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Categories: Health care
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Good article under “Canada’s Healthcare Myth” link of the link. A mixed public, private system like in some parts of Europe may be a good option. God knows, we can’t keep doing what we’re doing now. Thanks MM.
As an RN, have been since 1985, and having traveled to many places around the world that have socialized medicine I can assure you that I am dead set against socialized medicine.
However, yes there is always that “but”, I want to caution folks to as we voice our objection to socialized medicine that we at the same time do not misrepresent the current reality of payers in the U.S. The government already drives much of the repayment of health care expenses as it is. No we are not at a single payer system yet. However a large percent of our current health care system is supported as if it is single payer.
Medicare/Medicade drives way more of our health care system then folks want to acknowledge.
In other words stopping socialized medicine is more than how the current debate is being framed. If we do not frame it accurately and fully we are more likely to fail than succeed. I do not want socialized medicine so I am very concerned that we do everything we can to succeed.
We need a FULL discussion of the payment of health care services.
On a different note, most of the nursing unions nation wide support socialized medicine. It is amazing to me how the disconnect between nurses and the nursing union goes unreported. Rank and file working nurses I can assure you do not want socialized medicine. We see what our counterparts in England don’t make. We see what our counterparts in Canada don’t make. We see the working conditions. We do NOT want socialized medicine.
But as is common place union leaders are more interested in politics than representing the interest/views of its members. Socialized medicine is about power folks. Those in politically powerful positions will have one more tool to control the masses. Nursing union leaders are no different in that regard than the UAW.
And by the way, we also need to shut the border down to stop the drain on health care dollars. AND we need to change the law that says if you are born in the U.S., you are a citizen.
It is always a source of dismay for me to read thing like this. These are elected leaders. They do what their supporters want, or they wouldn’t be in positions of power. If there is a disconnect, it is up to the members of the union to elect new leadership.
I hear that, and have been hearing that, or something similar to that, over and over and over and over…again for some years now.
Since the mid 60s, with the advent of Medicare, we in the U.S. have been drifting inexorably closer and closer to socialized medicine.
Yet, it seems as though the media, the elite, academics, politicians, etc. have always told us, and continue to tell us, that what we need is even more government involvement in – that is, spending in and control of – health care.
Could you or someone please specify exactly what we are doing now and why we cannot keep on doing it?
I was stunned when I watched the segment about Kate Spall and her mother’s quest for a special cancer treatment. It was not so much the story itself, because we have all come to expect that kind of bureaucratism leading to catastrophe.
What blew my mind was when Kate spoke of Britain’s National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (N.I.C.E.). This will sound a klaxon in the mind of anyone who has read C.S. Lewis’s science-fiction book That Hideous Strength, in which the lives of people are taken control by an organization known as “the National Institute for Coordinated Experiments” or N.I.C.E. for short.
Even though he is one of my favorite authors, I never thought of Lewis as being particularly prophetic — not like George Orwell or Aldous Huxley — until now.
See this article which references that, and also this frightening article which suggests that Britain’s N.I.C.E. might be an answer to US healthcare woes.
O.M.G.
gra….
This is just a piece of the puzzle or answer to your question. Not the whole answer.
Part of the problem is a disconnect between payer and receiver of services. Third party payment is a bad idea and you can make a very reasonable argument that having insurance helped drive up the cost of health care services. There is also a question about quality or availability of services when you have a third party payer.
Consider going out to eat. What if you didn’t pay for your food at wherever you went out to eat? Lets say I pay for it. I tell the restaurant you can have whatever you want for you “meal” but I’m only going to pay $4.99. The restaurant to stay in business is going to figure out how to give you a meal that suffices as a “meal” for $4.99. Unless of course you want to pay more out of your own pocket.
The word gets out that everyone can eat out as someone else is paying for it, and lo and behold a bazillion folks start to eat out. The restaurant goes to the third party payer and says, “Hey, we need more money…” so the cost of the $4.99 meal starts to go up because people eating out are not paying for their own meals.
So pretty soon the folks who never eat out at a restaurant end up being forced to pay for folks who do.
Part of the problem and therefore the solution is to reconnect consumers of and the paying for health care services and get the third party thing diminished.
Look on the brightside. If we nationalize/socialize healthcare in the US, it may slow down the flow of illegal aliens from Canada.
Because, you know, you could have all the $$ and desire to get what you need, but we have determined that you don’t need that choice anymore. We have decided that Miss Thang gets it.
Why not? I have the care I need, I pay for and it works.
granite–are you a physician?
The Obama administration knows this is the result of what they are proposing. The misery is acceptable, ecasue it allows them to manage the population so it is optimal for the state.
It’s no different than how a farmer culls the herd. Unwanted calves are destroyed. The unproductive old are put down. The productive are cared for to a minimal degree until they become a drag on the State.
Obama, a man who to me has never shown any genuine compassion, is perfectly suited to implement this cold-blooded system.
“but we have determined that you don’t need that choice anymore.”
You have struck on a huge problem in health care funding/payments. What people thing they want in terms of testing, diagnostics, etc., read $$$$, they in fact many times to not need.
