Culture of corruption: Murtha’s nephew got $4 million in defense contracts

By Michelle Malkin  •  May 5, 2009 09:23 AM

WaPo has the story:

The headquarters of Murtech, in a low-slung, bland building in a Glen Burnie business park, has its blinds drawn tight and few signs of life. On several days of visits, a handful of cars sit in the parking lot, and no trucks arrive at the 10 loading bays at the back of the building.

Yet last year, Murtech received $4 million in Pentagon work, all of it without competition, for a variety of warehousing and engineering services. With its long corridor of sparsely occupied offices and an unmanned reception area, Murtech’s most striking feature is its owner — Robert C. Murtha Jr., 49. He is the nephew of Rep. John P. Murtha, the Pennsylvania Democrat who has significant sway over the Defense Department’s spending as chairman of the House Appropriations defense subcommittee.

This nepotism-stained pork brought to you by the most ethical Congress ever.

Sponsored by the letter “C” — for Culture of Corruption.

***

More from Ed Morrissey: This screams for an investigation.

Posted in: Corruption, John Murtha

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Trackbacks

  1. Will The Democrats Ever Worry About Corruption? | NEOAVATARA
  2. Congress continues to make my point - Murtha’s nephew and $4 million | Radio Vice Online
  3. John Murtha’s nephew gets government padding for defense contracts | Conservative Political Report
  4. More Insanity from DC… John Murtha Puts Your Taxpayer Stimulus Money to Work « Frugal Café Blog Zone
  5. Liberty Pundit | Murtha’s Nephew Got Millions In No-Competition Defense Contracts
  6. The President who keeps on giving: Obama was wrong about Churchill and the British « Jim Blazsik
  7. Let Freedom Ring » Blog Archive » Murtha’s Corruption Hitting Closer to Home
  8. The Culture of Corruption is still going strong « Urbin Report
  9. Nepotism And Earmarks Alive And Well In Murtha-land « Jane Q. Republican
  10. Culture of Intolerance: Miss California Attacked for Faith, Sexual Photos, Beliefs on Marriage « Peace and Freedom Promises
  11. Nightly Ramble: The “Back to School” edition | BitsBlog
  12. Wow! Those Murthas KNOW how to get money « The Daley Gator
  13. GayPatriot » New Kind of Politics in our Nation’s Capital:“Culture of Corruption” Crosses the Aisle
  14. The Smell Of Bacon Overwhelms The Senses « Around The Sphere

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Comments


  1. #694394
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:26 am, ajmontana said:

    Demacrooks.

  2. #694399
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:28 am, Wade said:

    I am shocked!!!!

  3. #694408
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:39 am, Jaded said:

    When can WE expect charges…10th day of NEVER! Culture of Corruption and yet not a peep from Republicans! SICKENING!

  4. #694411
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:42 am, chapoutier said:

    According to Maryland’s corporate website, Murtech’s corporate status was forfeited for over 2 years from 2002-2004.

    I wonder if they were getting government contracts during this time.

  5. #694412
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:42 am, old trooper said:

    Rope, Tree, Politician.
    Some assembly required.

  6. #694416
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:46 am, Rogue Cheddar said:

    Hanging’s too good for him!

  7. #694418
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:49 am, Rogue Cheddar said:

    I thought Billy Bulger was a grasping thief! He’s got nothing on Murtha.

  8. #694421
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:52 am, walterc said:

    Jaded said:and yet not a peep from Republicans!

    And therein lies the problem. The GOP should be demanding an investigation. Calling for hearings, appointing a special prosecutor.

    That’s why we have more than one party.

    I had the same thought with the White House bullying the Chrysler bond holders. Where is the GOP call for investigations and hearings?

    Come on MConnell and Bohener , do your job or step down.

  9. #694424
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:54 am, no2pcbs1 said:

    murtha is a pork meister, another way of saying he’s a crook, thief, unethical, corrupt, shyster, and those are his good qualities.

  10. #694426
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:55 am, traveler49 said:

    If Murtha can get reelected after what he did to the marines in Haditha, he is essentially untouchable. The democrat congress will support him no matter what treason, theft or corruption he is involved in. Past history shows this to be true.

  11. #694430
    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:58 am, ackvil said:

    And to think the nitwits who voted him in again. My God, what has this country come to?

  12. #694434
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:03 am, bruins90210 said:

    I don’t understand why Dems always get away with this stuff.

  13. #694436
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:04 am, traveler49 said:

    I am imagining a Soprano like scene, where you sneak in past the unmanned reception area and peak into the warehouse. There sit five hairy guys on lawn chairs reading porn and watching sports on a giant flat screen TV. Each one has his hard hat placed neatly beside his lawn chair. What a deal, Can I get in on that?

