Winter Soldier fables: Anti-war “Marine” was lying mental patient; Updated
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You remember Jessie MacBeth, don’t you? He was the fake “Army Ranger” thug who lied about serving in Iraq and was promoted by the Iraq Veterans Against the War until milbloggers exposed him as a total fraud.
Well, meet a guy who makes Jessie MacBeth look like a choir boy.
And add this story to the ever-growing file of bogus Winter Soldier Syndrome tales from MacBeth and Micah Wright to Josh Lansdale and Amorita Randall.
“Rick Duncan” of Colorado Springs was a prominent anti-war activist who claimed to have served in Iraq on three tours of duty AND survived the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon. He has now been unmasked as a lying mental patient (via Colorado Springs Gazette with a big hat tip to This Ain’t Hell):
The leader of a statewide veterans group who fought for homeless veterans in Colorado Springs was in the Denver County jail on Wednesday, unmasked as a former psychiatric patient who posed as a wounded Marine officer and 9/11 survivor.
Federal authorities are looking into whether Rick Duncan, whose real name is Richard Glen Strandlof, could have pilfered money he raised in the name of Colorado veterans, said Daniel Warvi of the Colorado Veterans Alliance (CVA), the group that Duncan founded.
“We were all taken aback,” Warvi said.
Strandlof, 31, who invented the name Duncan and claimed he was a former Marine captain and 1997 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, never served in the military and falsely claimed that he was in the Pentagon during the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the group said.
Two members of CVA said the group became suspicious of the man they knew as Duncan after discovering inconsistencies in his personal story…The group said it found that Strandlof had been a patient in a mental hospital in Washoe County, Nev., at the time of the roadside bombing in Fallujah, Iraq, that he claimed left him severely wounded. CVA members contacted the FBI field office in Denver, which opened an investigation in early May and arrested him Tuesday night in downtown Denver on a traffic warrant originating in El Paso County.
According to Warvi, when an FBI agent asked whether he was Strandlof or Duncan, he responded “both,” then requested an attorney.
Duncan was quoted extensively by Colorado newspapers and TV stations whose b.s. detectors were apparently in the repair shop:
Under his invented identity, Strandlof proved to be a popular spokesman on veterans’ issues. He is quoted in stories as recently as March, when he was interviewed by The Denver Post about a measure before the state General Assembly to cut tuition for veterans.
He often spoke vividly of being in the Pentagon on Sept. 11 when a hijacked airliner was crashed into the building.
“The duality of that day, the good and the bad that I saw that day, are forever etched in my mind and in my memory,” he told KOAA television in an interview last year marking the anniversary of the attacks.
The Gazette quoted Strandlof on issues concerning homeless veterans. The Colorado Springs Independent wrote about him in articles about veterans struggling to deal with their experiences in war and PTSD.
On YouTube, Strandlof appears in desert camouflage talking about his “wounds.”
“I was involved in an IED explosion that killed four Marines,” he said. “I have a plate roughly the size of a, like, cup and saucer on this portion of my skull.” In the video, Strandlof also claims to have had a hip replacement and to have “had a finger blown off.”
Here’s that video:
Get a load of some of Duncan’s other performances. Here he is using his Absolute Moral Authority to condemn torture in December 2008:
Here he is reading the 91st Psalm after recounting how he was “heavily injured” on his third tour in Iraq:
This Ain’t Hell follows the rest of the Internet and YouTube trails. This faker wrote a piece published at VoteVets.org, the same anti-war group promoted by Gen. Wesley Clark which fell for anti-war hoax “soldier” Josh Lansdale.
Duncan/Strandlof is going to need a lot more than prayers and poetry therapy in dealing with the feds.
***
Greyhawk at Mudville Gazette has some must-read updates on Duncan/Strandlof’s Nevada fundraising scam.
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Categories: Jessie Macbeth,Veterans,War
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*Note to MSM: Don’t trust, but verify; Works every time!
Is Michelle looking for the 2009 Harry Reid congressional condemnation? Doesn’t she know that this kind of reporting is what led to Rush receiving the 2007 award?
Send him down to Fort Carson and have him meet the real Iraq vets.