Part of the impact of “Hey, I’m not paying for it…” feel of the current payment system is that if I want an MRI for a bruised heel, I demand to have an MRI and I need it. And if you as the insurance company of doctor don’t think so, my malpractice attorney will be contacting you shortly.
Part of the problem with our current system is us. Not in total mind you. But health care consumers are part of the problem.
Malpractice attorneys part of the problem.
Much of that fixed by reconnecting the consumer of with the payer of services. If I choose to not have an MRI because it really isn’t necessary and I don’t want to pay for an unnecessary test, then its on MY shoulders. Not my doctor’s. No the insurance company’s. No one to file a law suit against you see….
I can’t wait for my weekly supply of government mandated “Soylent Green” vitamins! Good for what ails you! Guaranteed to cure Lumbago, Gout, and those nasty spells of Myasthenia Gravis! Eat all you want! We’ll make more!
Soylent green is people…..!
Gotta get to work but here is my list that will help fix health care payment system not in any particular order.
1. Shut down the border.
2. Change citizenship requirements so its not just being born in America.
3. Tort reform.
4. Reconnect the recipient of health care services with the payer for those services.
5. Medicare/medicaid reform.
6. Did I mention kill all the lawyers?
7. Open up medical schools.
8. Investigate unions for professionals who deliver health care services. (Nursing, etc., unions)
9. Portable funding options.
10. Lastly, kill even more lawyers…..
As a physcian well into my 25th year of practice, I would like to add a few points that those without firsthand, day to day experience may not know. We are told that “the cost of medical care is rising”, and that phrase is used to justify more controls. I assume this works best for those who want to use scare tactics to advance their own agenda. From my own perspective, my income has been significantly slashed for the last several years by third party payers. Paperwork is all-consuming. At the same time, insurance premiums have gone up across the board. It simply amounts to this: the amount billed by the doctor for any service is irrelevant. The third party payers are in control of payment & they will pay what & when it suits them. It’s not unusual to have to re-submit claims multiple times because insurance companies say they “got lost”, or “we never received them.” It can take months, perhaps even a year to get paid. And then it’s only a fraction of the value of the service. Of course, being responsible for your action continues to last many years, so there is no corresponding reduction in liabilty for the few cents on the dollar received. The sense of entitlement, especially among Medicare patients, can be unbelievable. Entitlement has obviated personal responsibilty, so people do what they want, & assume that just because they pay an insurance premium, they will be fixed up as “someone else” will pay their bill. Many ills & problems can be avoided if people looked out for themselves proactively. National health care will just make all this worse, especially as so many people do not understand “the government” is us. Those same people will get the shock of their lives when they discover they pay more & get less then they do now. Today’s lousy system will look pretty good, but by then, there’s no way out.
Professor Terguson: Good answer. Good answer. I like the way you think. I’m gonna be watching you.
Exactly what is wrong with the current system? I keep hearing about people not being covered, yet that’s what we have Medicaid for. I haven’t heard any horror stories about people denied medical care because of a lack of insurance. Actually, I do hear stories about hospitals absorbing millions in costs for illegals because they can’t deny them.
I suspect the proponents of universal health care either stand to benefit from it either financially or through increased power, or they are just ignorant of the cost and quality that come along with it.
dr. kudafa,
Two of the fast food franchises located near my home are owned by the same gentleman. I know him. I first met him when I was working in a hospital on an inpatient unit. He was an internal medicine doctor. About 6 years ago now he cashed out, used the money he had on hand to buy two franchises and has not looked back. Does not even use the “doctor” title any more. He is happier than he’s ever been and despite the hours he puts in owning two fast food franchises, it is less than when working as an internal medicine doctor.
Isn’t that sad…..
Indeedily-doodily, kudafa. Mr spaceycakes works in the medical field, so I have a bit of perspective on this…
What I can’t understand is, do people really think a person will do several years of medical school training/schooling just so that they can stand & do a 8-hour surgery for which they might get $800.00–which must be divided up between staff & hospital as well??
Health care is not a right.
But because so many operate under the delusion that it is, liberalism will keep on killing.
More than any other disease…
“yet that’s what we have Medicaid for.”
In principle maybe but not in reality. In Arizona the bar for qualifying is so low if you have a part time job you are then the working “poor” and do not qualify.
There is work that needs to be done, changes need to be made. But socialized medicine is not the answer.
Secondly in regards to medicaid, the payments health care providers receive are often so low that your health care business will go out of business. In California the repayment to physicians who are willing to be PCP’s for the California system are being paid less per patient than it cost to have an office to provide services NOT counting the doctor’s salary. To see a California medicaid patient the doctor’s office loses money AND the doctor does not get paid. But patients can still sue, demand services, etc.
Any wonder that the medicaid system in California does not have enough doctors willing to be PCP’s?
Do we really want our doctors to be so stupid they can’t figure out they are losing money?
I really gotta go…..
“the bar for qualifying is so low”
Sorry, should have said the bar for disqualifying….
