On August 27th, 2009 at 1:36 am, lgm said:

In other words, it’s not a democracy if your candidate doesn’t win. You’re so sure you’re right that the only way people could disagree with you is that they are stupid or corrupt.

…what emjem24 said. The only thing I would add is that we live in a republic – not a democracy. That means that we are governed by laws and not by polls. Both of the entrenched political parties (the only ones whose candidates have a real chance of winning, barring exceptions) do not concern themselves with the law. They wouldn’t be able to get away with it if the electorate was properly informed and educated. You mentioned the “stupid and corrupt”, but you left out the largest group, by far: the uneducated, uninformed, well-intentioned, misguided citizen. The Federal government has systematically stripped the citizen from this knowledge. How? The public education system. lgm, government is like fire. It naturally seeks to grow beyond bounds. Fire in the fireplace and on the stove is a useful tool; So is government in its rightful use …but left unchecked and unattended, government, like fire, will expand to consume everything. The citizenry must keep vigil on the government to make sure it doesn’t get out of control. The people running the government have a natural bias, if not an active agenda, to remove these checks preventing it from expanding. One of the best ways to do this, they’ve found, is to erode the public’s knowledge of the origins of this nation: why it was created, what abuses occurred that led to its founding, why the Constitution was worded so carefully and succinctly, the intent of the Founders (the Federalist Papers), why we fought a war over this against the world’s super power and how we won, the biographies of the Founders and other principal players, etc… I don’t know about you, but my public school experience didn’t include much of this at all. I grew up hearing about FDR’s New Deal and all of the “alphabet-soup” agencies that he created. They taught us about Johnson’s “Great Society” and “War on Poverty”. The curriculum was a steady diet of the ebb and flow of the struggle of the Republicans versus the Democrats. It was a “floating standard” rather than a “fixed anchor” that misdirected our minds away from the transcendent principles by which this nation was founded. As a people, we’ve lost our way. We don’t know if a bill, law, tax, candidate, etc. is good, bad, or in-between. We don’t have a measuring stick or scales to decide; Actually, we do have these tools, we’ve just not been taught about them. Here’s an example of this: You’ve probably heard about the so-called art Piss Christ. Most people were upset by this, and especially since it was funded by the National Endowment for the Arts (i.e. the taxpayers). I remember the debate. Everyone was talking about how the NEA should or shouldn’t fund this art. No one ever stopped to ask the question: Should the Federal government be funding art, AT ALL?? Nowhere in the Constitution does it authorize this function. Is it a good thing to do – for the taxpayer to fund art? Maybe – maybe not, but that’s what the amendment process is for. We should permit no behavior by the Federal government that is not explicitly authorized by the Constitution. We should measure the Federals’ actions by whether it is legal, not by if it makes us feel good. Once we opened the door to allow Uncle Sam to help someone by unconstitutional means, it set the precedent allowing him to do bad or sneaky things. Thomas Jefferson said, “In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.”

So I don’t believe that most people are corrupt or stupid who disagree with me. I’ve made a lot of mistakes (many embarrassing) as I’m sure you have. I don’t have all knowledge and wisdom. I do have faith in what the Founders set out to do. This gives me a fixed point of reference by which to make judgments of what goes on in our government. Believers in the two party system have no such point of reference. Each side feels secure if their party is currently in power. Never mind what the parties are doing, just that they’re calling the shots. Each side takes credit for “good” things that happen while blaming the other for the “bad”. It’s like we’re fighting for control of a boat that’s about to go over a waterfall. The answer is not getting control of the helm. The answer is getting to solid ground.

lgm said:

Nobody would have let them in if they didn’t have a legal right to be there.

So, they were shareholders too, right? Did they also have a legal right to harass those people and interrupt/shut down the meeting as well? Did these people have a right to harass these bankers’ families and children as well?

Sorry, but these people don’t have the right to disrupt people’s lives or tear them apart because they’re a convenient scapegoat.

In other words, it’s not a democracy if your candidate doesn’t win. You’re so sure you’re right that the only way people could disagree with you is that they are stupid or corrupt.

You, again, are seeing something entirely different from what Jet Jaguar was discussing. We live in a two-party system where there are no choices. They are two halves of the same coin. That is not how a functional democracy works.

Yet, it’s alright for the likes of Ted Kennedy to deny the voters’ right to decide who replaces him in a special election, right? Is it a democracy when so few vote, are educated enough to know what their role is as a voter, or even care enough to educate themselves on the issues facing this country?

I have seen a lot of apathy in this country and I’m in my 30′s. Many Americans take their vote for granted, or don’t care, or feel so disenfranchised that Washington is now getting to decide what our health care will look like even though we’ve said we don’t support it.

