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1. #101
   On September 7th, 2009 at 11:18 am, Roland said:

   On September 7th, 2009 at 7:31 am, conservative in europe said:

   …. If we had sided with the Nazis (in 1939/40, that was a real possibility) England would have fallen within weeks. ….

   Just for the record, although there was strong support for staying out the war, there was absolutely no possibility we would side with the Nazis. That sounds like you may be picking up some variation on the irrational, history rewriting America bashing meme so popular now in Europe.

2. #102
   On September 7th, 2009 at 11:18 am, sonofdy said:

   Do I have free speech rights or not?

   Answer:

   Apparantly not.

3. #103
   On September 7th, 2009 at 12:45 pm, conservative in europe said:

   Roland,

   I respectfully disagree. Check your history. The Communist party was very popular in the US in the 1930′s and many of those opposed to it saw the Nazi ideas as the only way against it. This was before the evils of Nazism were realized.

   Henry Ford was one of many preeminent Americans who supported Hitler at one time..

4. #104
   On September 7th, 2009 at 1:04 pm, Roland said:

   Just because ‘many’ in the US supported the Nazi’s as opponents to Communism does not mean there was any actual real world chance those people would end up determining our policy.

   Also with respect, Conservative, the historical view there was any chance at all we would have come in on the side of Germany is America bashing rewriting of history. It is stunningly upside down.

   We were intensely isolationist. Not crazy. Ford was a brilliant industrialist and a political crackpot.

5. #105
   On September 7th, 2009 at 1:30 pm, conservative in europe said:

   Roland,

   I agree that we were isolationist. That still didn’t stop Roosevelt from doing everything in his power to push us to war against Germany (thus coming to the assistance of the Soviet Union and his good friend Stalin). Stalin and Roosevelt disliked Churchill greatly and visibly cut him out of real negotiations at Yalta. Roosevelt unilaterally started Lend/Lease because he knew it was only a matter of time before the Germans torpedoed a US flag ship.

   The fact is, before September 01, 1939, the Nazis enjoyed wide support in the US.. as well as all over the world. Of course, by 1945, those who supported them in ’39 disavowed that – and rightly so because no one knew the Nazis’ real plan back in ’39.

   Depression Era America was a very different place than you might suppose. Communism, supported heavily by the Union movement, was a real threat to Industrialized America. In the ’30′s, the Nazis were the only real political movement opposing Communism. Like today, America was fairly well polarized. Nazism wasn’t considered evil.

   I know it is disagreeable to consider Americans to be for Nazism, but they were and in a very big way. Up until September ’39, had Roosevelt been cut out of the decision making process, we could have sided with the Germans just as easily. Remember, they declared war on us but we fired the first shots against them – actually at Vichy French in North Africa.

   I’m not saying that we were on the wrong side or anything stupid like that. However,there are historical facts that, because no one wanted to be associated with them by 1945, were glossed over. The 1930′s are an extremely misrepresented era of American politics.

6. #106
   On September 7th, 2009 at 1:51 pm, conservative in europe said:

   pgtips,

   You are absolutely correct about my misquote – Churchill was far more eloquent than I could ever be.

7. #107
   On September 7th, 2009 at 1:55 pm, Roland said:

   Up until September ‘39, had Roosevelt been cut out of the decision making process, we could have sided with the Germans just as easily.

   The ‘pro-Nazi’ argument that had some currency was that we should stay isolationist since we shouldn’t enter the war on the side of Stalin. There was no credible argument for us to enter the war on Germany’s side. Just some crackpots. There are slways crackpots with regard to anything.

   There is a HUGE chasm between saying we should stay out of a war versus saying we might have entered the war on the side we eventually fought against.

   BTW, I wasn’t there, but my Dad was. He worked in Wilkie’s campaign because he knew FDR was lying about keeping us out of the war, and then he fought in the air war over German occupied Europe.

8. #108
   On September 7th, 2009 at 2:03 pm, conservative in europe said:

   I had family over here too.. on both sides. A couple are still MIA.

   I do agree that, put to a vote, we would have just stayed the hell out of the whole thing. It would have been an overwhelming victory. Where we part ways is that I think there were enough powerful people who supported (or at least agreed with the 1930′s ideas of) the Nazis to have had a real effect on our decision making process. We could have gone either way..

   I also don’t think that average Americans had anywhere near the political influence in the 1930′s that we do today.

   Guess we will just have to continue to disagree on this one.

9. #109
   On September 7th, 2009 at 2:16 pm, Roland said:

   Guess we will just have to continue to disagree on this one.

   I agree.

10. #110
    On September 7th, 2009 at 9:35 pm, KVal57 said:

    Hell, it’s obvious how he’s gonna pay for it: He’s gonna sell that pack of hotdogs on the back of his fat head!