  14. #694441
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:08 am, William Amos said:

    Jaded said:and yet not a peep from Republicans!
    And therein lies the problem. The GOP should be demanding an investigation. Calling for hearings, appointing a special prosecutor

    This isnt strictly true there has been a Florida Republican congressman who has been pushing for an investigation for over a year. Its Pelosi and Murtha who keep blocking it.

  15. #694442
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:08 am, irving said:

    The GOP should be demanding an investigation. Calling for hearings, appointing a special prosecutor.

    Maybe they have. How would you know? 10,000 angry republicans could be demonstrating outside Murtha’s door every day and it would get no coverage in the media unless he called a press conference about it. Even then, the numbers would be reported as small and the issue would be described as a political disagreement.

  16. #694452
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:20 am, Cosmo said:

    Pennsylvania is the new Illinois.

  17. #694454
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:22 am, IndyRich said:

    The GOP should be demanding an investigation. Calling for hearings, appointing a special prosecutor.

    What?!? And risk being arrested by the Obama administration as a Right Wing Extremist Terrorist?!? You crazy?!?

  18. #694460
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:24 am, iamsaved said:

    I’ve always felt that when Democrats point fingers or call names, it actually applies to themselves. Culture of Corruption; Bush’s failed policies – the Democrats personify those monikers and any others they collectively heap on conservatives.

    When Democrats point fingers, watch the three that are pointed right back at them.

    Murtha has always been a snake in the grass and has slithered through the halls of congress for far too long. They should have kicked him out when he was caught redhanded in the Abscam fiasco.

  19. #694465
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:29 am, Lan Astaslem said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 9:42 am, chapoutier said:
    According to Maryland’s corporate website, Murtech’s corporate status was forfeited for over 2 years from 2002-2004.

    I wonder if they were getting government contracts during this time.

    Something is really not adding up on this one. The WaPo article says that Murtha-jr. started the company in 2004, but Chap found records that indicate it was in existence in 2002 (or before). This website pulls information from public records. Here is the info for Murtech. It shows ~$3.5M in 2006 – 2008 (not $4M as stated in the WaPo article). Aside from the fact that this is more sleeze from the ex-Marine from PA, there are some oddities here.

  20. #694469
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:31 am, pueblo1032 said:

    The citizens of PA had their chance… They dropped the ball on this piece of DOGGIE DOO DOO, and re-elected him… You get what you pay for… QUEEN NANCY better hurry and get the AG involved to make it “MORE DIFFICULT” to investigate CONGRESS…

  21. #694481
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:35 am, chapoutier said:

    Lan Astalem,

    Cool site.

    The only explanation was they were formed in 2000, revoked in 2002 and reinstated in 2004. So maybe they kinda sorta formed in 2004. But in any case, I was curious to see whether they had received any contracts during that period. Appears not. But still pretty sick nepotism. I understand that sometimes no-bids are necessary. But these guys don’t appear to offer anything unique.

  22. #694482
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:36 am, Paul Revere said:

    More proof the PA voters aren’t so smart. Obama, Murtha, Rendell, and Bob Casey? Yep…not so smart. If I didn’t live in NC and know a lot of former PA residents living here I’d be shocked, but they vote the same way down here, too! They (and other transplants) made NC go for Obama, Hagan, and Gov. Perdue. God help us all.

  23. #694487
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:41 am, palologirl said:

    We can thank the people of PA for this scumbag. They can’t say they didn’t have a decent alternative.

  24. #694488
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:41 am, walterc said:

    I understand that the media and Nancy/Harry tend to block these things. but I see republicans speaking on the floor of the house and the senate, where I understand they can say whatever they want, and yet nothing being said. If it were being said, I’m sure Michelle at least would let us know about it.

    I realize that there are a couple of true conservatives as the proverbial cry in the wilderness, but I’m not convinced that the party leadership is doing all they can.

  25. #694495
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:49 am, Lan Astaslem said:

    Junior is also a founder and the Chairman of Ocean Energy Systems, Inc., which has been around for at least three years and has yet to develop a business plan. I guess if you can rake in $4M in no-bid contracts, you don’t need a steenkin’ business plan for your other endeavors.

    Here’s some more info on Murtha Senior and his benevolent brother in Washington from The American Spectator. Several years old, but well worth reminding ourselves how these incestuous relationships work.

  26. #694497
    On May 5th, 2009 at 10:59 am, malkin_fan said:

    Don’t you all think if a Democrat was crooked, Pelosi would ask for his or her resignation immediately?

    Nothing to see here. move on.

