Stop Al Gore and the eco-taxers

By Michelle Malkin  •  May 13, 2009 10:16 AM

Al Gore wants to create his own green “1984.” CEI hurls a sledgehammer at the eco-tax-and-spenders with a new ad campaign. Watch and spread the word:

NTU has a petition: Tell Congress to Oppose $2 Trillion Climate Tax!

See what others have said

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Comments


  1. #201
    On May 14th, 2009 at 12:50 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 11:00 am, zeroangel said:

    What other ideas do you think shouldn’t be taken seriously and yet not laughed at?

    Homeopathic remedies, Buddhism, and thousands of other ideas.

    Overall, you’re seeing everything as much too black and white. You definitely lack the ability to accurately see in grey scale.

    There is nothing over-reaching about radiometric dating. It is extremely solid science.

    Never stated otherwise.

    Now, there are far too many over reaching scientists in this world. That’s who you should laugh at.

    On May 14th, 2009 at 12:28 pm, zeroangel said:

    That is true, however, there is a constant source of heat, the sun. So GGs might retain any heat generated at any given moment only temporarily, but the net effect is cumulative.

    Is it cumulative? You stated that as FACT yet you didn’t have the confidence to answer my question about desert versus humid areas.

    If adding GG had a cumulative effect, then humid areas should have higher high temps than desert areas. Right?

    I think I’m starting to understand the low threshold you use for declaring, “fact.”

  2. #202
    On May 14th, 2009 at 12:50 pm, Danceswithdachshunds said:

    zeroangel said:
    … there is a constant source of heat, the sun….

    But the sun’s output is not constant and neither is our distance from the sun.

  3. #203
    On May 14th, 2009 at 12:55 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    Homeopathic remedies.

    Laughed at. Do you know what they call “alternative medicine” when they find out it works?

    Medicine.

    You definitely lack the ability to accurately see in grey scale.

    Gray is one thing. Gray is 4.3 billion as opposed to 4.54 billion. 6000 is not gray, it’s stupid, plain and simple.

    You stated that as FACT yet you didn’t have the confidence to answer my question about desert versus humid areas.

    To be honest, I didn’t really read or pay that much attention to your question earlier. My wife and I were just turning on a movie at the time. I figured you could find the answer on your own on wiki. I am sorry to have ignored it and pretended I didn’t.

  4. #204
    On May 14th, 2009 at 12:56 pm, zeroangel said:

    Danceswithdachshunds:

    But the sun’s output is not constant and neither is our distance from the sun.

    I never said it was and I am a GW skeptic.

  5. #205
    On May 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 12:55 pm, zeroangel said:

    Do you know what they call “alternative medicine” when they find out it works?

    Who is “they” and what is your definition of “works?”

  6. #206
    On May 14th, 2009 at 2:03 pm, corkie said:

    Let me state that I don’t think I oppose a single FDA policy or position (including yesterday’s Cheerios issue).

    Now, let me state, many drugs worked long before it was approved as medicine.

    Gray is 4.3 billion as opposed to 4.54 billion.

    Yes. That’s one heluva greyscale you got there.

    To be honest, I didn’t really read or pay that much attention to your question earlier.

    Doesn’t matter. However, I’d assume you’d ‘try to defend your definitive GG effects are cumulative’ statement in an attempt to restore your credibility to declare what is and isn’t fact – as you seem to enjoy doing quite aggressively.

  7. #207
    On May 14th, 2009 at 2:25 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    Who is “they” and what is your definition of “works?”

    Doctors and those in the field. “Works” means it can be shown to be more effective than a placebo.

    Now, let me state, many drugs worked long before it was approved as medicine.

    Fortunately, in modern times, we have developed actual ways of discerning these things quite easily using test groups and statistical analysis.

    Yes. That’s one heluva greyscale you got there.

    Oh stop playing games. Either you think YECs are patently insane or you don’t. There’s no “gray” area when it comes to the idea. It’s stupid. If you even give it the slightest bit of credence than you are horribly ignorant on the matter.

    I’d assume you’d ‘try to defend your definitive GG effects are cumulative’

    I just point at Venus. My credibility isn’t an issue. No doubt there are probably some YECs (and people that think Venus is hotter than Mercury for some other reasons than GG) on this forum that question my credibility. They are purposely deluding themselves and I do feel pity for them.

  8. #208
    On May 14th, 2009 at 2:40 pm, lgm said:

    corkie said (#180):

    Prove it.

    No.

    The point of a conversation is not to convince yourself, it’s to convince other people.

    You completely misapplied detailed balance. There is no ‘balance’ in an open energy system.

    Relations between physical quantities can be determined by “gedanken” (thought) experiments. There must be a relationship between emission and absorption because the two would have to be in balance in a closed system. The Einstein relations hold no matter where the atoms are.

    We’re not trying to predict the climate 1000 years from now.

    Tell us, lgm. What are we trying to predict?

    The temperature 10 to 100 years from now.

    SHoward said (#183):

    Here’s the problem:

    If the temperatures are going down even as CO2 concentration is going up, and ice formation is increasing, as well as ocean temperatures decreasing, How is the net energy retained by the earth causing global warming?