11. #111
    On September 8th, 2009 at 7:27 am, Jason L. said:

    Conservative in Europe: I think you are mistaking World War One with World War Two. In World War One, there was the very real possibility that the USA would have and could have sided with the Central Powers, primarily because British Ships were running close to the German Coast under the US Flag, then shelling German Positions. It is said that the US Government between 1914 and 1917 (when we entered World War One) had shifted sides seventeen times, the killer stroke being Germany’s unrestricted U-boat warfare and the Zimmerman Telegraph, the latter an attept to have Mexico declare war on the USA in exchange for Mexico being given the Southwestern USA upon a Central Powers’ Victory.

    The idea that the USA would enter the war on the side of Germany is preposterous, nothwithstanding the influences of Henry Ford and others who were historically anti-Semitic. As far as Roosevelt “pusing” the US of A into war with Germany, that, too, is in error….

12. #112
    On September 9th, 2009 at 4:12 am, conservative in europe said:

    Jason,

    I agree with your assessment of pre-WW1 history. However, I think you should really dig in to the books about 1930′s America.

    The issues were:

    A. The Depression was horrible. People who liken the slowdown we have had over the last year to the Depression are way off base. In the 1930′s, when you were out of work, you starved. There were no savings – cause the banks failed and took your money with them. People were truly desperate. Read the Grapes of Wrath – By all accounts, it’s accuracy is one of the things that makes it so compelling.

    B. The Labor movement had been wallowing along for years. The Depression gave them enough influence to “turn up the heat” as it were..

    C. The idea of Socialism, not completely new but new to the vast majority of Americans (who were, by our standards today, vastly undereducated), was spread quickly and successfully by Roosevelt’s “new” Democrats. The Dems were the Conservatives until Roosevelt (considered a “Traitor to his Class”) changed their direction entirely.

    D. The Rise of the Communist Party in America – was advanced swiftly by Labor, Socialism and the Depression to the point that it could have been a viable candidate in many Congressional and Senatorial races. Most Southern Democrats at the time embraced the idea of Collectivism by calling it “Reform”. The Longs in Louisiana stand out on this but it was common in the pre-war South.

    On the other side of these factors were Conservatives. Usually businessmen but, like today, there was a large “middle class” (it’s really hard to make specific comparisons on what “middle class” meant then and today but – suffice it to say, there were regular folks who didn’t lose their jobs and still held reasonably conservative values.

    As well, there was no internet or even TV. There was no pundit telling people what to think. This was a time when very little political discussion was help beyond the wealthy and educated (both of which were in short supply). The majority, even the middle class, would vote for whomever the organization they were affiliated with told them to. Be it the Union, or the Company, or the Mason’s Lodge or the Grange, People would listen to the “leaders” who were at a much more local level than today.

    So, that’s the background.

    In the 1930′s, Socialism was pervasive and most Conservatives viewed it as a real threat to the American way of life. The problem is, the Depression literally made Conservatives a distinct minority.

    As well, up to the point that Hitler invaded Poland, he was seen as the man that turned Germany around. To put it in modern terms, Germany in 1929 would have been the financial equivalent to modern day Zimbabwe. By 1938, Hitler had made it the most powerful and productive nation on Earth. People recognized this. Although Hitler used the same techniques as Roosevelt’s New Deal, he did it with the mask of being Anti-Communist. Conservative Americans liked that.

    Most importantly, until Kristallnacht in 1938, Hitler’s anti-semetism was known, but shared (because it didn’t make mention of death camps) by the vast majority of White Christians.

    So, you put all this together and, if we were forced to choose sides up to the point of September 01, 1939, and there was no middle ground – one way or another, I believe it was a 50/50 shot.

    History is clouded by the fact that between 1939 and 1945, several truths came out about the Nazis that were unknown previously – Death Camps being amongst them. By 1945, obviously, no one wanted to have ever been associated with or shown support for Nazi Germany. So, a lot of history was simply never taught in school or omitted form the books.

    It wasn’t just Ford, I used him as a quick example – Disney, Errol Flynn and about half of the British Royal Family were known supporters of Hitler before 1939. This doesn’t mean we supported the Holocaust – we didn’t know it would happen.

    One last thing since the thread is dead – FDR absolutely pushed us in to war with Germany. You need to read about his presidency during 1941 and the statements he made to his Cabinet. After the Soviet Union was invaded, he did everything in his power short of making an unprovoked attack on Germany.

    Again, I’m not, by any means saying we should have sided with Germany – absolutely not. I also think that, put to a vote, we would have remained neutral. However, if we were force to choose sides, in 1935-40, we could have gone either way (if the people voted on it).

    I was a history major and the most important thing I learned about research is to look at the books without letting your emotions or rationalization get in the way of what is on the page. We have the advantage of hindsight about 1930′s Germany. Before 1941, Americans didn’t have that advantage.

13. #113
    On September 9th, 2009 at 9:35 am, corona said:

    Hey Michelle, you forgot to mention the innovative cost reduction that will be part of ObamaCare