  27. #694508
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:20 am, ArizonaNeanderthal said:

    Compared to Murtha’s other actions this is a parking ticket in a sea of treason. I would serve in Heaven, let him rule in Hell.

  28. #694511
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:26 am, nuss said:

    The GOP leadership seems to be gobsmacked and paralyzed by recent events such as landslide victories for democrats in both houses and the White House. Also, the GOPs seem to have been caught with their knickers down as they watch the headlong rush to oblivion by Obama and his henchmen (and henchwomen). Don’t expect the GOP senators and congress critters to launch serious investigations into Murtha’s (and other democrat’s) activities. They know it would make the MSM angry. They would turn against the cheeky GOPs, digging into their garbage cans and otherwise searching high and low for any sign of corruption, the smallest of which would be magnified way out of proportion. Then too, many of the GOPs probably have their own scandels to hide and would not like their Democrat colleagues to turn on them in retribution. Nepotism, little porky things, corruption, scratching each other’s backs, and pay for play are likely to be far more pervasive among our politicos than meets the eye. They have a good thing going for them and they don’t want their shipmates, democrat or GOP, to rock the boat.

  29. #694516
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:30 am, RedDog said:

    No jail, not even a simple investigation or audit. And now we have remoras and hyenas like Little Murtha to contend with. How much more insult do the American people have to bear? Plenty more apparently.

    Democrats – led by Barack Obama – steal middle class savings to the tune of trillions, look to tax business into bankruptcy for the sake of a few billion, spend and print taxpayer money in the trillions, and there are absolutely no negative repercussions for them. Can’t even get a lame joke out of Leno or Letterman. This criminally incompetent government looks more and more like escaped schizophrenic patients from a state mental ward. Who’s policing these people?

  30. #694517
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:32 am, WisCon said:

    The district in Penn that voted this crook in again is a disgrace to this country.

  31. #694519
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:34 am, huhwhat said:

    Oldtrooper. Amen Amen Amen.

  32. #694521
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:36 am, chapoutier said:

    The district in Penn that voted this crook in again is a disgrace to this country.

    Have you ever seen a map of his district. Jeez Louise. It’s like an octopus with tentacles reaching out to every (presumably) stupid voter in that quarter of the state.

  33. #694522
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:37 am, FirstSkirt said:

    Nuss #28: Everything you posted has merit and I agree with you. This is why I have been trying to get a grassroots movement going on term limits. If the current crop of Republicans are “in bed” with the Democrats and/or they are hiding their own corruption, we will never hear a word from them regarding serious scandals by Democrats. What a complete cesspool our Congress and Presidency has become!!

  34. #694524
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:37 am, NJ-Aviator said:

    Lan Astaslem said:

    Junior is also a founder and the Chairman of Ocean Energy Systems, Inc., which has been around for at least three years and has yet to develop a business plan.

    Ocean Energy Systems? Ya think he’s lining himself up for a piece of the windmill pie? And doing so.. WITH NO WINDMILLS WHATSOEVER!

    This is unbelievable. Murtha should spend be investigated for this. Then both Pelosi and Murtha should be hit with obstruction charges as well?

  35. #694527
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:39 am, chapoutier said:

    Ocean Energy Systems? Ya think he’s lining himself up for a piece of the windmill pie? And doing so.. WITH NO WINDMILLS WHATSOEVER!

    Not windmills. Wave energy, at least from the looks of the site.

  36. #694531
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:42 am, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:36 am, chapoutier said:

    Kind of like the district the SCOTUS drew up for West Texas. It stretches from El Paso to San Antonio, a distance of over 500 miles, with just enough of the south side of SA to ensure that a Hispanic Democrat wins the seat – disenfranchising everybody else in an area bigger than a lot of states.

  37. #694540
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:49 am, NJ-Aviator said:

    chapoutier said:

    The district in Penn that voted this crook in again is a disgrace to this country.

    Have you ever seen a map of his district. Jeez Louise. It’s like an octopus with tentacles reaching out to every (presumably) stupid voter in that quarter of the state.

    That’s how congress insures it’s re-election and why Obama wants control of the census. He wants to control redistricting in the next round. But I suspect you’re aware of that already chapoutier.

    You should see my district in NJ. You would think the boundaries would be drawn in such a way that would define an area that tended to have similar interests. Not so. My district contains rolling hills of horse farm, crop farms… and big chunks of urban downtown Trenton more than 30 miles away.

    Ridiculous. But republicans do it too.

  38. #694546
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:52 am, chapoutier said:

    Kind of like the district the SCOTUS drew up for West Texas. It stretches from El Paso to San Antonio, a distance of over 500 miles, with just enough of the south side of SA to ensure that a Hispanic Democrat wins the seat – disenfranchising everybody else in an area bigger than a lot of states.

