The Obamacare Show: Two dissenting docs challenge Dear Leader
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Photoshop: Reader Rachael in Ky
Here’s your open thread for the ABC News/White House Obamacare Show, which broadcasts at 10pm Eastern.
No John Stossel, it appears, but the ABC News press relations office just sent out word that a few skeptical doctors did put President Obama on the spot.
Celebrate diversity!
EXCLUSIVE: President Obama Defends Right to Choose Best Care
In ABC News Health Care Forum, President Answers Questions About Reform
By JAKE TAPPER and KAREN TRAVERSPresident Obama struggled to explain today whether his health care reform proposals would force normal Americans to make sacrifices that wealthier, more powerful people — like the president himself — wouldn’t face.
…Dr. Orrin Devinsky, a neurologist and researcher at the New York University Langone Medical Center, said that elites often propose health care solutions that limit options for the general public, secure in the knowledge that if they or their loves ones get sick they will be able to afford the best care available, even if it’s not provided by insurance.
Devinsky asked the president pointedly if he would be willing to promise that he wouldn’t seek such extraordinary help for his wife or daughters if they became sick and the public plan he’s proposing limited the tests or treatment they can get.
The president refused to make such a pledge, though he allowed that if “it’s my family member, if it’s my wife, if it’s my children, if it’s my grandmother I always want them to get the very best care.”
“There’s a whole bunch of care that’s being provided that every study, that every bit of evidence that we have indicates may not be making us healthier,” he said.
Gibson interjected that often patients don’t know what will work until they get every test they can.
“Often times we know what makes sense and what doesn’t,” the president responded, making a push for evidence-based medicine.
…Another neurologist, Dr. John Corboy of the University of Colorado Health Science Center, asked the president, “What can you do to convince the American public that there actually are limits to what we can pay for with our American health care system and if there are going to be limits, who’s going to design the system and who’s going to enforce the rules for a system like that? ”
Obama, however, didn’t directly answer the question.
We’ll have to wait and see what kind of unvetted sob stories and pro-Obamacare propaganda slipped by the ABC lapdogs…
***
Update:
Things the Obamercial taught me…
*More government = less paperwork and less bureaucracy!
*Dear Leader proclaims: “The stars have aligned.” (This from the oaf who wrongly mocked Nancy Reagan for holding seances in the White House. Reminder: It was Hillary who did that.)
*”We can’t afford not to act.” Like we haven’t heard such empty apocalyse-now haranguing a gazillion times over the last year.
***
Update: Ed Morrissey spotlights Obama’s Michael Dukakis moment.
And Jeff Poor recaps the ABC/White House presidential filibuster.
See what others have said
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Trackbacks
- Simplifying the Health Care Debate « NEOAVATARA
- Obama avoids direct answers to skeptical doctors during the ABC ObamaCARE infomercial | Fire Andrea Mitchell!
- Obama will get the best health care possible for his family, even if you can't | The Lonely Conservative
- Health Care BS - FREE MARKET? WHAT FREE MARKET?
- ObamaCare=Public Plan=Single Payer=Socialized Medicine « Nice Deb
- Major Papers Remove Obama’s Comment: ‘I’ll Be Honest, There Are Countries Where a Single-Payer System Works Pretty Well’ « Jim Blazsik
- The Fallacy Of Healthcare ‘Reform’ : Conservative Nation
- More on the Media and Obama’s Sleight of Hand | Pirates! Man Your Women!
- Obama Health Care; A Native American Warning, the Ta’Shon Story « VotingFemale Speaks!
- Obama’s Primetime Defense of Healthcare, and the Curious Case of the “Socialist” Market of Ideas « Submitted to a Candid World
- ObamaCare for All — Except for Liberal Elites and When The Government Decides It Isn’t Worth It | Axis of Right
- Obama challenged on Healthcare : ObamaIsDumb.com
- Cheat Seeking Missiles » Unsold On Obamacare
- Single-Payer Means Everyone Pays « Finding Ponies…
- Obama Would Not Pledge His Family to His Own Healthcare Plan : Stop The ACLU
- Health Care Reform Clearly a Huge Gamble, Too Experimental to Pass Without Big-Time Manipulation « Quick Daily Hits — Politics and Such
- The Strident Conservative
- Journalist Doing His Job: Jake Tapper Challenges Obama on Socialized Health Care (video) « Frugal Café Blog Zone
- Canada has a Boom in Private Health Care Business « Goodtimepolitics
- Government Health Care Lunacy - Simply Explained | The Patriot's Mind
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Categories: Health care
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Not going to watch because I no longer watch TV.