    Check the wikipedia article or more direct main stream scientific sources. Average temperatures are going up, on average (dumb sentence, but there are places on earth — not many — where average temperatures are expected to go down because of glbal warming changes in air circulation patterns.).

    zeroangel said (#184):

    Why should the US bother with measures that could possibly cripple it’s economy while any progress that is made will merely be undermined by China.

    Finally a question that isn’t on the entrance exam for the flat Earth society! There are no easy answers to this but a couple of partial answers. One is that the US still produces much more greenhouse gas than China. Second is that once Europe and the US are on board, it may be possible to pressure China the way it has been pressured on labor practices.

    zeroangel said (#192):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_After_Tomorrow

    Honestly, LGM, that movie must have pissed you off as well. It might as well have just spat in the face of any hard working scientist.

    The science in movies is always wrong, but movies (Chain Reaction etc.) can be fun anyway. This was a bad movie because the acting and writing were bad, and because it gave people the wrong idea about global warming.

  9. #209
    On May 14th, 2009 at 2:44 pm, chapoutier said:

    This was a bad movie because the acting and writing were bad, and because it gave people the wrong idea about global warming.

    But it was a good movie because Emmy Rossum was in it.

  10. #210
    On May 14th, 2009 at 2:51 pm, zeroangel said:

    LGM:

    Fair enough. Personally, I am more interested in nuclear power and the possibility of sci-fi-ish atmospheric processors as a solution. Dependence on fossil fuels will end one way or another. After all, there is a finite amount in the ground.

  11. #211
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:02 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 2:25 pm, zeroangel said:

    “Works” means it can be shown to be more effective than a placebo.

    Gee, you forgot to mention statistical significance and confidence intervals.

    Statistically speaking, it’s quite possible for “medicines” to be approved despite a complete lack of efficacy. Think about it. If FDA approves 100 drugs each of which showed efficacy with a p-value=1%, then you should EXPECT one to be INEFFECTIVE.

    Tell me again about facts.

    Fortunately, in modern times, we have developed actual ways of discerning these things quite easily using test groups and statistical analysis.

    “Quite easily?”

    Your credibility is now gone. Research the cost of your average combination of preclinical, Phase I, II, and III trails powered correctly to provide statistically significant evidence of efficacy AND statistically significant evidence of safety. Ain’t nothin’ easy about those $$$$, my friend.

    I just point at Venus.

    That’s it? That’s all you got? You make a definitive statement as if it’s a fact and you back it up by just pointing at Venus??? OK, I now understand your threshold for determining facts.

    What else do you consider a fact despite not having a preponderance of evidence?

    I think it’s time for you to explain the mechanism that causes gravitational force.

  12. #212
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:08 pm, ITookTheRedPill said:

    Dependence on fossil fuels will end one way or another. After all, there is a finite amount in the ground.

    In Black Gold Stranglehold, Jerome Corsi and Craig Smith expose the fraudulent science that has made America so vulnerable: the belief that oil is a fossil fuel and that it is a finite resource.

    This book reveals the conclusions reached by Dr. Thomas Gold, a professor at Cornell University, in his seminal book The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels (Copernicus Books, 1998) and accepted by many in the scientific community that oil is not a product of fossils and prehistoric forests but rather the bio-product of a continuing biochemical reaction below the earth’s surface that is brought to attainable depths by the centrifugal forces of the earth’s rotation.

  13. #213
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:13 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Revival_in_the_late_20th_Century

    Claims of homeopathy’s efficacy (beyond the placebo effect) are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical evidence.[9][10][11][12]

    “Quite easily?”

    Are we going to argue over semantics? Look, next time you get sick, by all means go to a “homeopathic doctor.” I am not going, and neither is any of my family members. It’s stupid.

    That’s it? That’s all you got?

    ? Yes, that’s all I got. An entire planet that happens to have the thickest atmosphere in the solar system and also happens to have a higher surface temperature than the inner most planet. Shaky ground, indeed.

    I think it’s time for you to explain the mechanism that causes gravitational force.

    LOL. You first! Let us know what you find out.

  14. #214
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm, zeroangel said:

    ITookTheRedPill:

    If that is true (and I’m skeptical) I guess it’s a good thing.

    I still think we’d been better off if we went nuclear. It’s a far better source of energy.

  15. #215
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:25 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 2:40 pm, lgm said:

    The point of a conversation is not to convince yourself, it’s to convince other people.

    Trust me, lgm. EVERYONE reading this is convinced that I know more about this topic than you.

    Relations between physical quantities can be determined by “gedanken” (thought) experiments. There must be a relationship between emission and absorption because the two would have to be in balance in a closed system. The Einstein relations hold no matter where the atoms are.

    Stop torturing yourself, lgm. You misapplied detailed balance to an open system.

    Think about it this way. The principles of subtraction still “hold” even when multiplication is required. Admit that you incorrectly subtracted instead of multiplying.

    The temperature 10 to 100 years from now.

    10 years? So, why aren’t the 1999 AGW models now accurately predicting the earth’s current climate?