MSM = Marxist Socialist Media
Treason n the offense of attempting to overthrow the government of one’s country or of assisting its enemies in war
Really, Michelle have you forgotten who is in charge of the feds? Zero and his water carriers don’t care if everything this guy has ever done in his life is a lie, if it can advance anything they wish to advance, his story will be the absolute truth.
The MSM’s conduct is perfectly understandable Red Pill. Their view is the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Why wouldn’t they want to destroy an organization whose members take an oath to defend a document they view as an impediment to their progressive objectives?
As I normally agree with you, MM, and not to troll, but what does all the emphasis on his mental illness imply? Does the existence of mental illness and his stay in a hospital for said illness strengthen or weaken the overall point of the story?
Not sure you implied it, but mental illness is not partisan.
All I can say is this guy Strandlof or Duncan is a POS.
The MSM mostly (nearly entirely) ignore how a signifcant number of our young warrior/heroes votes were uncounted in 2008 (as well as in…), yet they jump and yell “achtung!” to the world with faux stories by slugs like this puke. Saul Alinsky is alive and well in todays MSM and Dhimi party.
I wonder how the gullible bunch that lapped up this street s*#ts phony spiel feels now that the cats out of the bag?The need to hear how evil America is overrode their brains and they got punked.I hope they paid the guy for his celebrity appearances.
The real damage is already done.
Dipstick’s like this are running rampant across our nation and using the same tactics to sway people’s opinions. It’s amazing that it works. Or maybe it’s not amazing considering Obama is in the White House.
The media uses these stories to support what they want to hear. As long as someone else has the pulpit and is saying what they want, why would the media ever care to verify? It’s a double service to the media because they can just blare that sort of crap across the airwaves, internet and television whether it is truthful or not. Then when the real facts come forth the media is not repsonsible. Clean hands. They might claim some responsibility in a rare case or two but that’s usually in some fine print any casual user would never even find printed somewhere and the work has already been done.
I think the point MM was making was not the mental illness per se but rather:
And:
She is after the brainless media that prints/reports any derogatory story about our military (professed by a loon or someone with genuine mental probs) without even a cursory fact check. Apparently the MSM ate this crap up, without an ounce of truth to it. Things lke this only embolden and aid our enemies.
Like most liberals, this guy was long on words and short on action. He’s the type that discounts what someone else says unless they served…then roundly condemns them even if they did serve. Like others, I hardly expect msm to say much about this, and undoubtedly there will be another standard bearer to take his place within the hour. If this guys excuse is that he had mental issues, what excuse do reid and pelosi have? And…even after this poor excuse of a scumbag, I’d still have to rank him higher than someone like murtha.
I expect that a lot of the people who speak with the authority this guy did about “knowing” about torture and black ops…
know exactly what this guy knows from first hand experience…
ZIP
http://www.star-telegram.com/metro_news/story/1375079.html
The real deal.
Or any Marines he may cross paths with.
elcapt, the story is not about him but about his role as a useful idiot. Or as I call them, Democrats.
The media won’t even verify the man they had elected to President. Why would anyone think they would waste a single breath verifying these anti-America/anti-war traitors.
These people only advance the cause. The media and the individual organizations use them as often and as publicly as humanly possible. The things that they say are then absorbed into the empty little minds of their fellow anti-America/anti-war traitors and idiots, and thus the deed is done.
By the time these traitors are exposed for who and what they are, the message they have been spewing is already so deeply ingrained in the minds of the people that it doesn’t matter in the least what they were.
Is there anyone here who thinks the people that have heard the filth and lies they spread will be equal to the numbers that hear they are fakes and insane? Does anyone here or anywhere, for that matter, think that the fact these people are insane and are fakes will reach the Middle East and those that take took their lies to heart over there? No.
How many lives have these groups cost? How many soldiers have been maimed or killed because of the lies these people they use told?
Sorry…but I am not going to hold my breath for an apology from any of them. I would just turn a funny blue color and get a BIGGER headache.
Will they learn from this like they didn’t in the past and actually have these a******s provide uncompromising evidence and proof that they are who they claim to be and that what they claim happened actually happened before they shove them out into the world?
No. Because that does not serve the greater good. In their minds, the ends always justify the means, regardless of how wrong the means or who or how many are hurt in the process.
That’s sooo funny. It reminds me of uncountable times when taking a shower and suddenly the tones go off and next thing you know, you are soaking wet inside your bunkers, soap half rinsed out of your hair, freezing to death on the way to some call…legit or not.