Who cares? The “one” himself said that we can’t take him literally.
I guess he will just use metaphors and allusions to the truth.
Just when you thought parsing would be enough…
Or just keep on lying….
I know ‘Bambi’s college and law degree and work records are under seal, but are his medical degree records available? If so, I’d like to see them. If not, he’s making a lot of claims that would get his butt thrown in jail for impersonating a physician.
For that matter, so is Thunderthigh Meanchelle..
This whole thing terrifies me. My husband retires next year, and we’re looking at moving out of the country.
I’ve been puking all day when I hear ABC promoting that Obambi “will answer all your questions about health care today” on ABC.
Now how the heck is he going to do that even if he wanted to? How can he provide answers about a program that isn’t even invented yet? And of course we all know that O has NO intention of actually answering real questions about health care until after it’s been shoved down our throats. Anyone want to bet on a dark of night bill that gets passed without being read?
This directly counters any suggestion that the ABC show on Healthcare is an infomercial. Though Pres Obama tapped danced around an answer, he was challenged with a great question.
I suppose the speculation as to what the show would be, or would not be, may have been premature.
For the record, my position is that any business worth their bottomline will end their healthcare plans for their employees, to save mney, and have the employees sign up for whatever the Government produces.
It won’t be a lack of choice, but a limit to choices. Especially, if your Doctor elects not to serve the Government program.
The true difficulty is not that the individual looses control, but the reality is that the individual is subject to the control, and limits, set forth by their employer, and the decisions the employer makes.
The questions are a little heartening, but I still won’t be able to bear to watch what will be one way or another a puff piece on health care reform and another chance to donate thinly-veiled cheerleading for Obama.
And not challenged by twenty more questions.
Just so you all know, Texas and LSU are playing in the championship game of the College World Series right now. LSU has taken a 5 run lead, but the Horns have already come back from a 4 run deficit once. It is a great game, much better than the TOTUS’s infomercial.
someone who watches should post any of the adverts on the always barack channel just so we can send them some notes on what we won’t be doing…like buying their products….I won’t be watching the dribble….
That is not a smart idea. The best medical care in the world is in the USA.
Except in limited cases, Medicare does not pay for medical care you receive overseas.
When BO pours Cola on his patch of carpet, I sure hope his ShamWow works…
This one question, which he dodged. But it doesn’t change what this is. An InfoMercial trying to sell ObamaCare to the suckers that vote.
The term “Snake Oil Salesman” seems to be stuck in my head.
Keep me informed-I haven’t, and will not, watched the alphabet soup networks in years. Hannity and such claim this will cost ABC their credibility-sorry lads but they lost it generations ago.
ShamWow President Hussein Obama–Did Mr. Axelrod give you your annual DRE? Cost saving and all.
Fixed.
Carefull…koolaid causes tooth decay, and dentistry will be included in the same plan.
And,
Did you watch the show? Tough questions were asked, and yes he dodged and tapped danced.
The point I am making is that speculating serves no one, we are better served by actually taking the president to task for what he actually says in response to the questions.
I was not completely satisfied with his answers, were you?
The 99 year old woman getting a pace maker? Give me a break.
I have asked this question before -
Do we spend six million dollars on a 99 year old person, or do we spend six million dollars on a pre-mature baby? Or, both? Where do we get the money from? How is the decision made?
No kool aid, no informercial, and no speculation. Just the facts, just comment on what was said, when it was said.
The questions were fairly good, the answers left me wanting.
Teeth? Who needs teeth? The Brits don’t need teeth-eat oatmeal and squash-it will be all we can afford anyway. Look at all the time you will save not brushing you teeth.
The modern political equivalent to “token blacks” that used to be on TV shows in the 1970’s……
Retiring overseas is not always a bad option: I retired in the Philippines, doctors here are mostly American medical school graduates, nurses are world class, english speaking, and one/twentieth the cost of US medical care…
Suckers is exactly right. Consider how little our government is actually representing the will of the People. How long has it been since you truly felt represented? The current political direction is in direct conflict with Constitutional Law, and they’re getting away with it under our noses.
Hell, Rahm Emmanuel is running more of the Show than Barry, who’s just a sock-puppet in the grand scheme here.
Ultimately, the Bilderbergs are pulling the strings. And I’m sure that, when the fit hits the shan, George Soros, the Rockefellers, and all of the government and financial elite will be doing just fine, making Bank on the outcome.
