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1. #101
   On April 21st, 2009 at 4:21 pm, happyscrapper said:

   I live in PA, a closed-primary state, so I’ll stay in the Repub party. But I will give a long look to anyone running on the Constitution Party ticket.

   This idea concerns me. I am afraid that we will dilute our party and end up assuring our defeat. Do we want to get rid of the likes of Dodd, Schumer, Fwank, and Murtha? Or do we just want to make a point that we won’t vote for RINO’s? That is a choice we have to make. I just want to defeat the liberals who are destroying us!!! Any. way. we. can.

2. #102
   On April 21st, 2009 at 4:25 pm, Ragspierre said:

   Are you saying that maybe we should claim a lot of deductions, then put that extra money away to earn interest for us…and then just not pay at tax time?

   Yes, that is EXACTLY what I suggest…

   BUT…

   not ad hoc, acting only as a lone individual.

   Let this notion get organized. Let it become subscribed to by a “critical mass” of others, prepared to do it together. Let it be supported by a legal team, a support team, and a PR team.

   That is what I suggest.

   It has worked before in American history. Rosa Parkes was not some lone lady on a bus. She was a savvy operator in a highly organized team.

3. #103
   On April 21st, 2009 at 4:50 pm, oneinnyc said:

   On April 21st, 2009 at 4:25 pm, Ragspierre said:
   Are you saying that maybe we should claim a lot of deductions, then put that extra money away to earn interest for us…and then just not pay at tax time?
   Yes, that is EXACTLY what I suggest…

   BUT…

   not ad hoc, acting only as a lone individual.

   Let this notion get organized. Let it become subscribed to by a “critical mass” of others, prepared to do it together. Let it be supported by a legal team, a support team, and a PR team.

   That is what I suggest.

   NOW you are talking! I have been muttering for years if we ALL refuse to pay taxes – they cannot put ALL of us in jail!

4. #104
   On April 21st, 2009 at 4:56 pm, FireBlogger said:

   This is really about ACORN enhancement, period.
   The jobs, let’s not be fooled about this volunteer bull will be directed to those registered on ACORN lists.

   These jobs in turn will be used to reflect a boost in employment figures in time for the 2010 election cycle.

   Obama’s sneaky smart at padding the rolls, dangerously so in my opinion.

5. #105
   On April 21st, 2009 at 5:04 pm, Ragspierre said:

   NOW you are talking! I have been muttering for years if we ALL refuse to pay taxes – they cannot put ALL of us in jail!

   Under current law NONE of us would go to jail.

   There is no intent to evade taxes.

   I have modeled this concept for over a decade and a half.

   I have found no scenario…short of total abandonment of due process…where it does not put enormous pressure on the BEAST, right where it lives.

6. #106
   On April 21st, 2009 at 5:18 pm, granite said:

   On April 21st, 2009 at 5:04 pm, Ragspierre said:

   Should a great number of taxpayers increase their claimed deductions, and thus put the financial hurt on the destroying leeches in D.C., what is to stop the socialists in D.C. from simply passing new tax laws to eliminate the possibility of claiming increased deductions on one’s W-4?

7. #107
   On April 21st, 2009 at 5:21 pm, granite said:

   On April 21st, 2009 at 5:04 pm, Ragspierre said:

   I should point out that I am not disagreeing with you.
   That was an informational, not a contentious, question.

8. #108
   On April 21st, 2009 at 5:24 pm, Ragspierre said:

   Should a great number of taxpayers increase their claimed deductions, and thus put the financial hurt on the destroying leeches in D.C., what is to stop the socialists in D.C. from simply passing new tax laws to eliminate the possibility of claiming increased deductions on one’s W-4?

   Nothing.

   And with each step in that direction, they alienate more and more people, and show…ever more clearly…what and who they are.

   For each thrust, there can be a counter-thrust.

   We would have to plan on it.

   But, remember, a civil disobedience campaign depends on a call to morality, directed to the larger populace. Think of the example of the civil rights movement, or woman’s suffrage.

9. #109
   On April 21st, 2009 at 5:28 pm, Ragspierre said:

   I should point out that I am not disagreeing with you.
   That was an informational, not a contentious, question.