In anybody’s eyes, when you have two political parties very similar, and start to morph into one party, then there is no longer a healthy democracy. It’s a sham, and a lie.

So, yes, if you’re not interested in educating yourself in an active democracy, exercising your role as a voter, or can’t look past one party to see what else is out there (and I’ve recently done this because both parties stink) then, yeah, you’re stupid. If you only vote based on which politician keeps you on the gravy train at the expense of the country at large (stay on welfare vs. the rights of taxpayers) then yeah, you’re corrupt.

Our democracy is a joke. I’ve seen people survive just to vote in places like Iraq or Afghanistan only to see voters in this country treat elections like it’s idol worship or it’s more like a banana republic with voter fraud and intimidation.

So, when an Iraqi or Afghani shame us into seeing our democracy as something that isn’t functioning fully or honestly, then you know you got problems. Big ones.

lgm said:

Actually, medicare is more efficient than private insurance — if you look at studies. You should read Krugman on this. People insist that private has to be better than public, but that’s not our experience. Some public stuff is bad, some private stuff is bad.

Please cite your assertions and do not use Krugman who’s so far left he’s bumping up against Lenin. Private is better than public. Seeing as you won’t even address Tricare I will. As a military spouse, I’ve found there to be waiting lists for just basic medications. I had no problem going to Walmart or any PRIVATE pharmacy to go get them without waiting.

Theory is all well and good, until it doesn’t work in real life. How is medicare efficient and where is the evidence? Where is the accountability and auditing of all the fraud, waste, and abuse going on? Why is there such a long wait for our vets to get their claims processed by the VA? Why does Tricare tell me how they’ll treat me, even if the treatment (such as medication) has already been proven unreliable?

I’ve become acquainted with many charlatans in the Tricare system that were military and non-military doctors and with their very own Doctor degrees. I’ve found many to be incompetent, not willing to think outside the box, or address what’s really going on.

Why is it that Tricare has to refer out many military members and their families to civilian providers for advanced care? If it hadn’t been for one of those evil private providers, a kidney infection could have gone undiagnosed and landed me in REAL TROUBLE.

Tricare is really good at referring out patients they’re not prepared to handle. It is a system caught up in inefficiency, waste, and incompetence. And it’s getting worse. I just transferred back to one of the worst Tricare regions (Tricare West) where they can’t handle their load of patients. I found out first hand when I requested a female doctor but the popular one isn’t taking any more patients and the one without a bedside manner (comments by patients to the Tricare rep) is the only one I get. But there are plenty of male doctors. Um, no.

I’ve also been told that if I ever have a baby, I have to go to Fort Carson Army Post. There are many great hospitals in Colorado Springs, CO but Fort Carson isn’t one of them. I have not heard great things about this facility and unless something earth-shattering has changed like hiring more qualified doctors, my options are limited.

Why is that? Why are so many, under government care NOW, have so many limits on their healthcare? Why is it a struggle to receive decent care under Tricare while my diabetic mother’s drugs, care, doctors are all covered under one plan?

Why?

I’ve never said that private was perfect but it’s saved me in a pinch and got stiffed for it by Tricare. Tricare (and it’s ally UnitedConcordia) are very good at saying what they provide until they change the conditions, the timetables, the restrictions for the UPMTEENTH time because they don’t really practice what they preach.

So no, this some public stuff bad, some private stuff bad doesn’t wash. You don’t live it. I straddle both systems as a military spouse and one system (private) has their sh!t together more than public (Tricare) ever will.

When someone you love is told where they can have a procedure and they can’t even tell why that is, there is something deeply wrong. Until people actually study how military health care works and how its dysfunctionality disrupts overall PROVIDED care, you and Krugman miss the bigger picture.

Studies can also have a limited focus, parameter, aim, or strategy so no, I won’t be taking your word for it. Until you’ve actually lived in MY world, not the make believe one where the government can efficiently run everything without screwing something up, you have no concept of what’s going on. Academic, disembodied studies only give one impression. You just don’t want to see beyond the narrow spectrum of that view.

Our private health care system gives people options that government run systems like the VA, Tricare, and Medicare/Medicaid cannot. Fraud, waste, and abuse haunt all these programs but…

Actually, medicare is more efficient than private insurance — if you look at studies. You should read Krugman on this. People insist that private has to be better than public, but that’s not our experience. Some public stuff is bad, some private stuff is bad.

Jet Jaguar said (#20):

Yes it is a bad thing. They were intruding. They weren’t invited. They didn’t belong. They should have been arrested.

Nobody would have let them in if they didn’t have a legal right to be there.

I do vote, lgm. None of my favored candidates come close to winning. Instead, a fraternity of career politicians – Republicans AND Democrats – are colluding to ruin this country.