Spaceycakes:
Aren’t you lucky. Want a cookie?
Suppose you have diabetes. You make 25k a year as a self-employed plumber and your wife runs her own cleaning service, and makes 25k a year. Your kid has asthma. Your rent a townhouse for $650 a month. You and your wife have used cars that are paid for.
Guess how much monthly meds for preventative asthma and your diabetes cost out of pocket a month. Guess how much private insurance will run your family with these types of ailments. Guess what happens to your bank account if insurance companies decide not to cover you because a family member comes down with additional issues that are “pre-existing”. Guess what happens when the son screws his leg up on his skateboard and has to get surgery on his PCL and repair a broken kneecap?
This is life. It’s not even a horror story as remotely terrible as what I could have described. This doesn’t even take into account other utilities, car repairs, and whatever else life offers you. You work hard and earn an honest living. You have a “right” to optimum health.(Yawn, I know that right isn’t enumerated in the constitution).
My government provides a police force, a military, education for my kids, and MAIL. My government can make sure that people aren’t suffering unnecessarily simply because they are financially incapable of paying for basic body maintenance for a condition that you often can’t even prevent for happening.
Do you know what emergency rooms take care of? That’s right, exigent circumstances. Emergencies.
You bet your a$$, I want some elements of socialized medicine in this country. Luckily, I have great benefits. Unluckily, many have none. I have zero problem paying higher taxes to make sure American’s quality of health improve. I have zero problem borrowing ideas from other countries in Europe if they are doing things better and more efficient than we are.
Yes, right on. The whole network of people who make their living, too good of a living, off the hard work of others suckifies everything it touches. Tort reform is a great start and we could get it if we would stop electing attorneys to represent us. John Edwards comes to mind. We need to send smart economists to Congress and the White House, not ethically challenged in the boys club lawyers. People who know how to spend money to make money, not steal money types.
You haven’t been looking, or you’re purposefully ignoring them. For starters google “child dies tooth infection lack of insurance for surgery”. I cried like a little girl when I saw his last photos and read his story. Then again, I guess I’m just a wussy liberal. Kid should have been tougher, I guess.
So in underseige’s world, health care is a right.
the healthcare issue can be summed up in a simple q&a.
lets suppose you are a 65 year old man, overweight, high blood pressure, and have a heart attack. the doctor says to you, here are your options. 1, lose weight and exercise by walking regularly and we will give you zestril to lower your blood pressure. that will cost about 200 dollars per year. 2, we can put in stints in your clogged arteries, and give you zestril which will cost about 20,000 dollars of hospital and rehab. 3 we can crack your chest and remove the clogged arteries and put you back together. that will cost about 200,000 dollars. what do you want, and how will you pay for it? that used to be the question. today the doctor says, oh and by the way the taxpayer will be paying for this, so which option do you want. that is the problem. if someone else is paying for it, the sky is the limit. if you had to use your entire life savings to prolong your life at age 65, would you? in 1965, the average life expectancy for a man in the u.s. was 64. women were 68. then along came medicare and medicaid in 1966 and the population started drastically aging. this puts crushing pressure on government budgets to pay for this, on pensions, on retirement savings like social security, etc.
i am not saying living longer is a bad thing, but examine your choice if you had to pay, or have your children pay for your retirement care. i was in new york this week, and some people were complaining about how the government was going after the assets that this woman’s mother had transfered to her so she could claim medicaid for long term care. fraud, you betcha. but this is the problem when you create a system where someone else pays.
How about food, housing, clothes, transportation, education, entertainment then undersiege?
The Government ran Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Social inSecurity, and the Post Office into the ground, yet some idiots STILL think they can run health care!?!?
What are they smoking!?!?
The snark bores me. The issue is deadly serious. Health is the main concern, followed by food and housing. As an RN, I bet you have outstanding benefits. Good for you. For the others, yeah hardy har, har, big joke, not.
Just wait until they ration health care by race, gender, ethnicity, etc.. I guarantee it will happen under a Canadian-style single payer system.
My best friend is a paramedic, I asked him how many of his calls are legitimate, he told me about 10%. He said 90% are BS calls by people who are going to the ER, mostly looking for narcotics and are paid for by the state.
under….
I work for and pay for my benefits. You can do the same. The idea that I have to pay for YOUR benefits cause health care is a right is socialism. It does not work very well.
If the best you can do to justify socialism is to cry about your life is difficult, not much of an argument there sir. Time to man up and get a real job buddy.
I added the emphasis because if is the operative word in that sentence. The socialized health care in Europe and Canada is not more efficient and is not working.
“Health is the main concern, followed by food and housing.”
So those things are “rights” too?
Government run grocery stores next?
I visited China several times. I met my now wife’s father while he was in the hospital there.
The hospital, People Liberation Army Hospital 217, was something out of the dark ages.
A couple of years ago I spent a long weekend in the hospital. My wife came by with everything she thougth I would need. She was stunned when I showed her all the things I got.
She now refers to American hospitals as “Hotels.”
My wife’s father passed away a few months later. There wasn’t much anyone could have done.
