Report: Rules of engagement led to soldiers’ deaths
NATO-led forces are investigating the death of four Marines in eastern Afghanistan after their commanders reportedly rejected requests for artillery fire in a battle with insurgents, the Pentagon said on Wednesday.
Tuesday’s incident was “under investigation” and details remained unclear, press secretary Geoff Morrell told a news conference.
A McClatchy newspapers’ journalist who witnessed the battle reported that a team of Marine trainers made repeated appeals for air and artillery support after being pinned down by insurgents in the village of Ganjgal in eastern Kunar province.
The U.S. troops had to wait more than an hour for attack helicopters to come to their aid and their appeal for artillery fire was rejected, with commanders citing new rules designed to avoid civilian casualties, the report said.
Morrell said the helicopters were not hampered by any restrictions on air power but had to travel a long distance to reach the Marines at the remote location near the Pakistan border.
“I think that it did take some time for close air support to arrive in this case, but this is not a result of more restrictive conditions in which it can be used,” he said.
“It was the result, as is often the case in Afghanistan, of the fact that there are great distances often between bases where such assets are located and where our troops are out operating.”
Morrell could not confirm whether appeals for artillery fire were denied by commanders.
According to the McClatchy report by Jonathan Landay, the U.S. advisors assisting Afghan forces had been assured before the operation that “air cover would be five minutes away.”
The incident comes after the top commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal, issued new restrictions on the use of military force and air raids in a bid to prevent civilian deaths.
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If this is true (and I hope to God it isn’t), someone needs to be court-martialed and/or shot!
I have a message for our government:
Figure it out, or get out. Stop getting our guys killed senselessly. Screw proportionality.
Artillery fire is very accurate under the proper guidance. This is what happens when pencil pushing bureaucrats get a say in battlefield operations. Sad but predictable with Democrats in charge.
I think I read about this the other day (can’t remember where). At least the story I read said that Afghan women and children were carrying ammo to the insurgents.
Since the battle was taking place in a village, no artillery allowed and helicopters were too far away? What, no jets handy? A couple of A10 Warthogs or Harriers maybe?
This is what happens when politicians and media manage a war.
Either fight to win or get out.
Jeez — bad dream here- Vietnam all over again.
I’m sure this isn’t news to many fighting this war. The rules of engagement have made us fight this war with one arm tied behind our back. It’s being fought not to win, but to put the US in a good light. The attack helicopters were probably delayed so they could be equipped with fliers printed with Miranda rights.
It’s digusting.
If we worried about civilian casualties before considering victory, we would all be speaking German today. Except California; they’d be speaking Japanese instead of Spanish.
Yep.
It sure looks like we have domestic enemies among us.
Now we’re second-guessing our armed forces?
Are you kidding me? Even Vietnam War commanders were able to call on artillery and bombers!
Since there are no uniforms,aren’t they all civillians?
Let the Marines run the war. They know how to fight. If civilians are in the way, then tough. Keep the idiot beauracrats out of the war decisions.
granite said:
Christ — I never ever thought I would see the day this would happen all over again. Whats next – attack this stronghold today but it will be off limits for a week after? Oh wait.
No we are questioning ROE writen in the white house.
There is a difference.
No IDIOT! We are looking at the politico’s involved. But you must spin as you are too stupid to understand.
Amen sonofdy! Like minds and all that.
We have our winner. Yes, they are.
zero will run this war the same way lbj ran the nam war. liberals believe that if we play nice in a fight, the bad guys will also play nice.
Bomb the bastards or GET OUT! Bush had the right idea after all. If you’re not willing to win the war, don’t waste the lives of our military and our tax dollars!
What the hell is this? A kinder, gentler war? You can bet that the enemy hasn’t softened their approach. Heads are still rolling from their side. YOU MORONS!
I really have no idea (though I will guess) as to why the Obama administration is pursuing this conflict. Doesn’t this fly in the face of the whole reaching out and understanding our enemies line? I mean how bad can the Taliban be? They don’t vote Republican and by extension are not racists, so why are we warring against them?