    Average temperatures are going up, on average (dumb sentence, but there are places on earth — not many — where average temperatures are expected to go down because of glbal warming changes in air circulation patterns.).

    No, they aren’t – according to BOTH satellite and surface station temps. Use the raw data – not the data which has been adjust to show…wait for it…that temperatures are going up.

    Second is that once Europe and the US are on board, it may be possible to pressure China the way it has been pressured on labor practices.

    No. It won’t be possible.

    This was a bad movie because the acting and writing were bad, and because it gave people the wrong idea about global warming.

    Yes. It gave the wrong idea that AGW existed.

  16. #216
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:32 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    Trust me, lgm. EVERYONE reading this is convinced that I know more about this topic than you.

    I doubt “everyone” cares.

    I was especially shocked to see that you can hold a grudge for nearly two years:

    Don’t you remember how I embarrassed you back in Dec 2007?

    …and I thought I was a being a d|ck for carrying things over several days. Isn’t there some kind of homeopathic medicine to calm you down?

  17. #217
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:47 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:13 pm, zeroangel said:

    Claims of homeopathy’s efficacy (beyond the placebo effect) are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical evidence.[9][10][11][12]

    First, I obviously understand the collective weighting of scientific and clinical evidence with respect to NDAs better than you do.

    Second, so the absence of evidence means that something can’t be true? If I kill someone, but the prosecutor finds no evidence, does that mean that I didn’t commit murder? Very strange logic.

    Look, next time you get sick, by all means go to a “homeopathic doctor.” I am not going, and neither is any of my family members. It’s stupid.

    1. You have a short memory. I named homeopathic remedies as something which should not be given any attention but which shouldn’t be laughed at.

    2. You severely lack a sufficient range of greyscale.

    3. Why should someone expend the resources (resources that you consider a mere matter of semantics) to develop evidence that supports a homeopathic remedy? They will never generate a return on those invested resources. There’s a lack of evidence partially because there’s a lack of economic incentive to develop the evidence. The remedy wouldn’t even warrant Orphan Drug status.

    An entire planet that happens to have the thickest atmosphere in the solar system and also happens to have a higher surface temperature than the inner most planet. Shaky ground, indeed.

    I don’t consider that shaky ground. I consider that a single data point.

    You first! Let us know what you find out.

    Seriously, I was thinking about getting an advanced degree in this field, then making an overreaching claim that human activity was threatening the gravitational mechanism.

    After I gained notoriety in the field by the all-knowing media, I would then control the peer-review process such that no conflicting papers could be published AND then scoff at such papers because they weren’t, in fact, published. I would quickly develop “consensus.”

    I would collaborate with biologists (that know nothing about gravity) to claim that my claims are true and that all low-mass species on earth were in danger of extinction.

    I would then obtain grants worth $$ billions to further conduct my research since all low-mass species on earth were in danger of extinction.

    Then, I would characterize anyone skeptical about my claims as anti-science. After all, my claims would most certainly be based on a preponderance of evidence.

  18. #218
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:49 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:32 pm, zeroangel said:

    I was especially shocked to see that you can hold a grudge for nearly two years:

    Is it a fact that I hold “a grudge?” If so, please explain the evidence that led you to believe that this was a fact.

  19. #219
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:54 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    Second, so the absence of evidence means that something can’t be true?

    Like I said, if you want to go to a witch doctor with herbs and incense, go ahead. Just don’t expect me to take it seriously without evidence. I especially won’t pay for it.

    I named homeopathic remedies as something which should not be given any attention but which shouldn’t be laughed at.

    Along with YEC. When do you start laughing? How absurd does something have to be before you laugh? Do you laugh at flat-earthers?

    The rest of your post I either generally agree with, already addressed, or doesn’t need to be addressed.

  20. #220
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:57 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    Is it a fact that I hold “a grudge?”

    Is it?

    If so, please explain the evidence that led you to believe that this was a fact.

    I believe you are holding a grudge based on the idea that you drag out an ancient post that you claim embarrasses another poster.

  21. #221
    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:58 pm, DBNinKY said:

    Cosmological effects can be safely dismissed.

    Agreed, and thank you for replying.

  22. #222
    On May 14th, 2009 at 4:00 pm, zeroangel said:

    DBNinKY:

    My pleasure. Thank you for your gracious and polite manner.

  23. #223
    On May 14th, 2009 at 4:03 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:54 pm, zeroangel said:

    Just don’t expect me to take it seriously without evidence. I especially won’t pay for it.

    Don’t back away from your previous statements. You stated that you will laugh at it. You would also laugh at a detective that stated Mr. A killed Mr. B until he had a collective weight of evidence to support his claim.

    When do you start laughing? How absurd does something have to be before you laugh? Do you laugh at flat-earthers?

    Very fair question. Thank-you for asking. I will address this later.

    The rest of your post I either generally agree with, already addressed, or doesn’t need to be addressed.

    You think you agree or addressed, but I don’t think you understand some of the subtle points I was attempting to make.

    But gravity is always a fun topic!