In other words, it’s not a democracy if your candidate doesn’t win. You’re so sure you’re right that the only way people could disagree with you is that they are stupid or corrupt.

On August 26th, 2009 at 8:55 pm, TigerLady said:

Jet, you’re talking to a brick wall. Thick as brick wall.

TigerLady, I know. I just had to respond, though, for my own edification, at least. The one good thing lgm is good for is to sharpen responses to leftist idiots. I don’t doubt that he’s good in mathematics, but in common sense, he’s extremely immature. I pity lgm. He obviously suffers from Asperger’s syndrome. He’s probably endured ridicule his entire life. I am hard on him, but I pray for his salvation.

On August 26th, 2009 at 4:25 pm, lgm said:

Marks and his yellow-T-shirted followers have swarmed shareholders’ meetings with enough force to shut them down.

Is that a bad thing?

Yes it is a bad thing. They were intruding. They weren’t invited. They didn’t belong. They should have been arrested.

Jet Jaguar said (#14):

Taxation without representation!

Want representation, vote. Want to be taken seriously, be serious. Don’t pretend this is 1775.

I do vote, lgm. None of my favored candidates come close to winning. Instead, a fraternity of career politicians – Republicans AND Democrats – are colluding to ruin this country. Most have good intentions but are misguided at best. Some have been given over to evil and manipulate the naive do-gooders.

Our Federal government is filled with unconstitutional appointees, lackeys, czars, and thugs that operate without direct taxpayer accountability. These people transcend administrations and sessions of Congress. These Bruce Marks types exemplify this. The same kinds of concerns in 1775 are with us today, lgm. Times change, people don’t. You are one of those that dismisses the past as irrelevant to the present. Only fools hold this position. This generation is no more enlightened than any other. You are on the road to destruction. Keep going the way you are and find out.

1. It’s not black Americans’ (and other segments) fault that they’re born into poverty, come from broken homes, don’t graduate from high school, and perpetuate a life of crime and prison time. Let’s give them welfare and make them dependent for life on the taxpayer dime.

**** Is it so wrong to ask these people to work for these benefits independent of US citizenship (except the illegals of course)?

2. It’s not their fault that they bought too much house. We need to go after those evil mortgage lenders and banks that knowingly gave loans to morally and financially bankrupt people. Let’s help ‘em out to save the subprime market. It’s for the kids.

**** Everybody should be held accountable for their actions. Should these homeowners keep their homes even though they knowingly bought homes they couldn’t in this lifetime afford? As Obummer has already demonstrated, the homeowner assistance program doesn’t work for anybody so the market will work instead.

3. It’s not the fault of the public schools, teachers, administrators, state governments, and federal government that our kids are undereducated and underprepared for life. We just don’t tax Americans enough for the privilige of being illiterate and bad at Math, History, Science, Language Arts, and real life. So let’s perpetuate an entitlement mentality and keep pouring in money for teachers that don’t teach/care, kids that don’t learn so we can continue to pat ourselves on the back.

***** Why can’t an overly bureaucratic, bloated, and inefficient system be accountable and audited like every other part of the government? Where are those tax dollars going?

4. Finally, the sacred cow of American politics- universal health care. Our private health care system gives people options that government run systems like the VA, Tricare, and Medicare/Medicaid cannot. Fraud, waste, and abuse haunt all these programs but we need to better them now by making all people suffer under an NHS, Canada Care inspired shell game. Let’s not deal with the existing problems but rather wish them away under a new, dysfunctional health care system.

**** Why does the federal government have to create new problems based on old problems they couldn’t solve? Where is the common sense in all this? Instead of the overly emotional hyperbole of the DeathCare supporters are we not examining the current ways to improve and get a handle on current deficiencies in our health care system?

There’s a pattern to all these guilt trippers’ behavior like NACA’s, Bruce Mark’s, liberal activists, and the federal government’s. Passing the blame is better than actually coming up with the answer, isn’t it?

And the world will shrug even more and hummm…

On August 26th, 2009 at 4:25 pm, lgm said:

Marks and his yellow-T-shirted followers have swarmed shareholders’ meetings with enough force to shut them down.

Is that a bad thing?

Yes, it is. If you don’t think so, let us know the next time you have a professional presentation to make, and we’ll come demonstrate why…

…I’m sorry. I lost my head. lgm making a “professional presentation!” Not likely, is it?

ECS

Marks and his yellow-T-shirted followers have swarmed shareholders’ meetings with enough force to shut them down.

Is that a bad thing?

Jet Jaguar said (#14):

Taxation without representation!

Want representation, vote. Want to be taken seriously, be serious. Don’t pretend this is 1775.

As for the topic: unfortunately, my senators are democrats, so I am screwed until we can vote those idiots out–if that is possible here in Illinois.