Here is my guess. I think Obama is intent on keeping this conflict going, albeit at a low level, i.e. no intention of winning, because it serves as a bright-shiny object distraction for republicans/conservatives. They will say: “Well, Obama is wrong, terribly so, in his domestic programs but you know, he came around on the whole war-on-terror thing so we will continue to support him,” etc. Obama always thinks in political terms. And the Afghan war (or whatever you wish to call it), in his perception, is useful politically and that is all that matters. I suspect most of his party and the media understand this. Which is why, I predict, he will never get serious about winning this thing. But the deaths that happen are real and that grim fact must never be forgotten.
That is my admittedly cynical assessment and trolls and normal people are free to have at it. I actually hope I’m wrong.
I’m sorry, but I’m finding it harder each day to continue to support our efforts in Afghanistan under the current administration; they’re just too inexperienced.
White House lied!
Troops died!
I’m howling with impotent rage over h.
Same crap as it was in Viet Nam.
How about Court’s Marshall for the Commander-in-Chief, for dereliction of duty, resulting in the deaths of American Marines?
“Dereliction of duty widely refers to failure, through negligence or obstinacy, to perform one’s legal or moral duty to a reasonable expectation.“
I pray for the for Marines and for their famlies. As others here have said, this is looking like VM more every day. These deaths are on the hands of bho and his ‘trying to be nice’ to people who hate our guts and want us ALL killed.
L
S/B four Marines not for in last post.
L
Oh my Gawd. Are we back to calling Lyndon up to get permission to attack?
This is sad. Just like the hold em 24 hours and have to release them to local authorities. This BS.
Off topic MM:
Did anyone see the post office getting approval to cut 4 billon dollars from the retiree fund to keep em afloat??
We are turning into England, a liberal government that does not want to win wars.
If we are not going to fight these Muslims, then pull out.
Nice job Hussein.
Exactly. “Civilian” does not necessarily mean “non-combatant”. But it does play into the peaceniks hand beautifully. I would also check into the background of the author of the report before reaching a conclusion. He might have an agenda as well. And last, but not least, remember that about 80% of initial reports from the front are wrong. Just my 2 cents.
Here is what I see:
Politicians have not learned from the lessons of the restrictive ROE we had in Somali; yet the enemy most certainly has learned. This will only lead to more “human shield” defences set up by the enemy to ensure that we either do not fire back at all or have rising collateral dammage. Either way it is a win win situation for the enemy. They either do not get shot at for fear of collateral damage or they have dead civilians to use as propaganda to get the politicians to worry even more about “America’s international image” (which Obama has constantly said is in need of improvement to gain greater acceptance in the international community). The goal of the enemy will be to try to break America’s will with higher death tolls (they nearly succeeded in Iraq) and this time it looks like they may have the help of these ridiculous ROE.
No one wants civilian casualties (on either the left or the right), but this is war and it is going to happen. Sure you can minimize civilain casualties, which we have done, but you can never completly eliminate them in a war.
The US has not fought to actually Win in a War since 1945. If the Soviets lost in Afghanistan w/o any “ROE”, how can the US Mil possibly hope to do any better w/ far fewer fighting troops – following a ludicrous set of PC ROE? The Afghan “war” effort is on a fast-track to self-inflicted defeat eerily reminiscent of Vietnam.
I said just last night the color of this ‘conflict’ is looking more like Nam by the day. Only thing missing to date are the helicopters and planes sitting on the tarmac carrying out the last of our military while desparate people were trying to board too.
From my armchair, the only reason One didn’t cut and run soon after the election was because he hasn’t a clue what to do with the number of military returning home and their job prospects.
Somebody’s lying.
Just like ‘Nam, bomb the goat path but don’t touch the SAM sites. All expendable for political gain.
I don’t think that they want to learn.
I don’t think that they believe that there are any lessons to be learned.
Our soldiers are merely fodder for the international apologists.
Political correctness has no place in war.
When Obama came into office, and didn’t do thing one on the war for 2 weeks, I remarked to my 7 Y.O. son, “well, Obama is giving up the war.”