    Or like the time Delay tried to snake the 15th district up from McAllen (350 miles) to take out a chunk of Travis County and Austin to dilute Democratic voting power there?

  39. #694547
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:53 am, NJ-Aviator said:

    chapoutier said:

    Ocean Energy Systems? Ya think he’s lining himself up for a piece of the windmill pie? And doing so.. WITH NO WINDMILLS WHATSOEVER!

    Not windmills. Wave energy, at least from the looks of the site.

    Thanks. No matter though. I suspect he can adequately fake some research or production in that area just as easily.

  40. #694548
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:53 am, chapoutier said:

    He wants to control redistricting in the next round.

    State legislatures make the district boundaries, don’t they?

  41. #694556
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:55 am, NJ-Aviator said:

    chapoutier said:

    Or like the time Delay tried to snake the 15th district up from McAllen (350 miles) to take out a chunk of Travis County and Austin to dilute Democratic voting power there?

    Yes, equally reprehensible. They’ve turned a necessary element (proportional representation) into a vice.

  42. #694557
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:56 am, DannoJyd said:

    This is what Americans voted for. Hope they are enjoying the chit sandwich they ordered.

  43. #694558
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:56 am, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:37 am, FirstSkirt said:

    Not so much they’re in bed, but that they have enough dirty laundry of their own that they don’t want some reporter retaliating by digging too deep. I don’t know what the solution is. Pretty much everybody that gets to that level has something in his background that he doesn’t want public. Term limits are OK in theory, but that involves throwing out the baby with the bath water – no way to keep the few good ones, and the bad ones will just steal that much faster.

  44. #694560
    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:57 am, NJ-Aviator said:

    chapoutier said:

    He wants to control redistricting in the next round.

    State legislatures make the district boundaries, don’t they?

    Influence would have been a better choice of words on my part. By controlling the results of the census… including more illegals in urban areas for example. He can insure that there are more representatives in the house for those areas.

  45. #694569
    On May 5th, 2009 at 12:02 pm, Flyoverman said:

    He’s beloved in his district. The voters get what they deserve. They do not seem to mind this at all. They love it.

    Disgusting.

  46. #694574
    On May 5th, 2009 at 12:06 pm, prendad said:

    The Golden Creed of Liberalism: “Keep the bucks coming and you can do or say anything you want. Just keep the bucks coming”!

  47. #694578
    On May 5th, 2009 at 12:08 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:52 am, chapoutier said:

    Or like the time Delay tried to snake the 15th district up from McAllen (350 miles) to take out a chunk of Travis County and Austin to dilute Democratic voting power there?

    On May 5th, 2009 at 11:53 am, chapoutier said:

    State legislatures make the district boundaries, don’t they?

    See anything contradictory here? BTW, the answer to your second question (in Texas at least) is yes, unless the Democrats go crying to SCOTUS, in which case the court draws their own. Strange that they never complained about gerrymandering for the 130 or so years that they controlled the lege.
    (Excuse any errors in this, preview isn’t working

  48. #694583
    On May 5th, 2009 at 12:17 pm, chapoutier said:

    Contradictory? No. I understand the influence people in the federal government can have, and Delay had a huge role in the 2003 redistricting of Texas.

    The purpose of my query to NJ Aviator was distinguishing between the census and congressional districting. Related, of course, but not the same. Which is what I had orginally thought NJ was implying.

  49. #694595
    On May 5th, 2009 at 12:26 pm, NJ-Aviator said:

    Chap, you asked the right question.

    As I said, my intention was to point out the influence the census would have on the redistricting that would follow. Though I could have been more clear.

    And although the northeast is tending to lose representatives to the south and west, the carving up that the state legislatures do can be more “creative” with more of population existing in traditionally blue areas of the state. Pieces of these areas may be able to be carved out to bolster the chances of a democratic challenger unseating an incumbent repub.

    The same could be said in reverse. It goes both ways. Given the chance, both parties will carve as they see fit. I don’t know what a fair alternative would be. I just know I don’t like the way it’s done now.

  50. #694606
    On May 5th, 2009 at 12:32 pm, chapoutier said:

    The same could be said in reverse. It goes both ways. Given the chance, both parties will carve as they see fit. I don’t know what a fair alternative would be. I just know I don’t like the way it’s done now.

    At large elections with each voter given a number of votes equal to the number of representatives for the state, to be used and divided among candidates in anyway they see fit. Like a cumulative voting scheme in corporations.

    Just a suggestion.