   Please, I APPRECIATE your questions!

   I am asking people to engage with me in thinking about this notion.

   Please, think with me. Challenge me. And be creative yourself. I can’t see everything, and I need others to help conceptualize this.

10. #110
    On April 21st, 2009 at 5:28 pm, madmonkphotog said:

    I find it ironic that a “black” man whose family owned slaves has tried to put himself into history by comparing himself to MLK and recreated a march in Birmingham, only to sign a modern day slavery bill for America’s youth.

    Yes. Ironic indeed.

11. #111
    On April 21st, 2009 at 5:54 pm, kayfromcarroll said:

    All is not yet lost…(or I have raised another member of the revolution)

    My teenage son was just now telling me about the assignment he has for English to create a brochure. His is about Global Warming…. With some trepidation, I inquired, “Is this satire ?” He answered, “As a matter of fact, YES!”

    I love my son very much!

12. #112
    On April 21st, 2009 at 6:12 pm, happyscrapper said:

    On April 21st, 2009 at 4:25 pm, Ragspierre said:
    Are you saying that maybe we should claim a lot of deductions, then put that extra money away to earn interest for us…and then just not pay at tax time?
    Yes, that is EXACTLY what I suggest…

    BUT…

    not ad hoc, acting only as a lone individual.

    It is a very intriguing idea and one I will think about. I would hope, however, that my husband would get on board with it. We have been filing jointly for 40 years. It might be a bit strange for us to change to single now. I would have to ask him what he thinks. He is pretty much a straight-arrow, and I have my doubts as to whether he would buy into it, although he has agree to attend the next protest gathering with me! He is still giving Obama the benefit of the doubt in a few things…but is definitely coming around.

13. #113
    On April 21st, 2009 at 6:19 pm, Ragspierre said:

    He is still giving Obama the benefit of the doubt in a few things…but is definitely coming around.

    Baby steps, Scrappy…

    baby steps.

    I’d appreciate your thoughts. Like I say, challenge me on this. Think with me.

14. #114
    On April 21st, 2009 at 6:20 pm, happyscrapper said:

    How do you pull together enough people willing to do a thing like that without alerting the IRS to the intent? Wouldn’t they shut it down immediately, somehow? For it to work, it would have to involve hundreds of thousands of people. Maybe distribute information at a tea party? I don’t know. However it is done, there is a good chance it would be discovered before it ever got off the ground.

15. #115
    On April 21st, 2009 at 6:31 pm, happyscrapper said:

    Well, I just mentioned the idea to my husband and he pretty much blew a gasket. He said, NO WAY. It is a dangerous thing to do and would be big trouble. He said there would be huge fines because it would be considered tax evasion. We are on a fixed income and that would be disaster. So, while the idea is definitely intriguing, I would have to say we would not participate. Sorry. I know you are trying to come up with a plan to help get the country back. Just not sure this is the way.

16. #116
    On April 21st, 2009 at 6:37 pm, Ragspierre said:

    How do you pull together enough people willing to do a thing like that without alerting the IRS to the intent? Wouldn’t they shut it down immediately, somehow?
    

    I think the ground-work could be done covertly.

    But, in thinking about that, I cannot see why that would be necessary.

    Again, part of the brand of civil disobedience I suggest is that it is overt, public, and assumes the high moral ground.

    Nobody in government can silence me. I am doing what the 1st Amendment was specifically intended to protect.

    For it to work, it would have to involve hundreds of thousands of people.

    Again, I do not think it would require that many. I do believe it would gather supporters very quickly, when people learned that many of their fears are displaced.

    Maybe distribute information at a tea party? I don’t know. However it is done, there is a good chance it would be discovered before it ever got off the ground.

    So? I have to assume it is already “discovered”. They can’t stop it at this stage, and stopping it by some draconian means in the future would tend to strengthen, rather than destroy, the movement.

    Moral right is one of our strengths. I see no need to hide.

17. #117
    On April 21st, 2009 at 6:40 pm, Ragspierre said:

    He said there would be huge fines because it would be considered tax evasion.