  24. #224
    On May 14th, 2009 at 4:09 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    Umm no. I will laugh at homeopathy because despite all the effort, there is no evidence. I would also laugh at some detective that continues to try and prove his theory that Mr. A killed Mr. B even though Mr. A wasn’t even in the state at the time of the murder and another detective already proved Mr. C committed the murder.

    YEC and homeopathy are both laughable.

    Very fair question. Thank-you for asking. I will address this later.

    You will address whether or not you laugh at flat-earthers later? Is it that difficult a question to answer?

    I don’t think you understand some of the subtle points I was attempting to make.

    Pity.

  25. #225
    On May 14th, 2009 at 4:11 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 3:57 pm, zeroangel said:

    I believe you are holding a grudge based on the idea that you drag out an ancient post that you claim embarrasses another poster.

    OK. Now you only believe. That’s much better than your statement;

    …you can hold a grudge…

    To answer your question. I don’t hold a grudge. lgm is beyond grudge worthy.

    BTW, debating lgm is like debating some cocky elementary school kid. Easy to win, but it’s impossible for them to understand that they’ve been beaten.

  26. #226
    On May 14th, 2009 at 4:15 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    Now you only believe.

    Quit playing stupid semantics games.

    I believe I am talking to a human being via an internet blog currently. However, I can’t prove that 100%.

    debating lgm is like debating some cocky elementary school kid.

    Personally, were I debating a cocky child I wouldn’t even bother digging up posts from 2007. I’d consider it a waste of tmie. Hell I prolly woulnd’t even spell check.

  27. #227
    On May 14th, 2009 at 4:15 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 4:09 pm, zeroangel said:

    I will laugh at homeopathy because despite all the effort, there is no evidence.

    Um, what effort? The $200k NIH grants? HA!

    I would also laugh at some detective that continues to try and prove his theory that Mr. A killed Mr. B even though Mr. A wasn’t even in the state at the time of the murder and another detective already proved Mr. C committed the murder.

    That’s not what I asked and is a poor analogy for our discussion.

    You will address whether or not you laugh at flat-earthers later?

    Yes.

    Is it that difficult a question to answer?

    No, but it must be qualified. The universe isn’t black and white.

    Pity.

    Yes. It is.

  28. #228
    On May 14th, 2009 at 4:20 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 4:15 pm, zeroangel said:

    I believe I am talking to a human being via an internet blog currently. However, I can’t prove that 100%.

    This single example of uncertainty is meaningless. Surely, you agree that there are other varying degrees of uncertainty. Right?

    For example. You were probably more confident that; i) you were communicating with a human; than ii) I held a grudge.

    I know that I’m asking you to see ranges of grey here.

    Personally, were I debating a cocky child I wouldn’t even bother digging up posts from 2007.

    How else is he supposed to learn?

  29. #229
    On May 14th, 2009 at 5:47 pm, lgm said:

    zeroangel said (#202):

    LGM:

    Personally, I am more interested in nuclear power …

    I agree. France gets most of its electricity from nuclear.

    …and the possibility of sci-fi-ish atmospheric processors as a solution.

    Nothing suggested so far is practical, according to the people trying to do it. Maybe something will become practical.

    Dependence on fossil fuels will end one way or another. After all, there is a finite amount in the ground.

    Does Sarah Palin know this?

    corkie said (#207):

    not the data which has been adjust to show…wait for it…that temperatures are going up.

    Who should we trust, an anonymous blogger who refuses to say anything scientific or a vast majority of members of the United States National Academy of Sciences?

    You misapplied detailed balance to an open system.

    If you’re the judge, of course you win. If other people judge, they can look at who wrote more knowledgeably about it. You refused to write anything technical.

  30. #230
    On May 14th, 2009 at 7:33 pm, corkie said:

    On May 14th, 2009 at 5:47 pm, lgm said:

    Who should we trust, an anonymous blogger who refuses to say anything scientific or a vast majority of members of the United States National Academy of Sciences?

    Don’t you get it, lgm? Stop blindly trusting anyone. I think this is part of your problem. Scrutinize the situation for yourself. I doubt you blindly trust CIA so why blindly trust any other organization?

    If you’re the judge, of course you win.

    I win with any judge.

    You refused to write anything technical.

    lgm, do you know why you don’t understand anything I write? Because it’s too technical for you.

    Get up to speed on this debate, lgm. AGW theorists are against the ropes right now. They’re growing weaker every months and losing support FAST. By the end of 2009 this thing is over.

  31. #231
    On May 15th, 2009 at 11:55 am, Mostly Annoyed said:

    I just can’t let this one pass.

    An entire planet that happens to have the thickest atmosphere in the solar system and also happens to have a higher surface temperature than the inner most planet. Shaky ground, indeed.

    The inner most planet is Mercury, below is the temperature range according to NASA.