  51. #694617
    On May 5th, 2009 at 12:41 pm, palani said:

    Michelle, watch that “C” word stuff; you should realize that it’s reserved for the exclusive use of women-hating, gay entertainment/gossip columnists. (Gee, and they told us it was a genetic thing, not a psychological disorder.)

  52. #694651
    On May 5th, 2009 at 1:16 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 12:17 pm, chapoutier said:

    Just checking to make sure it was a lie and not a mistake.

  53. #694661
    On May 5th, 2009 at 1:22 pm, iamsaved said:

    “For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. . .” (2nd Timothy 3:1-5)

    Good description of the most honest and ethical Congress yet.

  54. #694662
    On May 5th, 2009 at 1:22 pm, chapoutier said:

    Just checking to make sure it was a lie and not a mistake.

    What the hell are you talking about? Even NJ acknowleges my question was legit. Tell you what, why don’t you go root around somewhere else and stop following me from thread to thread.

    God, you’re almost as bad as WarEagle with your unhealthy obsession with me. I don’t want no boiled rabbits, ‘kay?

  55. #694697
    On May 5th, 2009 at 1:56 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 1:22 pm, chapoutier said:

    What the hell are you talking about?

    Just your slander at Delay, thought you could figure it out – should have known better. I don’t follow you around, not many libs post on this board. Besides, it’s fun reducing you to a gibbering fool.

  56. #694704
    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:01 pm, chapoutier said:

    Slandering would indicate there was no truth. Do you really want to tell me he was not heavily involved in the Texas redistricting? Or are you saying that such redistricting was not gerrymandering? Because you would be an idiot to believe either. Which leads me to suspect you believe both.

  57. #694705
    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:02 pm, AlohaGuy said:

    Murtech received its contracts primarily from the Army Space and Missile Defense Command in Huntsville, Ala., which has been generous to companies in John Murtha’s district and enjoys a close relationship with the congressman through a mutual interest in breast cancer research. The Army command has won at least $200 million a year in federal funding for the cancer research, of which Rep. Murtha is a stalwart supporter. In a program called Missiles to Mammograms the command has collaborated with a contractor in Murtha’s district, Windber Medical Center, in a multimillion-dollar project to explore using missile-tracking technology to detect breast cancer.

    I have founded my own AlohaGuy to Mammogram research center, in collaboration with the Shave Ice Medical Center, in a multi-million dollar project to detect breast cancer using Shave Ice Technology. Like Murtha’s nephew, I am not at liberty to dicuss this in any detail. “Giving more details could provide important clues to terrorist plotters”

  58. #694712
    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:07 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:01 pm, chapoutier said:

    Slandering would indicate there was no truth. Do you really want to tell me he was not heavily involved in the Texas redistricting? Or are you saying that such redistricting was not gerrymandering? Because you would be an idiot to believe either. Which leads me to suspect you believe both

    Just can’t help those ad homs, can you? Poor substitute for actual knowledge and thought.

  59. #694715
    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:09 pm, hawkeye54 said:

    Jeez Louise. It’s like an octopus with tentacles reaching out to every (presumably) stupid voter in that quarter of the state.

    Ah, the joys of jerrymandering. No logical geographical, county or municipal boundries used as a rule. Twists and turns around and around to make a district safe for the incumbant or turn the current demographics to win it for the side in power.

    Happened in my district here in KaliforniaSSR. Once was moderetely conservative overall, switching here and there from R to D to R, etc. Once the Dems in Sacramento could change it, it was reshaped to make in virtually impossible for anyone other than a Dem to win. We now have one of the Sanchez sisters who may make it her lifetime caeer to represent this district….unless she gets a better offer.

  60. #694719
    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:11 pm, chapoutier said:

    Just can’t help those ad homs, can you? Poor substitute for actual knowledge and thought.

    Don’t avoid the question. Do you dispute that Delay was very involved in the redistricting or that it was gerrymandering?

    Come on. Put some of your vaunted actual knowledge and thought into your response.

  61. #694741
    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:22 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:11 pm, chapoutier said:

    Don’t avoid the question. Do you dispute that Delay was very involved in the redistricting or that it was gerrymandering?

    OK. At no time did I ever claim that it wasn’t gerrymandering. Your inability to comprehend that is your problem. Nor did I at any time deny that Delay was influential in the redistricting. You stated:

    Or like the time Delay tried to snake the 15th district up from McAllen (350 miles) to take out a chunk of Travis County and Austin to dilute Democratic voting power there?

    Unless you can provide me with an authoritative source for the claim that Delay designed that particular district, I stand by my statement that it’s a lie. And given your retrenched position:

    Contradictory? No. I understand the influence people in the federal government can have, and Delay had a huge role in the 2003 redistricting of Texas.