    I assure you it would not. There is no intent to evade tax liability. That is required.

    Many thousands of Americans do it now…for less pure reasons…and without any political impact.

18. #118
    On April 21st, 2009 at 7:09 pm, happyscrapper said:

    I assure you it would not. There is no intent to evade tax liability. That is required.

    If you don’t pay your taxes, isn’t that evading them? Or are you suggesting ONLY that people increase their deductions, invest the difference using essentially “government money”, and then paying your taxes using your actual deductions? Is the purpose to tie up the money so the government can’t use it, but to pay your taxes when due? If that is the case, then there should be no problem. I did that once back in the days when I was really broke and knew I would have more money by tax time. I claimed 8 deductions as a single woman! Then I had to pay in a lot of money at tax time when I claimed 1 dependant. Apparently, that is o.k.

19. #119
    On April 21st, 2009 at 7:36 pm, Joy said:

    Rags – Just exactly what would that accomplish? They’d still get their money on tax day.

    The real civil disobedience that would actually accomplish something would be for a large swath of Americans to NOT pay their taxes at all!

    But to just change witholding and then pay on April 15th would accomplish nothing that I can see.

20. #120
    On April 21st, 2009 at 7:41 pm, Ragspierre said:

    If you don’t pay your taxes, isn’t that evading them?

    No, not without more. There has to be an intent to misrepresent your income, take known wrongful deductions or expenses, etc., and an overt act to further that intent.

    This is from Wikipedia, but it will give you a thread to research:

    “Tax evasion usually entails taxpayers deliberately misrepresenting or concealing the true state of their affairs to the tax authorities to reduce their tax liability, and includes, in particular, dishonest tax reporting (such as declaring less income, profits or gains than actually earned; or overstating deductions).”

    Generally, an affirmative act of fraud is connected with evasion. I am also a Member of the Assoc. Of Cert. Fraud Examiners, so I know of what I speak.

21. #121
    On April 21st, 2009 at 8:15 pm, Joy said:

    Rags – The government will continue on credit until April 15th and get their money then.

    I appreciate that you are thinking outside the box… but it will not work. And to keep it clandestine is even worse. They would not understand the reason revenues are dropping. Or worse, think revenues are dropping so much they need to raise taxes even more.

    They MUST understand that it is We the People who are DEMANDING change.

22. #122
    On April 21st, 2009 at 8:16 pm, happyscrapper said:

    Rags…My husband and I are retired and collect SS and money from our investments. It is pretty evident what our tax deductions should be. I don’t think we could get away with suddenly claiming a bunch of dependents!

23. #123
    On April 21st, 2009 at 8:37 pm, Ragspierre said:

    Rags – The government will continue on credit until April 15th and get their money then.

    I don’t suggest we leave it with them. I’m sorry not to have responded to your earlier post. W-2 wage earners would increase their deductions to the max. Come Tax Day, they would simply not file or send a check.

    The self-employed or retired would not file quarterly, and would not file Tax Day.

    I appreciate that you are thinking outside the box… but it will not work.

    I don’t mean to be pressing, but please tell me why?

    And to keep it clandestine is even worse. They would not understand the reason revenues are dropping. Or worse, think revenues are dropping so much they need to raise taxes even more.

    I agree. Please see my posts above.

    I think it cannot be covert. It has to be notorious, open, and in-their-faces. We cannot be allowed to be depicted as “tax cheaters”. We have to be seen as people who are in revolt…

    non-violent, deliberate, and reasoned revolt.

    Beyond that, we have to have a clear goal.

    More on that later.

24. #124
    On April 21st, 2009 at 9:13 pm, Joy said:

    Okay… I must have misread you. You seemed to be saying to simply change witholding and then pay up.

    If people change witholding and don’t pay up, that’s illegal. Which is fine by me. Enough people do it and it might accomplish our designs. I just don’t know how you’re telling Happy it’s not illegal. And someone above spelled it out how I interpreted it and you didn’t correct them as far as I could see.

    If you’re talking actual TAX REVOLT… I agree that it could indeed work.