Now her uncle, the man who gave her away at our wedding in China, he suffered a heart attack and went to the hospital. They gave him some aspirin and sent him home. 4 hours later he keeled over and died.
He would have lived for sure if this had happened here.
My wife’s family didn’t say a word to her about this until after we were legally married in the U.S. They didn’t want to ruin the happiest day for her.
No way in H.E. Double hockey sticks will I tolerate substandard care for my family or myself because of some democrats feel good laws.
I suspect that a lot of other people are thinking the same thing. Woe the govt. hack who says “No care for you! One year!”
And by the way under, the HMO I am part of can not deny coverage due to pre-existing conditions. It is against the law to do so.
I’m a cop. You know how many calls I go out on where to dopes got into a domestic dispute, but don’t want to press charges or some crackhead is making too much of a racket? Wanna do away with the police force and privatize law enforcement?
uder…
If you are a cop at least make some sense. As a cop you don’t have any insurance? Or you do and your complaints are from some imaginary pretend person?
The cops I know not only have great benefits, their unions are part of the problem in general.
Again, lucky you for your HMO. The pre-existing illness issue comes about when a private un-attached citizen is looking to purchase private insurance for herself and her family. It’s real. It’s dang real. Insurance companies first and foremost want to evade and save bucks. Like I said before, as an RN, you have great benefits, but there tens of millions not as lucky as you.
“tens of millions not as lucky as you.”
That is not true. Pretend made up numbers.
How many homeless are there uder….?
The existence of an issue does not then justify socialism. That is a dodge and bait and switch tactic of the left.
All we have to do is define a problem. The problem’s existence is justification for a government program.
Flawed logic. How do you even fight crime uder…?
I DO have great benefits. You’re losing something here. There is a whole wide country out there beside you and me.
There’s one very important thing to this whole discussion. We don’t have enough doctors in this country to do what Obama wants to do.
There is a serious shortage! And if we nationalize with what we have now, you’re talking big time waiting lines, delays, etc.
If you think lack of insurance is simply and issue for the homeless, I’m done conversing with you, because you’re hopelessly dishonest or just dense.
undresiege, If you going out on BS calls becomes an exponential weight on the system, then yes. I’m into personal responsibility. If you responding to domestic dispute calls becomes too much of a burden on me, then those in bad relationships, yeah, I want them to be responsible for it, not me.
I followed MMs link and found an intersting article where SOME European countries are doing an excellant job by mixing a socialized medicine and private medicine approach. If you check out the article, you’ll get the jist that these countries are doing it to a much greater extent than we are now. Canada is ranked 26th, so no I don’t want to mimic their model.
“If you think lack of insurance is simply and issue for the homeless, I’m done conversing with you, because you’re hopelessly dishonest or just dense.”
Do you have some kind of reading handicap uder….?
You quote bogus outrageous over inflated numbers as if they are facts. The same m.o. the left uses for all sorts of things including homeless numbers. The fairly recent “statistic” regarding how many people are losing their jobs from the Democratic leadership as an example.
The best way to get folks the resources they need to have the health benefits they want is to get them all working at jobs that pay enough that they can do what they afford health care.
Socialism is the WORSE thing we can do.
Despite you apparent sense of some grand injustice to the uninsured.
And for those folks who think Britain’s National Healthcare System is Great…just look at these headlines:
– Reach for the pliers! Three million do their own dentistry because they can’t get an NHS appointment
– On the Critical List: How the NHS is being killed by politics and bureaucracy
– 1 million a year are victims of NHS blunders or accidents
– How the monolithic NHS sells us short: Not only are we languishing in mid-table mediocrity for overall performance, but in areas that really matter – cancer survival rates, waiting times for treatment, access to new drugs and hospital-acquired infections – we are near the bottom of the list of 31 countries. Given that our annual health spending has doubled since 2002 to almost £100billion, these figures are shaming.
– Billions squandered as the NHS fails to deliver
– NHS sickness rates 50% higher than the private sector – and taxpayers pick up the £3bn bill
– NHS blunders left cannabis-crazed schizophrenic free to stab policeman to death
Oh, and it goes on and on and on…just go to the http://www.dailymail.co.uk and do a search on NHS problems.
So, if you think the US will benefit from nationalized healthcare system, please take not from those countries like the UK who have had this kind of system in for decades. It’s a disaster.
I have to disagree, my paramedic friend swears they all get the same amount of care when they are taken to the ER. I had a professor who got into it with a really liberal, wanted to be a lawyer, student about healthcare and he said, if people are not getting good healthcare than they do not know how to work the system.
My buddy is very sensitive about caring for people, as a cop, undesiege, I can’t believe that my paramedic friend has more “field” experience with people than you seem to. He has some colorfull stories about having to waste time with homeless people. You must be very gullible. Believe everything you are told? I can’t imagine you are a very good investigator, stay on the beat, you won’t make it as a detective.
Private insurance is available. I bought my own for my children and myself for several years. Yes it was expensive, so yes we had to deny ourselves cable and cell phones and other non necessities, because in my mind, health insurance is a necessity, but not a right. I will take care of my family.