    I think you realized you had overstated your case.

    Now recommence your ad hom attacks and I’ll catch you on another thread so we can play again.

  62. #694755
    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:31 pm, chapoutier said:

    OK. At no time did I ever claim that it wasn’t gerrymandering.

    Nor did I at any time deny that Delay was influential in the redistricting

    Hmmmm….maybe that is WHY I ASKED FOR CLARIFICATION. You claimed I “slandered” Delay yet didn’t tell me how. I was trying to get to the heart of the matter.

    Unless you can provide me with an authoritative source for the claim that Delay designed that particular district, I stand by my statement that it’s a lie.

    Please. He was the face and the leader of that effort. I have no problem attributing the results to him, whether or not he was the one that layed pen to paper and drew it himself. That is a stupid standard for accountability in leadership.

  63. #694779
    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:44 pm, txvet2 said:

    Please. He was the face and the leader of that effort. I have no problem attributing the results to him, whether or not he was the one that layed pen to paper and drew it himself. That is a stupid standard for accountability in leadership.

    I doubt that the members of the lege would be all that pleased with your view, but then you’re just repeating the standard Democrat line. You managed to blame “the Hammer” for everything from swine flu to global warming. (OK, I exaggerate a little). The fact remains that Delay wasn’t a member of the lege at the time, he didn’t get a vote, and to the best of my knowledge had little or nothing to do with drawing that particular district, which was your claim. For that matter, I doubt if any particular member of the lege had that much to do with it – too much coolie/staff labor. And besides, it took them months to nail the Democrats’ feet to the ground long enough to even get a vote. I don’t think Delay was anywhere around most of the time – he had another full-time job.

    In any event, it didn’t make much difference in the end. The court ended up redrawing the districts to suit themselves, which brought about the situation I mentioned originally.

  64. #694788
    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:50 pm, chapoutier said:

    The fact remains that Delay wasn’t a member of the lege at the time, he didn’t get a vote, and to the best of my knowledge had little or nothing to do with drawing that particular district, which was your claim.

    Soros has never been elected to one office or held one position in the democratic party, yet how many times do I hear here how he is the evil genius (or at least evil leader) behind the Democrats?

  65. #694807
    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:04 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 2:50 pm, chapoutier said:

    Soros has never been elected to one office or held one position in the democratic party, yet how many times do I hear here how he is the evil genius (or at least evil leader) behind the Democrats?

    That Soros has bought and paid for the Democratic Party is an opinion that has a strong circumstantial case behind it. But you’ve never seen me claim that he ever wrote any legislation, because it would be a foolish thing to say. Nice strawman, anyway. Just admit you overstated your case, and be done with it. A good lawyer should know when to cut his losses.

    I’d really rather not get started on Soros. I suppose he is a genius, at least at making money from others’ troubles, and there’s no doubt in my mind that he’s evil. But I think the Democrats are no more than pawns to him and that he would cut them loose or destroy them in a second to get what he wants – whatever that might be. You dance with the devil at your own peril.

  66. #694814
    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:09 pm, cicerokid said:

    Where else we gonna put dem thousand-dollar hammers and ten-thousand dollar toilets?

  67. #694818
    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:10 pm, DBNinKY said:

    Soros has never been elected to one office or held one position in the democratic party, yet how many times do I hear here how he is the evil genius (or at least evil leader) behind the Democrats?

    You’re kidding, right? Look at who benefits from his foundation monies; look at what he has proposed and said in speeches, and measure that against the platforms and agendas of many of the leading Democrats in power – from abortion to gov reg, they’re in perfect alignment; look at the company he keeps and the friendships he fosters! And for a topper, read his history and interference w/ British currency.

  68. #694819
    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:13 pm, chapoutier said:

    An analogy is not a strawman. I hardly ever see that term used correctly here.

  69. #694832
    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:24 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:13 pm, chapoutier said:

    An analogy is not a strawman. I hardly ever see that term used correctly here.

    Yeah I got my definition from a liberal college professor. You just can’t trust those people. That’s not on point, though.

  70. #694839
    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:28 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:10 pm, DBNinKY said:

    You need to read back for context.

  71. #694870
    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:45 pm, traveler49 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:13 pm, chapoutier said:
    An analogy is not a strawman. I hardly ever see that term used correctly here.

    An analogy can be used in the making of a straw man argument and can easily be a useful tool of those who make straw man arguments.

  72. #694888
    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:55 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:45 pm, traveler49 said:

    I think that was a quiet bailout move to avoid admitting a mistake. Not worth an argument.