This kind of thing never fails to get me frothing mad. Not just at the liar himself, but all the morons that lapped it up and used it to further their own agenda.
If he were a real vet, and his opinion were on the other side, he would be a war criminal.
Grrrrrr!!!
Michelle, let’s send Jason Mattera after Wesley Clark and see what he’s got to say about this phony faker. Clark was more than happy to use him for his stupid little Democrat operation, now he should be put on the spot and held to account.
Being an actual veteran himself, and using those stars for his own advancement, Wesely needs to get confronted on this one.
What do ya say?
Those who have served in the military can often identify an imposter in a short period of time. By asking a few pertinent questions and judging the answers for their accuracy and the correct use of military jargon that only someone who has been in the military and experienced what they claim will be able to provide, fake soldiers will eventually give themselves away as being what they are — fakes.
Very few members of today’s media have served. They are incapable of recognizing the bs offered up by the fakes. That, coupled with their overwhelming proclivity to loathe the military, makes them the perfect useful idiots to accept the lies told by the fakes and then perpetuate those lies in their ridiculous reports.
Michelle you are a goddess to me. I loved the “b.s. detector in the repair shop” as well as the “come back to bite them in the ass” quote from earlier this a.m. Nothing gets by you. I still remember you telling Juan Hernandez—”you are not my friend and you certainly are not a friend of America”.
Your husband is a lucky man as are we to have you. There are many of us out in the country who are thankful for the job you do and pray for you. Things would be worse if not for you and hot air.
Sincerely, Arnold Z., retired cop and Vietnam vet.
This is not a new phenomenon. I remember a few guys in my circle of friends “outing” a hanger-on who claimed to have been in Vietnam, killed women and children, and was stricken with post-traumatic stress syndrome. A couple of the guys who’d actually seen combat were able to press him with questions and his answers did not ring true. Add to that, the details of his stories kept changing. This guy was pathetic: ineffectual and weak, he had no other way to make himself look sympathetic but to claim a faked history.
Nonsense. He will skate because his lies fit the needs of Obama and Company. Rewards are in order, not punishment.
It implies that a liberal anti war groups used and abused a mentally ill man to push their agenda. That they knew he was lying but it didnt matter whatg mattered was smearing america with lies.
The liberal anti-war crowd (most of the msm and democraps) using a mentally ill person to slam our country is just another illustration of the hatred for our country they hold in their hearts.
Perhaps Janet Napolitano should be concerned that this so-called veteran might become involved in violent anti-government groups intent on harming this nation. I hear that sort of thing is going around…
Isn’t POTUS an imposter too? Or is that ‘usurper’?
Just noticing…
The Clinton’s and MSM boy Gen. Wesley Clark isn’t doing too good is he? Sadly this is the kind of officer who will do well in the Obamination. Many of his fellow officers considered him more self-serving than Army Tough. That he and his organization should associate with the likes of this poor soul is to be understood.
I think Obama’s got a post in the Pentagon in mind for this guy.
But he’s got Sandy Burglar and Richard “The Joker” Clarke hanging around with him. What more could he ask for?
There are not enough words to describe this “Winter Soldier” and after working at a mental health facility where we would periodiclly see veterans, as well as the “wanna be’s”.
Irregardless of service, vets have an uncanny ability figure out the cB.S. within a few questions. For me, I tend to ask the basic HM type questions about Tricare, coast stationed on and MARDIV. It also doesn’t hurt to know the enlisted ranks of all the other services too.
Sadly this guy ranks on equal terms with Murtha and yet lower than Cindy Sheehan by a fraction of a degree.
GSP
“This is Sparta!”
On top of everything else, in order to fit the liberal template he claimed to be an openly gay commanding officer and that nobody cared he was gay. The only thing missing from his fake resume’ is a mention of some heroic work done to end global warming.
Way back when — This Poge would have been intruduced to the blanket party.
Cordially invited also.
Paging Jon Carey, Paging Jon Carey….
Those idiot reporters didn’t recognize this? Maybe it wasn’t seared, seared into their little liberal brains. I suppose if “Duncan” had told them he was in Cambodia in ’68, the fool reporters would have believed him.