    “Temperatures on Mercury’s surface can reach 430 degrees Celsius (800 degrees Fahrenheit). Because the planet has no atmosphere to retain that heat, nighttime temperatures on the surface can drop to -170 degrees Celsius (-280 degrees Fahrenheit). ”

    In what fantasy world does the Surfacce temp of the Earth reach 430 degrees celsius? This is the problem with the global warming people( I use that term loosely) they repeat stupid remarks without checking the facts. Even in the face of facts the deny the facts are true, Al must be correct because,because He is AL Gore. Everyone knows Al Gore is the most respected scientist on the planet! Right? He must be everyone believes him without question, of course he refuses to be questioned by real scientists, but that’s just because he doesn’t have time. He is too bust saving the planet! *SARCASM OFF* Al Gore is no scientist, he is just another nut job selling a new religon to get rich. He doesn’t answer questions because he knows the science behind his claims is total crap. He is in it for the money. Cap and trade programs are not run by governments, they are run by corporations that are making a lot of money.

  32. #232
    On May 15th, 2009 at 12:20 pm, Mostly Annoyed said:

    Dependence on fossil fuels will end one way or another. After all, there is a finite amount in the ground.

    DUH!!! At any given time there is a finite amount of everything, even space in the universe. Nothing is infinite. Using your logic we should also ban breathing because ther is a finite amount of air, or ban drinking water because there is a finite supply of potable water at any given time. However when they go back to dry wells and find more oil 10 years later, doesn’t that make you question the finite supply party line. According to the scare mongers we should have run out of oil more than 10 years ago. What happened? Bad science and polotics, that’s what happened. Same as Global Warming, really bad science and really bad politics.

    By the way the light bulbs the eco nuts demand we use are made in CHINA who is the biggest generater of pollution in the world. Why aren’t you jumping on them for polluting the air and oceans and causing real problems for the furure? Here is a hint, if you tried to pull the same stunts in China that you pull here you would spend the rest of your (probably very short) life in a Chineese jail. No freedom to do what you want there, now is there?

    Try looking into some of the “ecologically friendly” countries in the EU where they tax fossil fuels at an outrageous rate and give people tax credits for wood burning furnaces, which (by the Eco nuts own reports) release more carmbon into the atsmosphere than any fossil fuel.
    You have been suckered into asking the government to raise taxes and giving them more power. I’ll bet you are happy to do it. Sheeple are an amazing things, do anything and ask nothing.

    I get really annoyed with people that just repeat “sound bites” and can’t think for themselves and refuse to read the research. But it’s still a free country, mostly. You can still think what you want, or not think at all…..

    Tell you what, you give up all energy from “fossil fuels”, move up into the hills and raise alpacas. The rest of us will continue to live our lives and make well thought out changes, like developing LED lighting rather than using toxic CF bulbs……

  33. #233
    On May 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm, lgm said:

    Mostly Annoyed said (#223):

    In what fantasy world does the Surfacce temp of the Earth reach 430 degrees celsius?

    I think he/she was talking about Venus (you know, where women come from), which has a thicker atmosphere than ours and is very hot on the surface.

  34. #234
    On May 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm, corkie said:

    On May 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm, lgm said:

    I think he/she was talking about Venus (you know, where women come from), which has a thicker atmosphere than ours and is very hot on the surface.

    lgm, you completely missed his point about Mercury. Did you honestly think that he confused the two planets? Do you ever think about anything for more than a few moments?

  35. #235
    On May 15th, 2009 at 1:33 pm, SHoward said:

    Well, I thought this thread had petered out, but….

    LGM, I have taken your advice but I don’t think the results are what you might have expected. The two sources I have had time to read are NASA and the EDF. EDF has a nifty fact vs. myth pdf, but it isn’t quite hard evidence for your side.

    There are several myths that are clearly myths, and I wouldn’t insult anyone’s intelligence by arguing them, but some myths have the response that they may in fact be partly contributing.

    Nasa’s temp chart actually shows a leveling off of temerature averages, as well.

    Something I can’t quite get past is that if several factors are heavily suspected contributors, just how much of a contribution is CO2?

    You see, CO2 may be able to absorb and retain heat, but there are much more likely suspects such as CFCs, which are no longer produced in many countrys. I know they got the blame for the Ozone weak spot, but they existed because they were excellent refridgerants. They have been replaced by others, which also can absorb a he!! of a lot more heat than CO2.

    After perusing the material, it just doesn’t seem that CO2 can be much of a factor, and that is the core of the current debate: Alarmists are effectively selling us the idea that CO2 is the only bogeyman.

    PS: I’d really like the available material to be more technical up front. When you ping a site about GW, the first thing they want to tell you is what you should do about it, not how it is happening. You have to dig pretty hard and be persistant to discover anything useful in debate.

  36. #236
    On May 15th, 2009 at 1:59 pm, corkie said:

    After perusing the material, it just doesn’t seem that CO2 can be much of a factor,

    At the forefront of this debate the AGWers will readily admit this.

    However, they claim that the CO2 is enough of a factor in warming to cause the formation of extra water vapor. They then claim that the extra water vapor will be responsible for catastrophic warming.

    Naturally, they are then pressed to explain how such an unstable climate system wouldn’t have already experienced catastrophic warming in the past. They basically claim that such warming HAS occurred in the past (and obviously humans are not to blame).

    So, they admit that catastrophic global warming has occurred naturally in the past but that man is responsible for it THIS time.

    Now do you see why I think they’re on the ropes?

