists outside of Iraq…
And – OF COURSE – it is Glenn Beck’s and the NRA’s fault these shootings are taking place…
Am I under moderation?
Maybe. And as I said before, I am not against having a concealed weapon. I’m just not so extreme that I think EVERYONE should have one and if you don’t, it’s your own fault if you get killed. That’s all.
I think it would be extreme to expect everyone to be armed, and I’d like to think that we live in a peaceful nation where you don’t always have to be looking over your shoulder, but I guess that’s a thing of the past as well.
Those trying to blame Binghampton and Pittsburgh on conservatives and/or right-wingers are the vile ones in this. They are so selfish and self-centered that they will use tragedies like these or the shootings on the Virginia Tech campus for their own advantage political or otherwise.
For shame on them!