So, when it got to be too expensive, I hunted for a job that had benefits. It meant a pay cut, but once again, it was what I needed to do to take care of my family. Insurance is available. You just have to work for it….and that’s the rub.
Oh really, did you not bring up the homeless in post :
I never brought up the homeless before, so what in the hell was your point in bringing up the homeless unless you were trying to make the BS claim that my “tens of millions” remark referred to homeless? Hmmm?
Oh really, you mean like when I typed “tens of millions”. Feel free to find you own numbers.okay.
Thank you for a classy, intelligent post. Good for you that you were able to find a job with benefits. They don’t grow on trees. In the mean while a person in a similar situation could have to wait even longer than you. In the mean while, the serious medical conditions for themselves or a loved one are slowly deteriorating. Of course one can always go to the ER. Of course the ER will only treat emergencies. Mean while many can die slowly, yet unnecessarily because they can’t afford life changing medications and treatment.
I still admire your approach and commitment to your values. I’m sure a little luck went your way along the way also.
Gotta go. Later.
#54 link didn’t work. Feel free to google “number of uninsured Americans”.
I didn’t google anything about the homeless, but direct all inquries about the homeless to JSM4, who brought it up for reasons known only to JSM4.
Kay, Gotta run.
Thought about sending the link to my ultra-liberal cousin but she would just say it was some right-wing, shock jock, Rush Limbaugh scare stuff. She claims she is going to save $200 a month when we get Universal Health Care.
Mockingbyrd, That was a classy, intelligent post, sans sarcasm. Thank you for being a responsible upstanding individual who knows how to work hard and has their priorities straight. I salute you.
Regrettably, this is a truism and expectation in the mindset of most in my community and I suspect most of Queens as well. Soc. Med has always been only the FIRST STEP in the minds of way too many people, and too many on our side severely underestimate this view. PLEASE don’t let single issues, as legit as they may be, sideline the main battle!!!
James Greenidge
Queens, New York
So why, exactly, is this the federal government’s problem? The Constitution says the government is to promote the general welfare, not guarantee it.
If you read the story then you must have seen this part:
“He died despite two brain surgeries and a lengthy hospital stay, the Washington Post reported. ”
Link
Then how did this ungrateful illegal alien manage to get taken care of for 2 years?
Again, do you actually know of anyone who has been denied necessary health care?
I was at the Post Office today to pick up a package. There were about 25 people in line, and 1, I repeat 1, clerk working. Mid-morning, not lunch time or anything. And of course, as we waited and waited, employees would wander up front from the back, take a look at us, and walk right back to wherever they came from.
As I stood there, all I could think was “These are the same type of people who will shortly be handling health care.”
I’ve never understood why someone else, whether it’s an employer, gov’t or whatever, is responsible for my health care, or why I’m responsible for anyone other than myself and my family. I understand the benefits package came about from the wage controls during WWII, but why they still exist is beyond me.
I was without health insurance from the time I got out of the military to Jan of this year, a span of 8 years. I could have gotten health insurance, but chose not too. However, I never went around asking for someone else to buy me a policy.
Not everyone who lacks health insurance is poor.
Good for you. Do you want a biscuit?
Or would you actually rather I feel the same way you do?
Yeah. That’s what I thought.
Regarding your good posts:
I agree, agree, agree,…& agree!
As a doc, I have a little understanding of our system.
BTW, did I mention that I agree with your posts?
Keep on keeping on.
Good post.
We might let that individual know that he is probably free to pay extra tax to the government(s) any time he feels like it.
If Undresiege is a cop, then he must be a union rep. In the law enforcement community only the union people are into this BS. Admit it undresiege, your a union rep. It has to be a union thing, they are so in lockstep it is crazy. C’mon Undresiege, tell us about the union.
Canada’s health care is becoming more and more ridiculous. I wrote a column about it not too long ago.
http://www.wernerpatels.ca/2009/03/canadian-healthcare-people-are.html
I pretty much already knew the implications of universal healthcare (or single payer healthcare) before I went to the site and watched ALL the videos. I’m living this reality right now. I’ll explain that in a second.
It is heartbreaking especially to hear the story of the young woman who had to WAIT to get a pap smear that could save her life. It is now common place to get this screening when you’re a young woman. It doesn’t take much time or effort or even money but it seems that the NHS thinks that is should be applicable at a certain age, under certain conditions because it’s not COST EFFECTIVE. This is the reason why Katie now has TERMINAL CANCER because the stupid NHS wouldn’t freaking let her have a screening at 19 even 20. This is simply ridiculous.
Then there is the quote by the healtcare broker who basically said that the system is failing the public. When you’re desperate, you go to him. Canadian citizens don’t get any intrinsic value at all out of universal healthcare in Canada. IT DOESN’T WORK.
The moral of the story of UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE and SINGLE PAYER HEALTHCARE is: if you’re elderly, need a surgery, or need a medication/procedure when you have terminal cancer, your needs intrinsically outbalance the needs of the system/community. Your life is essentially no longer worth saving or no longer has value.