  37. #237
    On May 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm, zeroangel said:

    Mostly annoyed:

    I am a AGW skeptic as I have mentioned several times now.

    Please read everything I had to say in the future, LGM is correct; I was talking about Venus and I was only trying to illustrate the idea that GG do indeed retain heat (this doesn’t mean I am certain that man makes enough to have any substantial effect).

    I had also “jumped on China.” It’s obvious you took one portion of my post, assumed what my position was (incorrectly) and decided to jump all over me.

    It’s rather rude to be honest.

    I get really annoyed with people that just repeat “sound bites”

    Indeed. I also get really annoyed with people that only read “sound bites” and assume everything else from there.

    Tell you what, you give up all energy…

    I’ll tell you what, why don’t you read everything people have to say in the future so you don’t end up looking silly by making unfounded assumptions.

  38. #238
    On May 15th, 2009 at 2:27 pm, corkie said:

    On May 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm,

    Please read everything I had to say in the future, LGM is correct; I was talking about Venus and I was only trying to illustrate the idea that…

    I’m fairly confident that he knew you were “talking about” Venus since…you know…you wrote “Venus.”

    It also seems as if he knew why you were talking about Venus. Do you know why he was talking about Mercury? It seems as if you missed his point.

    One last thing, I think this response may have been to lgm, not you.

  39. #239
    On May 15th, 2009 at 2:39 pm, zeroangel said:

    cokrie:

    Ill let him spaek for hmislef.

  40. #240
    On May 15th, 2009 at 2:53 pm, corkie said:

    He might not check this thread again.

    And I’ll speak for myself. lgm didn’t understand his point about Mercury.

  41. #241
    On May 15th, 2009 at 5:35 pm, Mostly Annoyed said:

    I appologize I misread the post. However I don’t think your comparison is valid. You can’t reasonably compare the temperatures of a planet with no atsmosphere to one with an atsmosphere.
    The conclusions are massivly oversimplified.

  42. #242
    On May 15th, 2009 at 6:19 pm, zeroangel said:

    Mostly Annoyed:

    There are other factors to be sure, but it is a fact that an atmosphere and GGs retain heat. That was my point.

    Anyone who tries to argue against this can’t be taken seriously. A valid argument would be to question to what degree GGs emitted by human beings have any effect.

  43. #243
    On May 16th, 2009 at 10:31 am, DBNinKY said:

    Dependence on fossil fuels will end one way or another. After all, there is a finite amount in the ground.

    Perhaps, but until that time comes, and as there are currently few feasible alternatives to fossil fuels, would Democrats and the administration mind allowing Appalachians to continue feeding their families by directing the EPA to stop holding up the more than 100 strip-mining permits it has been sitting on for the past four months?

  44. #244
    On May 16th, 2009 at 12:33 pm, lgm said:

    corkie said (#226):

    you completely missed his point about Mercury. Did you honestly think that he confused the two planets?

    ZA (#205) compared Mercury to Venus, but MA (#223) seemed to compare Mercury to Venus. I apologize to MA if I misunderstood his/her post. I hope my post about Venus wasn’t rude.

    Do you ever think about anything for more than a few moments?

    Do you ever write a post where the content is longer than the insult?

    SHoward said (#227):

    CO2 may be able to absorb and retain heat, but there are much more likely suspects such as CFCs…

    I really appreciate your open mind about this. I looked it up and found information that disagrees with yours. It’s true that CFC’s are better at absorbing outbound heat, but there’s more CO2. See the chart after Natural and anthropogenic (can’t cut and paste a chart here).

  45. #245
    On May 16th, 2009 at 1:01 pm, zeroangel said:

    DBNinKY:

    would Democrats and the administration mind allowing Appalachians to continue feeding their families by directing the EPA to stop holding up the more than 100 strip-mining permits it has been sitting on for the past four months?

    Sounds good to me; the libertarian in me is completely open to more or less anything as long as we are generally responsible. To me, that means no dumping of poisonous chemicals and wanton pollution.

  46. #246
    On May 16th, 2009 at 1:17 pm, corkie said:

    On May 15th, 2009 at 6:19 pm, zeroangel said:

    Anyone who tries to argue against this can’t be taken seriously. A valid argument would be to question to what degree GGs emitted by human beings have any effect.

    Um. The Journal of Modern Physics disagrees with you. They reviewed and published a paper by Gerlich & Tscheuschner which addresses this very issue.

    You should read something about the paper. A great quote is that G&T address the “fictitious atmospheric greenhouse effects.”

  47. #247
    On May 16th, 2009 at 1:25 pm, corkie said:

    On May 16th, 2009 at 12:33 pm, lgm said:

    ZA (#205) compared Mercury to Venus, but MA (#223) seemed to compare Mercury to Venus.

    So explain the problem. You’re stating that both compared Mercury to Venus. Surely you see the comparison is relavant.

    Do you ever think about anything for more than a few moments?

    Now lgm, does your version of AGW rely on the extra trace amounts of CO2 causing a build-up of additional water vapor in the atmosphere? Or are you insisting that the extra CO2 alone has sufficient mass, and therefore sufficient specific heat capacity, to cause catastrophic warming? BTW, it’s ok to admit that you don’t understand this issue at all.