Meanwhile, you and I will be the batteries who will keep this machine running, being fed crumbs by the bastards who claim to represent us.
I gritted my teeth and sat through the whole thing. True to form, Obama filibustered so they never got to the “public option.” But I will give credit to ABC for at least putting some serious questioners in the ranks. Obama bobbed and weaved and blathered the usual generalities without providing any meaningful, acceptable argument in favor of his approach. He continued the Big Lie about keeping what you’re happy with, but wouldn’t be pinned down on anything except the need for change, right now, this second, because it would be too costly to do nothing. Right. It will be far too costly to do the wrong thing.
Are you saying it’s okay to let the elderly die in your view after a certain age? When does life become worthless in your view? It seems the Messiah already knows the answers as to who will live and who will die under Obamacare.
Translation: Are you kidding me? There is no way I would do that to my family!
Z,
Say that to my 92 year old mother, who has a pacemaker, and you will be the one needing major medical coverage.
How interesting that Obama stresses the importance of the relationship between a doctor and their patient with no government interference as far as abortion.
But with Obamacare, that doctor -patient relationship now desperately needs government interference/intervention.
In the other circumstances you are not being “punished with ababy.”
Put the Congress and the Executive Branch on the same healthcare plan as the rest of us and see what happens.
What’s this “we” stuff? Healthcare isn’t a right. It’s a commodity. In a free market, technological advances and financial resources properly determine where the money flows.
Obama wants to stop using new technology, and determine who lives and dies. Under his plan, both patients would be deemed “too expensive” and simply not treated. Daschel’s plan, which this seems to be based on, would even prohibit them from getting private care.
Medicine is as much art as science, and “evidence-based” medicine is a fantastic way to stop progress cold.
Individual rights sacrificed for some liberal definition of a “greater good” is the antithesis of what the country I used to love stood for.
didn’t his gm suffer from a hip injury and he didn’t feel it was important enough to have it replaced, she was old anyway or some such thing. I’m questioning, someone help me here, can’t remember the details. Gads I hate that part of getting older, losing my short term memory.
Pacemakers don’t cost “six million dollars. Now if you want to wonder how much a person is worth, is Steven Hawking, with his severe health problems, worth the money it costs to provide him mobility, his voice?
I don’t want bureaucrats making those determinations.
ECS
I have refused to give ABC any ratings ever, especially for this piece of crap.
What were the viewership ratings for the infomercial? Have they come out with numbers yet?
Not quite… The Mullah’s in Iran are tabulating them right now. We’ll know in two hours…
have to agree with you, we need to fight this any way we can. hitting the sponsors of the soup channels is one small way…they listen when the bottom line is hurting, unlike the U.S.Government.
Don’t we kn ow already that Odumbo is a hypocritical jerk?
His kids are in the private schools.
He had no problem signing the bill preventing DC residents from receiving vouchers for the private schools?
Health care ration for the commons.
No restrictions for the elected Nobles.
Will see how Kennedy gets his brain illness treatment under the new universal coverage.
Why Gibson is not wearing the glasses he needed to interview Palin?
When the truth and horror of what socialism brings to the common folk is presented you will have an honest presentation..
People that think this was a “fair” presentation of facts may just be a bit biased in their “thinking”.
Add the existing social security, medicare, and prescription drug programs that suck up most of our budgets money (but are still broke) and this is a minimum of what socialized medicine will cost.
So why would they push this all out assault for something that will cause millions more to depend on government to survive, dig our debt hole twice as deep, and actually cause delay and denial of health care available now?
Their quest for permanent power, it’s as simple and cruelly harsh as that!
Once you are dependent, there is no escape!
The left has been funding “bioethics” studies for years and they will impose the “economic limits” they have predetermined upon those deemed to be wasted efforts!
This president is not about individual choice or freedom. He is anti-freedom, and his silence during the Iranian peoples protests demonstrates this.
When will he stand up and make a speech about freedom?
Don’t hold your breath, he believes in control by government not a limited government.
Today was part of an orchestrated effort from the astro-turfed phony rallies, to the laughable weighted polls to make it seem like people are ready for this change and actually want it…
We shall see how many foolish people will fall for the marketing!
Does Obama ever actually ANSWER ANY of the questiones he is being asked? All he does is ramble on with the talking points without ever answering the actual questions. Useless, even for those trying to support Obama with this ‘plan’.
… meanwhile, only in Cal, we got the local transit union (BART) going out on strike! The entire state economy is screwed, and they are demanding more for themselves! These union clowns deserve to fail!