I don’t think they are out for repairs Michelle. I think they’ve already been thrown into the landfill by now.
One should always be suspicious of a liberal claiming to be a decorated military veteran. This oxymoron is one that begs investigation before belief. Of course, the primary group to fall for it is the liberal MSM and the Democrat Socialist Party.
As to mentioning his mental illness in the story as some have commented, I believe it adds to rather than subtracts from it. It shows how the Democrat Socialist Party members will use even mentally ill people to further their cause.
The use of the term mentally ill to describe a perpetrator is nowhere near as bad as when the MSM uses the words “former Sunday School teacher” or “former Pastor” when describing a criminal or con artist who may have attended church once or twice in their life and the moniker has no bearing whatsoever to the story.
Sounds like Leonard from Full Metal Jacket.
Guys like Duncan and MacBeth (maybe even Clark) need a new nick-name… something like Pink Pansies?
There are two facts in play here: 1. The Left doesn’t care about the truth, only about driving Teh Narrative. 2.Liberals tend to be mentally ill.
That stolen valor act really ought to be amended to make all false claims of military service a crime.
I’m tired of the fakes. The older I get, the more I realize that there really are a lot of people in this country who can’t, won’t, couldn’t and never will carry their share of the load. That Honorable Discharge isn’t just a piece of paper.
Reminds me of the Next Food Network Star contest where former marine Josh Adam Garcia made up a pack of lies and was getting away with those lies.
The Military Times did some checking and found out the truth. Evidently, the producers had liked his story and never gave it scrutiny. He was in the final two, then the story broke.
He also had not gone to Pakistan, or deployed anywhere, evidently.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/06/military_garcia_foodnetwork_070612/
I guess they just can’t find enough real soldiers to protest. So they need to start “manufacturing” them.
Note to VoteVets.org, Iraq War Vets Against the War, et. al.; when the facts are not on your side, and when you need to fake vets for your protest, that means you are wrong. Period.
Where are ILMC, edelweiss, and lgm to tell us he is fake, but accurate?
He also invented the internet, was the inspiration for Love Story and would have won the election in 2000 if the Supreme Court hadn’t stolen it from him.
As the daddy of all these liars John Kerry ought to be very proud….they like he wouldn’t know the truth if they were shocked and awed by it!
LOL! A$$HAT! Unreal!
More proof the media will buy anything.
It matters not a whit that this guy is now exposed. His headlines ran in 72pt type and the follow up in 8pt. He served his purpose he with his lies slandered all good men. The msn Obviously didn’t care in the slightest that he was a liar and crazy as Hogans goat. They had a need to slander all good men. With so many lies and liars excepted it is more than a little difficult for a good person to fine the TRUTH, or even reasonably search for the truth. Few it seems even care. Sadly with out TRUTH there cannot be FREEDOM.
After a while, this tends to get a little old. Like all my true comrades in arms, I flat-out refuse to be slandered any more by the likes of this piece of scum. I can tell you, he would be missing off the fantail if he ever tried any of that on any ship I ever served on.
The left (media included) hate our military. The left is very dangerous because nothing matters to them, except grabbing power by any means necessary. They must be stopped.
I hear ya on that one!
I simply don’t get how so many people can be completely devoid of any sense of honor or humility. I run into them all the time.
Even lower are those propagandists in the Lame Stream Media who make use of the charlatans to push agendas that are anti-military, and anti-American.
Why aren’t military service awards and discharge status public records?
Why?
Could it be that Congresscritters are hiding something?
Why aren’t Hawaiian birth certificates public records?
Seems there are two types of people in the world:
A) Those who work hard, seek truth, succeed at what they do, and go out and make a difference in life –
B) Those pretending to be the above.
Know anyone else who fits in category B?
Not to difficult to Dupe the Smartest Dumb Guy in the world. Clark shouldn’t be allowed to mention his military service, after twice being fired and a day away from single handedly almost causing all out war with Russia.
CYA operations under way
When you sign a release posting all such information from your professional life, I will sign one for my military records.
Frankly, you do not have a need to know about my military service good or bad, nor do you have a need to see that information on any other person who wears or wore the uniform.
And it’s not just that you don’t have a “need-to-know,” but that that information in the wrong hands, as it inevitably would be, might cause, as they say, “great bodily harm” not only to the serviceman(which I wouldn’t run away from), but to his family and loved ones(who I would protect with my life).