We already have a very inefficient, government run healthcare system right now and it’s called Tricare. As a military spouse, I’ve seen first hand it’s lack of efficiency and effectiveness. In some parts of the country (such as Hampton Roads, VA) there is healthcare/prescription rationing. Certain experimental procedures aren’t covered under Tricare. It is often hard to work through the maze of bureucratic bull
sh!t to find an answer.
Too often, Tricare and its doctors take the easy way out. Instead of treating the disease, they treat the side effects. They are completely useless at mental health. Even their dental unit (United Concordia) is flawed to say the least. If you need a certain filling (like the apoxy types) it’s not covered. It’s a bureacratic nightmare to make sure that the medical procedures/scans/screenings that they contract out are paid for and that your credit/reputation is not left ruined in the process (especially if they lose your address when you’ve moved to a new duty location).
I’ve lived this. I bitterly laugh every time I hear how somebody got taken for a loop by their health insurance provider when they’re told they don’t cover a certain procedure, their hospital bill won’t be covered, or they have to go into bankruptcy to pay for healthcare. I think it’s more of a problem of people not willing to do the research and make sure they know what they’re buying before they pay the premiums every month (which my husband and I pay for Tricare, a supposedly “free” benefit for the military). Americans simply don’t want to be bothered about paying for their healthcare, or doing the legwork in educating themselves about their choices when the Nanny Welfare State can do so much “better.”
Universal Healthcare doesn’t offer any sort of care and is a lie. Tricare is its evil stepchild.
Wanting to provide health care coverage for all of the people of this once great republic is a lofty and noble ideal.
I only have one question, and hopefully someone who posts here can answer it for me: In exactly which article and section of the Constitution of the United States of America is the enumerated power that authorizes the federal government to provide health insurance for the people of this nation?
I have searched high and low and can’t seem to find it.
Living in California, I know how devastating the unions, especially government ones are. This state every year has wildfires, since the environmentalists won’t let the state do controlled burns or clear brush, it costs the taxpayers a hell of alot of money. The gov’t unions are some of the worst, especially fireman’s unions. they keep this whole situation going because they make so much money. Now Santa Barbra is up in flames, it is sick. Government unions suck up taxpayer money, hello Undresiege, what are you working for?
Where’s AARP on this issue? They should be literally screaming bloody murder for their members against rationed health care. They usually take the position of: give to the old and screw the young. It must be quite a conflict for them if they were to advocate against a government entitlement program.
That was the emergency stage. Like when it’s time to save the child from grave injury or death. It didn’t have to reach that point if he could have afforded to get it treated earlier. You missed the point of the article. His story is just one of many. If you don’t know of many stories, spend some time on the net and look, if you care to.
I don’t know enough about this dude’s story, or how severe the brain damage was. Do you think an uninsured person with diabetes or lupus can just sit in the ER indefinitely? Or do you think they’ll treat an emergency flair up, kindly give some samples, and wish them luck?
There’s the rub. How do you define necessary? Necessary usually means life or death(grave injury). That dead child needed necessary dental work much eearlier in the infection stage. Maybe you think it was necessary when all hell broke loose, and they had to conduct brain surgery. I guess we differ.
I do know this. From age infant-9, my dad worked from job to job in retail, and my mom was a stay at home mom. We simply couldn’t afford health insurance. I had hellacius asthma. Multiple attacks rose to the level of emergency where, yes I was treated in the ER and given samples(back then, provental, prednizone and theodore). We made too much money to qualify for health insurance and not enough to pay for a private carrier that could provide the top asthma meds. I rarely if ever had a healthy day. Around 2nd grade, mom left dad for numerous reasons, but a long time coming. We spent two years on welfare at which time I was provided every day maintenance inhalers. Mom was able to get much needed mental health counseling and depression medication previously unaffordable. She eventually, made it through a state college on loans, grants, scholarships, and part-time work. The state school offered excellant medical benefits, and my health thrived as I got off of the dangerous predinzone and got even better every day maintenance medication. Mom became a school teacher, and my health improved to the point where I was able to excell in sports and make it through college.
I hate to wonder what my life would be like if I didn’t eventually receive proper asthma medication. I also know that I’m lucky that it was asthma and not something more serious and devastating like what countless others are going through.
I think it’s necessary for all children and adults to have the same access to medications as Obama and his girls, me the cop, or JSM4 the RN with the HMO. Nobody should be denied the opportunity to live with decency and health because they aren’t rich enough or poor enough. I’m sure you have a different definition of what is necessary.
Wow, what a sad story….wow, could not imagine.
You aren’t looking hard enough. Go to Appendix S (Socialism)
Here is the Table of Contents:
Auto Industry Control
Banking Control
Census Control
Diet Control
Energy Control
Finanacial Control
Gun Control
Healthcare Control
Immigration Control
Judicial Decision Control
Knowledge Control
Longevity Control (adjunct to healthcare)
Mental Management (FCC)
Opposition Control (aka Homeland Security Force)
Parental Rights Control
Quality of Feminine Life (Abortion)
Recovery of Unjust Wealth
Supression of Incorrect Thought
Technology Control
Universal Outcome Management
Vounteerism for the betterment of the State
Wealth Erradication
Youth Control
Remember this; the drug might be expensive here, but the government cannot tell us that we cannot have it.