That is exactly whats wrong. Do we go the Oregon route where they tell a patient that they won’t provide medication that comforts them or tell them Euthenasia is a paid option? It is plain sick. And what’s sicker is that the elderly vote Democrat so much. They may as well be Jews in Nazi Germany standing in line for a train ride.
I meant to say but instead of or in the Oregon comment.
This whole debate about universal health care is comical.
The talking heads in the media and large pool of poorly educated public probably skipped Biology in High school. Somehow they are sounding off as if they are the expert on the public health.
In this debate about public vs private OPTIONS, no one is talking about the TORT.
Medicine today is more expensive because the Doctor is practicing defensive treatment.
Go to a Doctor with a sore throat, and you will be subjected to mind boggling tests and procedures. Why? So the Doctor doesn’t lose his/shirt, if sued.
The proliferation of ambulance chasers mean higher insurance premiums for the Doctor.
Essentially, the insured patients pay for many unnecessary tests and also the cost of the malpractice premiums when they visit the doctor.
That is not all. Who do you think pays for the treatments the so-called uninsured receives today? The government doesn’t pay to the Doctor or the hospital when a poor uninsured is treated in the emergency rooms. The cost of treating those freeloaders is worked into the premiums for the rest us.
Pundits and AARP are in love with Medicare.
Do people realize that the medicare tax receipts from today’s work force pays for only 1/3 of the total Medicare coverage to the senior citizens? 2/3 of the medicare spending today is with borrowed money.
After the Universal health care reforms are passed, I am envisioning rationing of care for the poor as well as the middle class working families.
As for the Rich and the political aristocrats, they will be unaffected.
They will continue to have access to medical care on demand.
Insiders on the Hill are saying that ObamaCare is on life supports.
Time to finish it off.
Cap and Tax is also in trouble.
Soetoro’s foreign policy posturing has been an abysmal failure too. Israel is thumbing its nose at him. Now Egypt is pissed at him too.
Amateur hour is about to get booed into retreat.
How predictable.
Oh, how is Lt Worf’s volunteer effort going?
And what might the CIA be up to with the Speaker being out of the news almost completely now?
This is just going to get uglier.
Bear1909 out
No surprise here. Why should they give up entitlements that they already are owed due to the “oppression” they have suffered and endured being forced to live under the oppression of our capitalist society!
Sarc?
The business will likely be billed for it whether or not they provide it. That is one of the many underlying problems here. Government regulation of the private sector will hold the power and control while any business that chooses to remain open here will be forced to deal with the government on governmental terms no matter what they want or need in reality. Think Amtrak, banking industry, auto industry, DMV, Post office, medicare/medicaid, Social Security … has the government ever had any success in business or simply poured good money down the drain chasing bad money? When the government takes control we will all lose. The doctors will most likely be under very similar circumstances unless they have a skill that is in great demand in the “private sector” reserved for the rich and well-to-do royalty of the day!
I am far from retirement age and I doubt I will ever see any retirement package when I do get there but I have lived here in the Philippines since 2004. I make a living doing my writing, make substantially less than I would have to earn to pay taxes, much less pay for all of these quasi-socialist programs that our government wants to shove down our throats and still manage a fairly decent life.
Viva San Mig Pilsen!
How much simpler would the answer be if government had no part in the answer? Here’s my solution: just like anything else, if you want it, then pay for it. It’s a revolutionary concept, I know, but when did we get the idea that health care was a right? A person can either use their own money to buy a boat, a college education, or true health insurance (with deductibles and premiums, not “free health care”). This is the fairest, most ethical, and cost-effective solution. Here’s why: 1) Currently, for any headache or cough, a person will automatically run to the doctor. Why not? Someone else is flipping the bill. This is overburdening our system and degrades everyone’s quality of care. If you wish to see the doctor, then pay the deductible. 2) The doctor will recommend two options: the 5-cent pill, which works about 20% of the time, and the $50-pill, which works 95% of the time for 12 hours longer. Because someone else is flipping the bill, why not just go for the $50-pill? So long as someone else is always paying the bill, the drug companies have the ability to charge whatever they want.
Imagine if we viewed auto care the same way most folks view health care: Instead of replacing spark plugs, most folks would ask for a new engine; or instead of replacing break pads, folks would just get all new brakes, all because someone else was flipping the bill. Just imagine how much auto parts would cost in such a scenario.
“Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest.” Proverbs 6:6-8
Also, just for a goof, I’d like for anyone to show me where in the United States Constitution that the federal government has the power or mandate to provide health care to anyone besides its employees. How about we start with that before we even consider whether or not this is a “good idea” or not? At this point the “good idea fairy” needs to be shot.