The end justifies the means.
Rolls eyes at another liberal wacko that will get a pass from those that see the world just like him. ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, New York Times, Time, Huff Po, Kos, Acorn, Obama, Ayers, Wright, and on to liberal infinity……….
“…so, I don’t know if I should go flying down the hill with nothing but a piece of government plastic between my brain and a tree, Clark”
“Do you really think it matters, Eddie??”
“Well….it’s right under the part in my hair. So, if it god dented, my hair just wouldn’t look right!!”
What’s even worst than the MSM’s dissing truth to the public is that, by my experience with grandkids and newphews and nieces, our grade school teachers NEVER correct or retract these issues whole eagerly mentioning such. So like here say, the damage is done — and unrepaired.
James Greenidge
Queens, NY
That, and they were all too busy familiarizing everyone with the name ‘Bristol Palin’.
Understood and respected.
I also understand torabora’s frustrations and was trying to figure out how I would fact check this if some fool shows up on the landscape again.
I tried to find a student roster for the USN Academy (albeit didn’t take much time) but couldn’t find one. I doubt if mental hospitals will release patient info.
How would the media do its fact checking? If I read the Gazette article correctly, some members of the CVA found inconsistencies in Duncan’s personal story. That’s a little late in the game…
Long Gladz post short, could this really have been fact checked before all the hype?
Because many of them have your SSN on them along with other identifying information.
It would be almost as bad as being able to access YOUR tax return. I would never post my military records online for that reason.
woops! cpodug gets credit for #58. Sorry
So, basically, the only actual difference between him and any other liberal was that, in his case, the disorder was recognized and he may have received some sort of treatment for it.
Wouldn’t say much in favor of the mental institution that treated him though …
Is it just me or do only BS artists say things like this?
For example, my award from the UN has my SSN right in the middle of it.
not good.
Well that would describe a few days for me, but it is a little “poetic”
Flyoverman….I don’t think public info on the whole service record is a good idea…I just think the relevant discharge status and medals awarded would suffice to stop the frauds in their tracks.
I work at a college and I have several times met students and contract employees that are “Navy Seals” and “war veterans” etc. One even told me that his records are so secret nobody can access them. I see….
Without some level of public notice, the fraud will continue unabated.
BTW I am an 8 year Navy vet. Honorable discharge, E-5, no medals of note.
I have never really considered this issue, so I am open to be convinced either way, and the following questions are sincere, but:
1) I don’t think torabora was talking about a soldier’s entire record. Just the big stuff.
2) Isn’t a large difference the fact that the soldier is an employee of the US taxpayer?
Can you elaborate?
Michelle, include the link to your column from Sept 30, 2007 ?
My jump school diploma has my SSN right beside my name.
sonofdfy…Don’t want to read the citation, just want an official notice that it has been awarded.
What the heck is the fascination with my favorite Shakespearean play? Who’s next? A fake soldier named MacDuff?
How would they identify Sgt Jones who was awarded a Silver Star from Sgt Jones who was not without using some other identifier such as a SSN.
A correctly filled out DD-214 has all of that on it. As well as a lot of information that it would be actualy illegal under current law to release to you. See the privacy act. A new form would have to be created.
If there is currently no way to determine a persons service status, how come this “Rick Duncan” is a KNOWN fraud?
I betcha he was a top secret undercover operative who had a CIA created false record … “Duncan” isn’t even his REAL NAME! That nuthouse story is just part of the cover.
Sheesh…without an official record we’ll never know the real story.
b-cat My local court system has a search engine for criminal records…you can’t tell the Mary Smiths apart their either…but you do have a starting point.
How do we KNOW Duncan is lying?
Just another example of the LEMMING MEDIA, willing to follow any WACKO, as long as it is their MANTRA the WACKO is expounding…
http://www.mangledcat.com/archives/DD214%20001-thumb.bmp
This one was a fake but it gives you an idea of what is on a DD-214
The government has its own records; unless the arrested is part of a protected group such as illegal immigrant or member of Congress.