Hey undresiege, I notice you are calling out everyone else, when are you going to call me out? I’m waiting
I think some of you aren’t reading what undreseige has written.
Sure, I understand, he’s a liberal and you don’t like him. I get it (literaly I get it, that is I get the same treatment from you guys WRT to some of my views).
In any case, I think it bears repeating that he is advocating some kind of healthy mix between social and private healthcare. He hasn’t even spelled out what he thinks that is.
The idea that it’s either Ayn Rand or Marx is a gross oversimplification of the issue. It is also wholly partisan.
Thank you.
Thanks for the tip Flyoverman.
My copy was dated 1787, so it didn’t have an “appendix S”.
Appendix S was written in 1917 and came to America shortly thereafter. It has taken a few years to fully grasp what each section really meant as it was originally written in Russian.
You can thank Saul Alinsky for providing the proper translation, training, motivation, and guidance.
No, we get that undreseige is totally getting his viewpoint from being emotional, and we get that that is a bad way to judge the effectiveness on an issue. We see that healthcare run by the government is bad, there are too many examples of it being a bad system. I believe really the only times it is paraded as a successful try is a country like Denmark (look it up for yourself as to why). We understand that after so many other countries have tried it, and it not having worked for the people, then it is stupid to keep trying this solution. However we see that it works for the people in power, and we are not the type of people to be ruled. I think that is what the resistance is coming from.
I think this whole thread and the entire healthcare discussion is overlooking two of the greatest problems we have today that make the current system so some degree unpopular.
Those are a lack of doctors that lowers competition and raises cost and the Elephant in the Room, lack of TORT reform, which drives up costs throughout the system.
The latter, like the impact of high energy costs on the economy, the libs have never fgured out.
We need more doctors and fewer lawyers. Not you though Chap…..
First, I’m not being critical of your mother here.
I find it funny that you chose to blame the system rather than your parents’ choice for your mother to be a stay at home mom when the extra income was definitely necessary or the choice for your mother not to get an education (with all the state school health benefits) while your parents were together.
For the record, I have been without insurance a couple of times due to unemployment and I have children. Both my regular physician and my dentist were willing to work out payment arrangements. I would prefer to eat rice and beans than let my child suffer with a painful tooth problem. Just given the few facts available, I seriously wonder if child neglect played a role.
i have yet to see a single person in america get turned down for medical care. yes some deadbeat hypochondriacs have to go to multiple facilities emergency rooms because they have worn out their welcome at many hospitals, but they always get cared for. it’s only the insurance payer and the taxpayer who gets screwed. to me, it’s time for people to care for themselves. buy insurance, and not that big screen tv. go back to mexico or cuba where they have socialized medicine if you are sick. get a job with health benefits and keep it.
Why don’t all these bleeding heart liberals get together and fund charities to buy insurance for the “poor” rather than trying to make all of us pay for their programs? Like Habitat for Humanity (housing for the poor) or other worthy programs. Instead, they want ALL of us to pay for their causes. The end result of socialized medicine is we all get 2nd rate health care (except the pols of course), rather than the MAJORITY of people getting 1st rate health care today. Typical liberal thinking that “at least it’s fair, even if worse”.
Oh and by the way, the brilliant economist, Milton Friedman once said, “It’s just obvious you can’t have free immigration and a welfare state,”. AS JS stated above, stop the illegal aliens and their anchor babies from consuming health care and other gov’t services, then we can discuss using those savings ($B’s) for some kind of social net for the uninsured.
The answer is simple. Come to Canada and see for yourselves what the system is like. Wait for long hours in the emergency rooms. Plead with uncaring nurses. Talk to anyone who has had experience dealing with Canadian hospitals. Socialised medicine is not what it’s cracked up to be, and rest assured, those who clamour for it get care elsewhere.
Thank you for reading my posts. We don’t share the same politics on a lot of things but I always appreciate your objective honesty and nuanced take on things. Thank you.
Absolutely correct. I don’t have all the answers. I previously stated that I don’t want to mimic the purity of the Canadian model. I think some type of hybrid approach may be effective. Smarter people than me need to figure what has and hasn’t worked here and elsewhere and determine what works best for everyone. All I’ve tried to do on this thread is answer the questions that a couple posters asked me i.e. What’s wrong with system we have, or what exactly needs fixin? My obvious answers to both:
A lot.
OK, but I do have a problem with 50% of the country who DON’T pay any income taxes that want everything PAID FOR by people like ME. And I’m not talking just about healthcare. They’re already getting tax “refunds” (i.e., welfare checks). Isn’t that enough?
Ain’t gonna happen. Start working, start paying taxes, THEN we can talk.
You can’t tax the “rich” to pay for everything…
undresiege:
I often purposely search out your posts. I do the same with LGM and Chap and several others.