Then again, I’d like for someone to also show me where there’s a provision under the Enumerated Powers (Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution) for the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of Education, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, Department of Labor, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Medicare, Medicaid, the Social Security Administration…
I like Send_Me (#48)’s comments. If a mandatory (one must have) health care provision goes effect, I’m going to protest and defy and sue. There is nothing in the Constitution that allows for that sort of requrement.
I have seen socialized medicine in the military, both as a dependent and as myself. While I understand it is very good to excellent for traumatic care, for day to day stuff it is a pain in the rear end. I can’t imagine that a larger federal program would or could be any better.
Given a choice between cheaper health care and cheaper government, I’d take cheaper government every time. That’s because less expensive government means smaller government with greater liberty and lower taxes.
But every dollar I’d “save” with government run health care would just mean another dollar (plus overhead) I’d have to give to the government to manage the health care system. It would also mean less freedom of choice.
Does anyone believe we would not see the same blatant cronyism with government run health care that we see with other publicly run companies like Fannie and Freddie?
I’ll jump in with everyone else. That IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S DECISION TO MAKE! IT is up to the person, their family, and doctors, AND their ability to pay or get charitable contributions.
Health care is NOT a right.
…but it clearly is one that Obama wants to control. And his sickening administration is over populated with those such as himself:
Bankrupt and void of a moral compass.
Too true.
Barack’s plan:
Public health care for thee, but not for me.
I went to my local ABC affiliate and joined a group or protesters to decry the loss of journalistic integrity by ABC and to try to make our leaders see that the voters do not want government health care. Anyone else do the same?
I prefer action over words. I wish more had joined us.
I have been treated in state-run Russian hospitals. Somehow I survived. I wouldn’t wish that experience on anyone.
This rush to nationalized medicine is insane! The promises made by Obama and his minions are ludicrous! Imagine the worst aspects of veterans hospitals, the post office, the DMV and the IRS and you begin to get the picture of what nationalized medicine will look like.
And they don’t even have a plan yet. Didn’t we get enough of that with TARP and all the other bailouts? NOW IS NOT THE TIME!
He is going to ram this monstrosity through no matter what we say or how we feel. He has been pushing through so much crap so fast & no one seems able to stop him or even slow him down. We are so scr*wed.
I work on a Government facility. There’s six books that tell how to keep airport runway lights maintained. There’s even a book that tells how to write those books, for cryin’ out loud!
So do the rest of us. But we’ve seen in other Socialist Governments, the elites ALWAYS leave themselves options the the rest of us poor crawling worms don’t have.
Each of you, in one wat or another addressed my post #19, I will do my best to respond.
The question of course was an exaggerration for effect and a take off of the question asked by the woman whose Mom had a pacemaker. There was a concern that difficult questions would not be asked. Difficult questions were asked, and they were poorly answered.
Recall that one of the questions from post #17 was, “How is the decision made?” It was a question for Pres Obama. It was sort of asked, and somewhat dodged. My position, and answer, is an economic one. Aside from the emotional aspects of doing, or not doing, an operation, is subject to a cost benefit analysis. Yep, nasty business.
And, yes despite veiled threats, decisions have to made. Tough decisions are always made, and that is why that woman wanted to know what Pres Obama’s veiw is on the subject.
Focusing on the word ‘we’? Uhhh boy. It is the language and not an indictment of everyone. Maybe I should have said, ‘is six million’ and not have used ‘we’.
Determining who lives and who dies happens every day. Equally insidious is every day it is determined what medicine, treatment, or test will be performed and paid for. Insurance companies are doing exactly that, right now. Depending on your insurance policy a transplant might be considered experimental and not paid for.
Yes, the six million dollar figure was an exaggerration for effect. The woman did say that the pacemaker cost $30,000. The figure I used was an attention getter. That kind of figure tends to focus the mind.
Steve Hawkin, me, you, everyone is subject to the same benefit cost analysis. Insurance companies are already doing it. Actuarial tables exist that value each of us.
I avoid addressing any arguement that includes the mention of Nazis. As for Oregon, yes the pie is only so big and the unfortunate reality is that no insurance program, private or public, can afford to provide medical services to everyone. Yes, people will die, and that is a part of life.
Businesses get billed anyway? Yep, that should be part of the discussion and we should have an answer. The Republican leadership are the only ones who can ask these questions in a forum that will compell a response. The devil is in the details, and producing pamphlets as a response to this issue, without numbers, does not advance the issue, or our knowledge.