  48. #248
    On May 16th, 2009 at 3:54 pm, zeroangel said:

    cokrie:

    Gerlich & Tscheuschner

    Or, I coudl spned two secodns doing some resaerch and find out most scientists think it’s nonsesne.

    They’re growing weaker every months and losing support FAST. By the end of 2009 this thing is over.

    You want to bet on this? Gentlemen’s bet if fine. $1 via paypal?

    Mostly Annoyed apologzied. He thouhgt I was takling abuot Earth vs. Mercury. That shuold settle this.

  49. #249
    On May 16th, 2009 at 4:14 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkei:

    Lauhgable or not:

    http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/

    ?

  50. #250
    On May 16th, 2009 at 7:05 pm, corkie said:

    On May 16th, 2009 at 3:54 pm, zeroangel said:

    Gerlich & Tscheuschner
    Or, I coudl spned two secodns doing some resaerch and find out most scientists think it’s nonsesne.

    That sounds about right. You seem to be all about popular thought. Maybe you could form your own opinion about it. Actually, you already did – you used Venus as your single data point on the issue.

    He thouhgt I was takling abuot Earth vs. Mercury.

    Did he? lgm seems to think he was comparing Mercury to Venus. Anyway, it doesn’t change the point made.

    Lauhgable or not:

    I don’t think it’s laughable to have such a forum. Did you check it out? It seems as if most of the “believers” don’t really believe that the earth is flat – but enjoy making amateur skeptics look like idiots for wandering on and attempting to make stupid arguments.

    You want to bet on this?

    What’s “this?” That they’re growing weaker and losing support FAST?

  51. #251
    On May 16th, 2009 at 7:40 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    WRT Gerlich & Tscheuschner my opnion is I don’t have to waste my tmie raeding it anymre than I need to waste my time reading nonsesne from “flat-earthers.”

    LGM can spaek for himself. It’s obvious what Mostly Annoyed meant as he apologized for misundersatnding. Whatever you imagined his point to be, it clearly wasn’t.

    So, flat-earthers are NOT laughable? Who cares if some of the people that post on that web page aren’t COMPLETELY crazy! Flat-earth ideas are just plain stupid (weren’t you going to adddress that?).

    That’s me though, all about popular thought, like the idea the earth is more than 6000 years old.

    As far as betting, I will bet you that by the end of 2009 this “thing” (AGW debate) will not be over. Isn’t that what you were cliaming:

    By the end of 2009 this thing is over.

    ?

  52. #252
    On May 16th, 2009 at 8:02 pm, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    Since you seem to buy this nonsesne, (or at least don’t thnk it’s luaghable) along with YEC and others:

    http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.4324

    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/03/gerlich_and_tscheuschner_oh_my.php

    http://atmoz.org/blog/2007/07/10/falsification-of-the-atmospheric-co2-greenhouse-effects/

    There’s plenty more, but Arthur P. Smith’s math should be all you need.

  53. #253
    On May 18th, 2009 at 9:43 am, corkie said:

    On May 16th, 2009 at 8:02 pm, zeroangel said:

    So let me get this straight. You found multiple pieces written by people that thought it worth their time to address G&T?

  54. #254
    On May 18th, 2009 at 9:48 am, corkie said:

    As far as betting, I will bet you that by the end of 2009 this “thing” (AGW debate) will not be over.

    I think the AGW debate will lose a critical mass of thought leaders.

    I’m sure many will believe and discuss for years to come. After all – it’s a religious belief now.

  55. #255
    On May 18th, 2009 at 9:55 am, corkie said:

    So, flat-earthers are NOT laughable?

    No. I stated that the forum wasn’t laughable.

    …weren’t you going to adddress that?

    Yes, I was going to describe a belief gradient to you. One which starts with struggled-faith and evolves through to solid beliefs based on concrete evidence.

    Even our justice system has two levels of belief for juries to follow. One is “beyond a reasonable doubt” (for criminal cases) and the other is “preponderance of the evidence” (for civil cases).

    However, the more I thought about it. The more I believed that such a sophisticated and deep discussion would probably be a waste.

    You seem to have only two levels of belief – on and off.

  56. #256
    On May 18th, 2009 at 9:56 am, corkie said:

    That’s me though, all about popular thought, like the idea the earth is more than 6000 years old.

    No. Not that strawman. Tell me something you believe which goes against the grain (other than AGW).

  57. #257
    On May 18th, 2009 at 10:01 am, corkie said:

    LGM can spaek for himself.

    Yes, we will let lgm speak for himself. After all – it seemed to be his post that Most Annoyed was bashing.

  58. #258
    On May 18th, 2009 at 11:04 am, zeroangel said:

    corkie:

    You found multiple pieces written by people that thought it worth their time to address G&T?

    I found mulitple people that considered it important to democstrate how utterly false G&T’s conclusions are; Smith used concrete math to do so. Just because someone takes the time to refute flat-earthers does not mean flat-earth “theory” deserves any credence. Smith himself pointed this out:

    The results presented here are not new. However the form of presentation is designed to clearly and accurately
    respond to recent claims1 that a physics-based analysis can “falsify” the atmospheric greenhouse effect.