More or less everyone else’s position can be summarized by just reading what MM had to say.
Like what? I can’t recall a time we disagreed.
Likewise and thank you.
Everyone? That sure includes a lot of people…
No offense taken. My mother was isolated from family and we couldn’t afford child care. Once I entered grade school, she worked part-time, but again battled mental health issues. Divorce, welfare, and some helpful angels served as a wakeup call. I’m proud of her for flippin the switch eventually. Now she’s an absolute goddess on earth. I couldn’t be prouder.
I agree but children shouldn’t have to pay with their health, or their life due to the lack of skills or getupandgo of their parents. It’s not just children obviously. I should have had better medical treatment despite my parents’ issues, and much more importantly, the poor child from DC should have had his infection taken care of(even with our tax dollars) even though mom didn’t stay on top of it, yet, before it was at the flippin brain surgery stage. Many adults are either not rich or poor enough to have quality healthcare that is “necessary” yet not quite to the point of grave, exigent emergency. There are some people really suffering out there unnecessarily. Something has to be done.
I gotta run now. I think my I’ve stated my position and I don’t want to get repetitive. This is politics, so I understand the lack of common ground on some things.
There are a couple posters on this thread I can invision wasting a lot of time trading barbs. This issue is too serious for me to get into all of that anymore, so I’ll leave now and maybe check back later tonight or tomorrow.
later.
chapoutier’s health plan:
Leeches and Robitussin are free.
Ether and linements cost fifty cents.
Won’t work for me, chap.
Robitussin doesn’t contain codeine. I gots to have my opiates.
Chap,
Maggots are great and free…..
Chap:
What about the herb?
You’re a cop??!!? Anyone who thinks that the government can run health care any better than they run Social Security, Medicare, the SEC, FCC, the evacuation of New Orleans or the average driver’s license office is clinically insane and shouldn’t be allowed anywhere within a mile of a gun.
Except that’s not what he’s saying.
Open casket? Wow…
No, what she’s saying is that it’s “for the children”, the same scurrilous lie libs use every time they want to extend the welfare state. Let me point out that “the children” are already thoroughly covered by not only Medicaid, but also the SCHIP program – which now extends to “children” as old as 30 in the most recently passed incarnation. I have no idea beyond what she wrote here about her past, and could not care less. Her circumstances were not of my doing, and her health care is not my responsibility. Nor should my health care be her responsibility. My perspective is somewhat different. When I was one of 5 kids of a factory worker, my family couldn’t afford much of what most families consider necessities of life – like TV. But we always had health care when needed, even if we didn’t have any medical insurance; we were all born in the hospital – not home in bed; if I needed emergency care, I went to our family doctor – not to anybody’s ER. There was no hospital in our little town, and the “ER” was our doctor’s front door. But that was before Medicare. Now, you can’t even find a doctor who will take new patients, especially if they’re on Medicare, Medicaid, or TRICARE. The reason is the government. And when they finish nationalizing health care, it will be rationed for everyone except guess who – the bureaucrats and those wealthy enough to afford to keep their own doctors on retainer. There is no doubt that this administration intends to ration health care as a solution to curbing costs to the government. Those of us over 65 have particular reason to fear this, because it is not their intention to allow anyone to receive unapproved care, no matter their financial circumstances, except, of course for themselves.
Government will decide what care you receive and how treatments will be given, just like Europe. A 65 year old won’t get aggressive treatment as much as a 35 year old. They look at it as “cost effective”. The same will go for the chronically ill. In government reasoning, it’s better to offer minumum care to them, than to take money from those that can be “cured”. I have one CP patient who had hip surgery back in January. Under medicaid/medicare, physical therapy wasn’t started until last week. The child may have permanent leg damage. Fortunately the child was able to see a neurosurgeon to have the hip surgery immediately, back in January. Under government healthcare, he would still be waiting, with probably another 3 months to go on the list. In Sweden, the “great healthcare country”, there are now waiting lists to go on waiting lists. It has become a debacle. India is happy about this, though. Many people leave Europe (esp. England) and get surgery done right away in India. Canadiens come across our borders for the same reason. And, you cannot pay a doctor out of your own money. It’s against the law. For those of you who would love to have the government pay for your “healthcare”, hope you never get really sick, like cancer. It could be 6-8 months in order to see an oncologist. By then, it could be too late. It happens that way in Europe. I have patients I know that I would be very fearful for, in a government healthcare plan. Having lawyers and politicians decide their care, means they go downhill. They may be forced, in desperation, to buy one of those “snake oil, cure all” products in magazines and tv; if that isn’t banned too. Of course, India will still welcome those patients…and their money. Our ERs here, promise to see every patient within 30 minutes. Don’t expect that to last. Be prepared to see it as an Irish pub on St. Patrick’s Day, with people spilling out into the streets, waiting all day…for a cold. It will be a constant triage nightmare.
txvet2:
From undreseige’s first post:
emphasis mine.
She’s not advocating a purely government solution. Are you advocating a completely Objectivist solution?