There are many question that have to be asked and that is part of MMs concern. It is too easy to be dismissive and call what happened an ‘infomercial’. It is entertaining and funny, but it does not advance what we will know about what the plan will be, or not be.
Serious and complicated questions have to be asked. Is money spent for this, and not this? Who decides? Businesses opting out, what then? Will there be co-pays?
My asking the question I did, is just a question. Asking a question does not necessarily mean a position is supported. A question is the search for knowledge and understanding so that a position might be taken. Before we go forward, or not, on this issue, everyone’s questions should be addressed.
zyzzyg,
I understand your points. However, you are missing the bigger question. Do you want a government bureaucracy, with NO OTHER OPTIONS to make your health care decisions?
Just exactly WHY are you compelled to ask such an absurd question in the first place?
Individuals, and the families of those individuals, determine to what degree they want healthcare procedures.
Why are there so many that look at this as an issue that should be regulated by an agency that has proved that it can do NOTHING in the best interest of ANY individual?
Last time I looked, there was not a sea of humanity flowing out of any health clinic that were denied care…so why fix something that is NOT broken, and at a time when THERE IS NO MONEY TO FUND IT?
Once upon a time, and not really that long ago, any kind of government assistance or welfare was regarded as temporary during a time of personal crisis and loss, and also was accepted with a lot of humility.
But now? Hoards are lining up at the trough, with no respect for themselves, to accept a handout from a government, that comes at the great expense of a shrinking population of those who support it. Is there no shame anymore?
And to anyone willing to step right into this pile of manure…just where do you think the money will come from to provide care to a growing mass of humanity that won’t have the resources to fund it?
Many will say that the poor economy is forcing them into supporting Obamacare. Well, I ask this – If our government were not so enormously bloated and required to operate at a cost that prohibits any kind of economic growth to support it, don’tcha think that there is a problem here?
It’s mind-boggling to see the ignorance of so many these days.
jangar #63
I agree!
I believe you have hit the crux of the problem here. In the same way that TARP money was handed out without any oversight in place, the administration wants to shove another UN-wanted, UN-needed, UN-defined and UN-explained program down our throats and work out the details once the control is in place when we the people no longer have any say in the matter.
If they would define a plan, a course of action and allow the people to decide, it may not be so bad … especially if both sides of the argument were presented. It is the history of our government (more so here recently) to recklessly pass bills and expenditures with no accountability and no way for we the people to have our voice heard that is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this entire farce.
The republican party has clearly demonstrated its lack of testicular fortitude and inability or unwillingness to do anything for the Conservative base so that is not much more of an option to consider with any hopes of success. Your point about the debate actually allowing these tough-questions is not without merit but it does not offer any solutions. Unfortunately, with no real options, this will very likely be shoved down our throats and only later will anyone in a position of authority question it … or try to straighten it out … at the risk of their careers based on what we are seeing now.
The problem I have with the entire issue is the way things are being done before being thought out. It is akin to running through a minefield with one’s eyes closed in hopes that not seeing the mine will prevent it from going off. Unfortunately, I think the only possible outcome with this is that it will blow up in our collective faces and while the individual blasts may not be fatal by themselves, the cumulative impact will be.
Just my two cents for what it’s worth.
Correct.
You beat me to it.
Kudos to you.
It is dangerous, evil clowns with exactly that mindset and worldview who will be making decisions about others’ healthcare – i.e., exercising tremendous, tyrannical, unelected power over others….mainly because they think they are so goddamned much smarter than the rest of us.
It is not their decision to make!
Exactly. (No pun intended, I’m sure.)
Not an inappropriate metaphor.
The idiocy of Obama demanding we institute nationalized health care when he doesn’t even have a plan is beyond belief.
The fact that the GOP isn’t raising holy hell about such stupidity is just more evidence that the GOP has abandoned any pretense of being a conservative party.
And this is just another reason why I am not a Republican any longer. The Democrats are Marxists and the GOP are for the most part socialists. It is time for a new conservative party. These scoundrels won’t be in office in 2010 if we all vote for someone else!
VERY SIGNIFICANT
After all of the hype and self-promotion by ABC, what was the coverage of this momentus “Town Hall” this morning on GMA? Nada, nichts, niemals, nothing……deafening silence.
He blew it and they know it. Concentrate on Mark Sanford and hope like hell people forget his pitiful performance. ABC plan of the day.
I have never seen an event that hyped just disappear overnight.