25. #125
    On April 21st, 2009 at 9:22 pm, Ragspierre said:

    If people change witholding and don’t pay up, that’s illegal. Which is fine by me. Enough people do it and it might accomplish our designs. I just don’t know how you’re telling Happy it’s not illegal.

    It is certainly illegal. It is not criminal.

    Riding the bus as Rosa Parkes did was illegal, as was sitting at the soda fountain illegal for the people who did it during the civil rights movement.

    Civil disobedience is always an act of doing what the government declares illegal. In its pure form, it requires that you face the music, too. It INSISTS that the law deal with you to its fullest extent. That is where the moral lesson is taught to our larger society.

    That’s why it can’t be ad hoc, covert, or spun as “cheating”.

26. #126
    On April 21st, 2009 at 9:29 pm, nlebou said:

    I changed my W4 as soon as they passed the porkulus bill. They can wait for my money. At least I can get 4% on it until I file next year.

27. #127
    On April 21st, 2009 at 9:30 pm, Ragspierre said:

    Joy,

    A few other thoughts…

    While there is safety in numbers, this is not a riskless endeavor. Some of us…especially people like me, who have to answer to a State Bar for our rice bowl…could easily pay for our participation.

    Part of the organization that needs to be put together would include a “Relief Team”, who’s job it would be to mitigate the effects of being picked out of the school. It would also require, as I’ve said, a Legal Team…composed of smarter, more specialized attorneys than me.

    All of that is do-able. We have examples, and we have very bright, creative people who will join and develop new modes and tactics.

28. #128
    On April 21st, 2009 at 9:31 pm, Ragspierre said:

    nlebou said:

    I changed my W4 as soon as they passed the porkulus bill. They can wait for my money. At least I can get 4% on it until I file next year.

    See? You’re a trend-maker…!!!

    STARVE THE BEAST!

29. #129
    On April 21st, 2009 at 9:42 pm, nlebou said:

    See? You’re a trend-maker…!!!

    I don’t know about that. I will pay my taxes next year. All I know is when I saw them pass that piece of crap I had to do something other than write countless letters, emails, faxes and make phone calls.

30. #130
    On April 21st, 2009 at 9:46 pm, Ragspierre said:

    I don’t know about that. I will pay my taxes next year.

    I understand, but you are headed in the right direction.

    Please, just keep an open mind. Give this a place in your thoughts.

31. #131
    On April 21st, 2009 at 10:18 pm, nlebou said:

    Oh, this has been in my thoughts for many years. I just know that actually getting enough people to do it seems impossible. But, I will be watching.

32. #132
    On April 22nd, 2009 at 12:08 am, Ragspierre said:

    I will be watching.

    All I could ask of you.

    I hope you’ll have something to see…

33. #133
    On April 22nd, 2009 at 12:34 am, torabora said:

    If you OWE taxes on april 15 in Commiefornia, you have to figure what your penalty is too….yes, even if you pay in full the entire bill.

    b/tards

34. #134
    On April 22nd, 2009 at 9:18 am, Ragspierre said:

    If you OWE taxes on april 15 in Commiefornia, you have to figure what your penalty is too

    Golly… Kind of like the Stalinist practice of making you pay for your own bullet when they shot you…

35. #135
    On April 22nd, 2009 at 4:50 pm, ckrcsmith said:

    You folks are missing the point about the GIVE/SERVE bill entirely. While I agree it’s an expensive boondoggle, it’s much more than that. It is Hitler Youth and Nazi Brownshirts all rolled up into one. By distracting us and focusing our attention on the trumped up fiscal emergency and massive spending, Obama is sneaking this stuff past us right under our noses, and we’re too wrapped up in the tax and spending aspects to see the direct challenge to our free republic.

36. #136
    On April 22nd, 2009 at 6:56 pm, 4USA said:

    Brown Shirts are much more expensive now than they were in the late 30′s, early 40′s.

37. #137
    On April 23rd, 2009 at 11:58 am, riverzen said:

    This bill is a step right out of Hugo Chavez’ playbook.
    Build up government street forces ready to respond 24/7 to intimidate any political opposition, get out the fraud vote, and help in disbursing Chicago style grease.