    Anyhow, are you going to conceed that G&T were wrong or will you address Smtih’s math?

    I think the AGW debate will lose a critical mass of thought leaders

    That is rather different from saying, “this thing will be over.” Backpeddling I see. Is there any objective measure you’d like to bet on? How about we bet on whether or not the NAS reverses their opinion by the end of the year?

    I stated that the forum wasn’t laughable.

    Oh? Ok, so are flat-earther’s laughable or not?

    You seem to have only two levels of belief – on and off.

    Oh spare me. These little jibes of yours do nothing for your point. Furthermore, as demonstrated by my opinion of AGW; that is, being skeptical but still unsure due do questions about the model; I am quite capable of a range of opinions. However, when it comes to flat-earthers and YEC, I am rather compfprtable in saying it is laughable nonsense.

    Tell me something you believe which goes against the grain (other than AGW).

    Are you serious? Skepticism of AGW is not enough? OK…

    1) I support the Iraq war and always have before, during and after having served there.
    2) I think GWB was a decent man that did a generally positive job running the country.
    3) I don’t believe in God (that’s a rather big “against the grain” there).
    4) I am of the opinion that MJ should be legalized.

    …do I really have to go on? I realize you are trying to paint me as a follower, but the reality flies in the face of your caricature.

    After all – it seemed to be his post that Most Annoyed was bashing.

    Yet, he was quoting me, both times.

  59. #259
    On May 18th, 2009 at 1:08 pm, SHoward said:

    LGM, if you’re still following this thread, I haven’t put you on ignore. I have only had time to scan the Wiki article you linked, and on the surface I am compelled to say that I am still skeptical, but the issue has a great deal of importance so I won’t just let it hang.

    I do assume the article is well edited, because as I recall you mentioned a couple of months ago on another topic that you may not consider wikipedia a great source of information. And I have already read the articel on Radiative Forcing some time ago.

    See ya when I see ya….

  60. #260
    On May 18th, 2009 at 1:26 pm, corkie said:

    …are you going to conceed that G&T were wrong…

    Reread my comments. I never thought G&T’s conclusions were accurate. You should know that I’ve always believed that GG retards cooling. I think that was one of my first comments on this thread. I just enjoy reading you put everything into one of two categories; i) fact, and ii) laughable.

    That is rather different from saying, “this thing will be over.” Backpeddling I see.

    I’m not backpeddling at all. I always meant to imply the scientific aspect of this. I never wanted to address the religion aspect. I’ll have to think about which aspect the NAS leans.

    Ok, so are flat-earther’s laughable or not?

    Yes, they are. Their beliefs are not credibly based on any meaningful evidence or faith. Most of their beliefs seem to be based on pure conspiracy theory and are, therefore, laughable.

    Are you happy I finally answered? :)

    Do you understand why I delayed answering?

    These little jibes of yours do nothing for your point. … However, when it comes to flat-earthers and YEC, I am rather compfprtable in saying it is laughable nonsense.

    How would you now what does something for my point. You don’t understand half the points I’m making. Your second sentence above makes that quite clear.

    I realize you are trying to paint me as a follower…

    Wow. That’s not what I was trying to do. Why did you provide me with three (out of four) useless examples of matters with no right answer? You obviously missed my point again.

  61. #261
    On May 18th, 2009 at 1:26 pm, zeroangel said:

    SHoward:

    may not consider wikipedia a great source of information.

    Wiki is generally a great first source. It’s best to follow their footnotes though if you are doing challenged research. I have noticed that wiki will sometimes paraphrase or take things out of context. For the most part though, autodidacts of the world can rejoice, wiki is a good place to learn a great deal without having to pay for it.

  62. #262
    On May 18th, 2009 at 1:42 pm, zeroangel said:

    Corkie:

    I never thought G&T’s conclusions were accurate. You should know that I’ve always believed that GG retards cooling.

    Then what was the point in bringing it up?

    I’ll have to think about which aspect the NAS leans.

    Are we going to bet on anything or not?

    Are you happy I finally answered?

    Yes, finally. I have no idea why you bothered to take it this far though. Other than, of course, trying to argue that YEC’s, flat-earthers and otherwise do not have contempt for science (they clearly do).

    You don’t understand half the points I’m making.

    I am done reading your nonsense. It’s painfully obvious that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

    As it should be apparent from the last sentence of #218, I think you are a child, now I’m convinced it’s not worth responding to you at all.

    You are a sophist, pure and simple. The only reason one would want to respond to you is so that otherwise uneducated readers won’t be fooled. If we aren’t betting on anything there isn’t anything left to say.

  63. #263
    On May 18th, 2009 at 2:25 pm, corkie said:

    You are a sophist, pure and simple.

    Everything is pure and simple for you.

    Then what was the point in bringing it up?

    I had absolutely no reason to bring it up. None. Everything is either a fact or laughable.

    It’s painfully obvious that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

    Not at all. But I get that you don’t understand me.

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