Barry Hussein Khomeini Copperfield Soetoro = Islamic Illusionist
zyzzyg suggests a cost-benefit analysis for treatment. Most people see that as “you’re too old”, but what if we look at it based on income potential. The welfare recipient will contribute nothing to the GDP, therefore, the amount we’d be willing to spend on him would be a fraction of what we’d spend on the average working citizen.
It’s all a matter of perspective. Can you see the Dems agreeing to the situation I just mentioned? Once their plan is in place, all it will take is a memo from the healthcare czar. No Congressional oversight or approval required. Universal health care has the potential to be the framework for all future discrimination and social engineering, even eugenics.
Zmeister overlooks an important aspect of “cost/benefit.” The really important aspect is that I get to run my own “cost/benefit” now and can choose to pay for my own medical care if my insurance won’t cover a treatment.
Eventually, in a nationalized health care system, that won’t be possible. Remember Hillary-care where you and a doctor could go to jail for breaking the rules and trying to pay for your own health care? Does anyone think Obama’s plan will give us more freedom than we have now?
Are you ready to turn over the “cost/benefit” analysis to the Post Office or the DMV? Of course not!
Why is it that the Democrat battle cry for abortion and so many other issues is “KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY BODY” but when it comes to health care they want to put the government directly in control of MY BODY?
It is dangerous, evil clowns with exactly that mindset and worldview who will be making decisions about others’ healthcare – i.e., exercising tremendous, tyrannical, unelected power over others….mainly because they think they are so goddamned much smarter than the rest of us.
It is not their decision to make!
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Well while that is nice and all, warm and fuzzy and all to think only I make decisions for me, that is not reality. It is not reality in many different ways and in many different areas.
To put that right back on you and the value that only I “should” be making those decisions, when a family decides to spend an enormous amount of money on grandpa’s needless surgery they are deciding and forcing YOU to pay for it.
So as a conservative you feel its okay that your money is taken away from you without any input in the decision to spend your money? I am a pro-life conservative. I do not want my money to be taken from me to pay for abortions. Isn’t the decision to have a medical procedure, murder or not murder, the woman’s? Isn’t my objection that I am being forced to pay for something that I object to?
Why yes it is.
I object to my money being spent on grandpa’s unnecessary surgery.
IF grandpa has a bazillion dollars and can pay for it, his family pay for it, okay, none of my business.
But when its MY money, I object to it being wasted on unnecessary medical testing, unnecessary medical procedures.
And yes, I can tell when it is unnecessary as sometimes it is obvious. It isn’t as hard as those who want to be all upset about it make it out to be.
Sometimes yes it is. The premature infant can be one of those tough ones. But not always. You have a premie with microencephaly and the family wants to do everything possible to keep it alive? Why? For the infant’s good? Of course not.
We spend a lot of money in health care that to keep family members isolated from the pain of death and loss.
Decisions about all sorts of things including your safety, your health care, you finances, things that impact your life a great deal are being made constantly without you having any say at all. We control very very little of our lives.
There is a reason why dependence on a loving caring participatory God matters in my day to day living. Who God is and why we need Him is not just theology. He and dependence on Him is day to day, moment by moment life.
So get all worked up and angry about so and so making decisions for your health care if you want. The premise one operates from to object as several have is flawed on many levels. Many of those levels are founded on conservative ideas.
That’s been my experience as well. I challenge anyone who wants to see universal health care to join the military for a time. If you want the snapshot version, then visit a pharmacy at any Army hospital. Just think DMV.
Yep. Didn’t vote for Obama? No healthcare for you!
Old and infirm? No healthcare for you!
A conservative Christian? No healthcare for you! (But we will sterilize you dangerous breeders!)
A prenatal diagnosis that’s unfavorable? No life for you!
Genetic testing shows a predisposition for X disease? No healthcare for you!
It’s like the Soup Nazi, only deadly unfunny.
“no one is talking about the TORT.”
That’s right. Until TORT reform, and I mean serious tort reform is on the table this is not about controlling the cost of health care.
Given the trial lawyers own the DNC, won’t happen without tort reform being pushed by conservatives and the people getting behind it.
“No healthcare for you!”
Sorry but you are doing the same thing the left who wants socialized medicine is doing.
Health insurance equals health care so just exchange the terms as if they mean the same thing.
So 45 million people without health insurance have no health care. Isn’t that awful! How in America can we let so many people go without health care? We can’t so the government will fix it.
Health care and health insurance are not the same.
Thanks for the lecture, Dad.
I am well aware, and have been for decades, of the fact that we do not ourselves alone control every aspect of our lives.