  73. #694890
    On May 5th, 2009 at 3:57 pm, chapoutier said:

    An analogy can be used in the making of a straw man argument and can easily be a useful tool of those who make straw man arguments.

    Perhaps. But they are cerainly not synonymous. And I was not purposely misstating texvet’s argument to an easily attackable form, which is what a strawman is. I was saying that he should believe x because he believes y, and I claim that x and y are the same. There are actually probably a lot of things wrong with that argument, but it is not a straw man.

  74. #694905
    On May 5th, 2009 at 4:10 pm, traveler49 said:

    I hope you don’t mind that I clarified your statement. You say you hardly ever see “that” term used correctly hear. I have not had that experience. I have also seen many analogies misused in the act of straw man arguments. Being that the left’s favorite tool in arguing a point is the straw man, I think it is important to clarify it’s usage (usually against my interests).

  75. #694918
    On May 5th, 2009 at 4:18 pm, chapoutier said:

    traveler,

    Well, here is a classic example between me and emjem in which she tries to tell me that the argument I myself am trying to make is a strawman.

    I did not know one could strawman one’s own argument.

  76. #694924
    On May 5th, 2009 at 4:28 pm, traveler49 said:

    I am not saying that there has never been the misuse of that term on this site. I am saying that as the favorite tool often used by the left, it bodes us (conservatives) well to fully understand how it is used against us and to be able to recognize it when used and call it out for what it is. It was an act of clarification for “my people”. Watch for bad analogies. Watch for straw man arguments. Watch for the bad analogies often used in straw man arguments.

  77. #694945
    On May 5th, 2009 at 4:40 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 4:18 pm, chapoutier said:

    Well, if it’s going to become an issue: From Random House College Dictionary, revised edition (not the best, unfortunately):

    3. a weak or unimportant person, argument, theory, etc.

    In other words, yes, your own argument can be a strawman, and your statement about Soros could be interpreted that way. I suppose there are other meanings in law, but I don’t have a legal dictionary.

  78. #694968
    On May 5th, 2009 at 4:57 pm, traveler49 said:

    txvet2, when I get a chance I will go back and review your discussion. I have to admit that I had only seen the straw man correction by Chap. I do know that they are sometimes very subtle and hard to see. They tend to come fast, furious and often times we can only hang on for a chance to rebut. A straw man argument can also be a very broad definition as you just pointed out.

  79. #694978
    On May 5th, 2009 at 5:11 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 4:57 pm, traveler49 said:

    Hardly worth the effort. It’s an unimportant attempt to divert attention from the original debate, which was a silly little point to begin with.

  80. #694988
    On May 5th, 2009 at 5:30 pm, traveler49 said:

    Let me get it back on track…Murtha should be tarred and feathered and carried in a cart. Seriously, he should. No, really, he should be. I hate the man. I don’t use that word often or lightly either. I really hate the man.

  81. #695003
    On May 5th, 2009 at 5:43 pm, txvet2 said:

    On May 5th, 2009 at 5:30 pm, traveler49 said

    Personally, I think the Marines should officially disown him and he should be publicly stripped of his rank and brass like the good old days. But there’s no accounting for Pennsylvania voters. Given that they write their own rules, he didn’t do anything illegal in slandering a bunch of good Marines, but he should still burn in hell. That’s water over the dam, and in the meantime, Bill Russell is still planning on running against him again next election. I’m sure he’d be happy to accept any campaign contributions.

  82. #695014
    On May 5th, 2009 at 5:55 pm, traveler49 said:

    The last I heard was that Lt. Col. Chessani was still under the threat of prosecution by the Navy. The same Navy that gave Murtha an award recently. It just sticks in your craw.

  83. #695015
    On May 5th, 2009 at 5:57 pm, traveler49 said:

    No, wait, I mean Army. Prosecution by Army, award by Navy.

  84. #695016
    On May 5th, 2009 at 6:00 pm, traveler49 said:

    No, wait, I mean Marines, which are the Navy, so my original stands. I should know this as I was in the Navy myself. Probably a side effect from my swine flu shot I got in boot camp in 1976.

  85. #695017
    On May 5th, 2009 at 6:00 pm, William Amos said:
  86. #695219
    On May 6th, 2009 at 12:36 am, emjem24 said:

    chapoutier said:
    traveler,

    Well, here is a classic example between me and emjem in which she tries to tell me that the argument I myself am trying to make is a strawman.

    I did not know one could strawman one’s own argument.

    Wow, can’t let go that conversation all these months later. It’s interesting that you never responded. Why is that, Chaps?