Certainly, or as much as I can. As far as I know, there have been no incidents where release of otherwise privileged information on service members has resulted in their death or that of their loved ones, there have been instances of harassment, taunting, etc., because of their military service. I can remember many times during the Vietnam era when I was called “baby killer” and other things much worse than that. Fortunately, in my own case, it never led to being spit on or physically harassed and threatened. But I know there are others on this blog that can attest to the physical aspects of the harassment. And it didn’t stop there – many times, we were told “We know where you live” and “We’re going to get you and your family.”
Many servicemembers can and will attest to this happening, not only during my war, but in all the wars and actions in which our military has been involved since then.
By providing the enemy with our SSN, which is contained on most, if not all of the documents in my service record, it is possible to trace me through public records, and attack me, my family, my house, etc., depending on the depth of vitriol I have aroused.
I am proud of my service, and what I did, but, to this day, my wife of 44 years doesn’t know what I did while I was in the Navy, and she never will. That is between me and my service.
HEY! Easy with the mangled cat there, sonofdy!
The 214 is fake. Thats why I choose it over the others you can find with google.
With the posts above, it sounds like not much will come from military records so how else to fact check?? If Duncan was asked where in the Pentagon he worked (or visited) on Sept. 11th, could that have been released by the Pentagon?
How about a question (to Duncan at the time) about where he specifically served in Iraq.
I’m sure some of you recently discharged/retired military folks have friends still serving. Would those friends be allowed to tell you if a Duncan type was legit? It sure would be great to get ahead of this in the future.
I would like to point out for the record that I am a real retired Sergeant Major and have the DD214 and ID card to prove it. Also, you can check my bank account on the 1st of the month. Not bragging, just fact. The only trouble is that I am the reverse of this clown. I impersonated a soldier while on active duty for 24 years, 10 months and 29 days and they just kept on promoting me – go figure. When it got to the point where I was no longer hav ing fun I retired. And yes, I am a proud Vietnam veteran (actually volunteered to go) – 1st Cav Div – An Khe – 1966/67. As far as medals go – I have the usual array of those given to every soldier who served in Vietnam plus 5 ARCOMs, 3 MSMs, Bronze Star and Legion of Merit. And yes, you can check my DD 214. And my SSN was my service number after 1971 (or thereabouts). And as far as checking on someone, anyone can go to Military.com and pull up a name. There is not much info there but you can find the MOS, Rank and Home of Record of people who claim they were in the service. I did this for my sister after she told me that the man she was dating told her he was special operations. Turned out his MOS was a helicopter mechanic. After she confronted him he told the truth. She had enough sense to drop him like the liar he was.
Mostly we can tell. GladzKravtz.
A couple of simple questions will sort out the fakes. If you don’t know the difference between a platoon and a battalion, you were never an infantryman.
11M30 (now 11B30)
88M30
13F30
SSG US army reserve right now. They have pulled the 11B mos but I am trying to fight that one. Bastards. 15 years in, 5 active.
05B2P
75D20
b-cat or the difference between a sergant major and a command sergeant major. Or if you claim to be a tanker of any kid but don’t know what GMD is.
There are a million trip ups.
Hell, he’d be perfect for the Obama’s White House Military Affairs Office. When you run out of recuits for government jobs in the prisons, go to the nut houses.
Its funny how this is always seared into the brains of the loony left yet they cant seam to remember the past.
The problem is the MSM has a template that they want to populate. When ANYONE comes along that fits the template, they plop them right in, no questions asked. Facts? Who cares? it is the agenda that needs to be addressed, not the facts.
The MSM is not interested in reporting. The MSM is interested in promoting their agenda, which in this case is the agenda of The Left.
If the war became politically advantageous for The Left and the template changed, they would unquestioningly accept the stories from supposed veterans who saw their buddies throw themselves on IED’s to save Muslim schoolchildren and ran into burning buildings to save the Korans inside.
The whole process of vetting a source and reporting the facts good or bad is dead!
Ground-based Midcourse Defense?
Can I safely pretend to be a tanker now, sonofdy, or is there anything eles I might need to know?
Maybe so but I cant think of anyone lately being treated for mental illness thats was pretending to be a Code Pinker. Then again they are all ill and dont need to pretend.
Well then, it’s too bad he got as far as he did with his lie.
Pretending to be a Code Pinker doesn’t get the blonde in the bar to go back to your place after last call.
The people he’s hanging out with wouldn’t know a real man from a fake either.