And I believe I have a reasonable understanding of how insurance works.
Stating the obvious, that we do not live in a perfect world, is hardly a reason not to resist, and ultimately permamnently prevent, government-run healthcare.
Why make things worse – terribly worse – by accepting government-run healthcare?
So…what was your point?
Should we just bend over and accept government-run healthcare?
“Just think DMV.”
You don’t have to stretch your imagination. We already have a single payer plan that is quite large to evaluation. Medicare.
Doesn’t take much digging into Medicare to start banging your head against the wall. Tons of criminal over charges, scams, etc.
The double speak is what gets some of us in the industry looking for a cliff to jump off.
Obama wants to lower Medicare reimbursements AGAIN. Reimbursements continue get lowered and were so just last year on many services and fee repayments. One of the reasons we don’t have enough people to take care of the big us, the proverbial we, in the health care industry is salaries are dropping and work, liability, etc., all going up. Doctors, nurses, physical therapist, pharmacist, nursing assistants, lab techs, x-ray techs, etc., are smart enough to know when a job sucks and you aren’t getting paid enough. So we leave the health care industry. There are less folks working in it then need to be.
So Obama wants to make one of the main reasons why there aren’t enough folks in health care to do the work of health care appropriately WORSE. He wants to cut payments again AND he wants to increase the number of people needing services from the less and less number of folks delivering services.
A private sector for payment does not fix this problem by the way. Medicare rules the roost folks. One reason why on many levels we already have a single payer system. If Medicare ways we are going to pay %25 less, private reimbursement generally follows Medicare guidelines for both payment and the criteria needing to be met for delivery of service and payment.
Its insane. Simply insane.
Is there anyone left in DC that will challenge the contitutionality of any current government program?
“Thanks for the lecture, Dad.”
You are welcome son.
If you understand my point, why are you asking me questions, and not supporting the notion that Pres Obama be asked these questions until we get a good solid answer? The small, medium, and bigger questions are for Pres Obama to answer.
No matter, that was mostly rhetorical.
You asked me a question, and my answer is –
I would like to have healthcare. And no, I do not want a Government bureaucracy, nor do I want a Large Insurance Company, making healthcare decisions for me. I’d like to have options.
Now, the truly bigger question (for Pres Obama to answer), among many smaller and medium questions is, can it be done, how will it be done, and what will it cost.
“So…what was your point?
Should we just bend over and accept government-run healthcare?”
My point is to get educated about how health care actually works and get excited and passionate about real things, not pretend straw man things.
Your question reflects that very point. We already have government run health care. Wake up. Medicare rules and regs run the thing now whether directly or indirectly.
The straw man argument about some evil empire darth vader making decisions in Obama’s dark shadow are as absurd as when the left wants to paint decisions being made by private health care insurance holders as if those decisions are being made by a money greedy executive tanning in the Bahamas.
The strategy to paint some god-awful scenario first, true or not, so that the scenario will drum up passions and stir up anger is what the likes of Huffington Post does folks.
“I’d like to have options.”
You have options. You always have options.
What you want is to have options and not have to pay, or not pay in full, for them out of your own pocket…..
Yes?
And, he GETS better than you get…ALWAYS.
There is only one way to fix health care: FREE MARKET CAPITALISM.
“…how will it be done, and what will it cost.”
How are those still questions for you? Those questions have been answered quite clearly for the last 2 weeks.
The answers are astounding including who the government actually will cover and how many folks are not covered and what covering even the folks currently being planned to be covered cost.
The reason Obama is in trouble on this thing is because the questions HAVE been answered.
So what are you asking?
Again with the problem though … the questions remain, no answers are forthcoming and the pressure is on to pass the bill anyhow … and with our un-representative congress critters, is very likely to pass whether or not they have time to read it or any answers are ever given.
Even with the few possibilities left at the ballot box, a lot of damage could still be done in the next year and one-half. So therefore, the question should become how can we prevent this from happening … if there is a way to do it?
(No, I do not have any viable solutions. If I did I would share them! That is why I am asking)
I agree with the theme of your post.
We need answers before we go down this road. Pres Obama has to answer these and many other tough questions. A detailed plan must be presented so that it might be reveiwed and commented on.
When need to perform ‘what if’ scenarios. We need to know if the plan will pay for pacemakers for everyone aged 95 and over, we need to know if smokers will get lung transplants, if alcoholics get liver transplants, if fat people will get kidney tranplants, and . . . where are we going to get all these organs from.
Your two cents is far more valuable than you might imagine.