    It’s also interesting that you don’t let traveler in on the ENTIRE conversation (which I’m sure he can scroll throughout). The conversation was more about your belief that I had somehow misrepresented Obummer’s take on terrorism and its root causes, not on a a straw man per se.

    While we’re on the straw man argument, I think I did reference a statement that you had made regarding prevention. I didn’t know you were making an argument seeing as that you were propping up misrepresentation of Obummer as the ultimate stopgap in fleshing out what the hell he stood for in the first place.

    Anyway, you content yourself thinking that that whole CONVERSATON was in anyway an ilustration in how not to apply a strawman argument. I simply pointed out that your view of social work/monetary aid as prevention was a strawman (meaning weak theory or argument).

    So, yes, you yourself did present a strawman (which happens). Thanks for reminding me. I think you actually need a better example. Try again.

  87. #695230
    On May 6th, 2009 at 1:03 am, emjem24 said:

    Oh, and Chaps, one more thing:

    But if you think that social and economic conditions in Middle East countries does not contribute to terrorism (or lack thereof), you are incredibly wrong.

    I would say that this is a rather unsupported and broad comment to make, wouldn’t you Chaps? How ’bout you Traveler? Chaps seems to think I need to be schooled on strawman arguments so I wanted a finding on this statement that Chaps himself has made (in the same conversation he linked).

    I find it quite curious that one has the confidence to make such a statement without regards to the following:

    1. Religion
    2. Economic aid already given to said region
    3. Who would be counted among the socially and economically disaffected? Could it be those upper middle class and wealthy members of Al Qaeda?
    4. Is there anything to back up this assertion? Any evidence to suggest that this is a norm?
    5. Which countries within the Middle East can you attibute such economic and social factors to increased/decreased terrorism? Rich Gulf States? Saudi Arabia?
    6. Are those who are more socially/economically disaffected more prone to terrorism than those who aren’t?

    If I had made such a broad statement in any of my college or graduate school papers, I would have been critiqued for it as I’m doing now to Chaps. I also find it quite interesting that social and economic factors that Chaps attributes to terrorism in general doesn’t necessarily equate to the elite leadership of Al Qaeda.

    I daresay, Chaps, you did make your own strawman argument. Nicely done.

    /back to regularly scheduled programming

  88. #695231
    On May 6th, 2009 at 1:05 am, BobonStatenIsland said:

    And this surprises anyone? Murtha is so dirty pigs avoid him. Think anything will come of it? Never. All we have to look forward to is the fact that Murtha is fairly old and over weight. Time is on our side.

  89. #695307
    On May 6th, 2009 at 8:53 am, chapoutier said:

    emjem,

    It’s interesting that you never responded. Why is that, Chaps?

    Never responded? To what? That thread was certainly long enough.

    It’s also interesting that you don’t let traveler in on the ENTIRE conversation (which I’m sure he can scroll throughout).

    Because the substance of the argument (which was a good one, looking back on it) was absolutely irrelevant for purposes here. I said you used the term strawman incorrectly. Which you did. I don’t care what Webster’s online, third choice definition says. A strawman, when criticizing an argument, means deliberately distorting an opponent’s position. You said I was setting up a strawman when I claimed Obam thinks that the underlying roots of terrorism is socio-economic conditions. You are more than welcome to disagree with my opinion, but it is not a strawman in any conventional sense. What was a classic case of a strawman, was when you took this:

    We must also engage, however, in the more difficult task of understanding the sources of such madness. The essence of this tragedy, it seems to me, derives from a fundamental absence of empathy on the part of the attackers: an inability to imagine, or connect with, the humanity and suffering of others. Such a failure of empathy, such numbness to the pain of a child or the desperation of a parent, is not innate; nor, history tells us, is it unique to a particular culture, religion, or ethnicity. It may find expression in a particular brand of violence, and may be channeled by particular demagogues or fanatics. Most often, though, it grows out of a climate of poverty and ignorance, helplessness and despair.

    and claimed Obama’s argument was this:

    Ohhhh, does that mean he’ll send a bunch of social workers and Peace Corps volunteers over to the Middle East to hold their hands, give ‘em a hug, and pat their hands and say, “there, there, I’ll wear your burqa if you wish it.”

    See. That is a REAL straw man.

    Anyway, you content yourself thinking that that whole CONVERSATON was in anyway an ilustration in how not to apply a strawman argument.

    I do.

    I simply pointed out that your view of social work/monetary aid as prevention was a strawman (meaning weak theory or argument).

    It isn’t. Unless you use the lazy definition.

    So, yes, you yourself did present a strawman (which happens).

    You still don’t get it.

    Thanks for reminding me. I think you actually need a better example. Try again.

    I thought it was perfect.

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