My son? His retort was so simple, I wonder why powerful adults don’t have a clue.
He said, “That’s okay, dad. In four years we’ll vote Obama out, and then we’ll fight to win.”
And, I added, “and this time, we’ll bring artillery!”
Then we high fived.
Precisely. War is a dirty, ugly, business. But once you’re in it, you’re in it up to your ass. And you better fight to win. Our adversaries certainly are.
This seems to confirm Michael Yon’s recent observation that a shortage of rotary-wing assets is a severe problem in Afghanistan.
Bottom line is, if artillery is off the table and attack helicopters are an hour away, then you are left with few workable options: you either have to operate in numbers sufficient to hold out with small arms for at least an hour before help arrives, or you have to curtail your field operations to only those you can support with the aviation assets on hand.
Neither of these is being done. Result = four dead Marines who didn’t have to die. There is NO excuse for this.
And as far as killing civilians is concerned, that’s an unfortunate and inevitable by-product of war. If you don’t want to risk civilian casualties, then don’t go to war. Once you’ve committed to fighting, then accept the fact that no matter how hard you try to be careful you’re going to kill some of the innocent along with the enemy, and get on with it.
Besides, even if you don’t kill any civilians, the enemy will accuse you of doing so anyway, and most of the Western media as well as the Domestic Enemy that they serve will reflexively believe it.
War is indeed Hell. If you don’t want civilians getting killed, then do what’s necessary to end the war and they’ll stop dying.
This makes me absolutely furious!!! I, too, remember Nam.
OMG! The Usurper is on tv again!
No other military in the history of the planet has gone to such extreme lengths to avoid collateral damage. Our weapons have unprecedented accuracy. That said, $#!t happens. You cannot completely 100% eliminate casualties to non-combatants. You do your best to avoid them, but get the mission done! Good Grief!
Sounds to me this commander was using Les Aspins play book from 1993 Mogadishu. God help and protect our brave young Men and Women.
My hope is that all future actions begin with air cover from the start.
Any, and all military actions involving search and destroy, include plans that require air cover not be more than five minutes away. There is no reason that fixed wing aircraft cannot be on station, especially the A-10 which is capable of loitering for periods of time, if helicopter gunships are not there.
Yes, there are rules of engagement, but that does mean poor planning should be tolerated.
I feel for the lost lives of our Marines.
As I recall, even before we set a foot in Afganistan and Iraq, “quagmire” was thrown around everywhere by pundits and members of congress. Now quagmire seems like a dirty word that obama is the the pre’sent. Or is it that these same critters are scared to be called RACISTS.
So when will Lyndon Baines Obama write a list of “approved” targets?
As a vet. I say it is time to get out of Afghanistan. What is our goal – exactly?
Get these slimy lawyers out off the battlefield and kill the enemy, if there’s collateral damage so be it. This is war, not a game for Odopo to throw his title as U.S. President around for a losing cause…worthless POS he is anyway.
How all you independents that can’t think 2 feet in front of you and carrying around all this white guilt bs feeling about BHO now, as the country is being flushed down the toilet?
Obama was caught doing the right thing in Somalia by using Vavy Seals over the weekend to assisinate a known terrorist. Obama, stay focused. If McCrystal is a weenie get him out of there.
Navy Seal…
Never have a Democrat on your flank.
As a Vietnam Vet, this just makes me both sick to my stomach, and angry as hell!!
That stinking general needs to have his stars removed and his fat butt placed in a remote Afghan village. Wonder how quick that SOB would be calling in arty and air strikes!
Obama hand picked that idiot.
Roger that.
I finally got around to reading Marcus Luttrell’s “Lone Survivor” and in it, he rips into the media, politicians, and bureacrats far away from the battlefield who come up with ROE that puts guys on the field in danger and ties their hands so they can’t win. It’s a “convicted by 12 or carried by 6″ dilemma that got almost that entire team killed off by the Taliban.
I agree…let the guys in the field do what they must to defend themselves and win.
Pray for the Marines!
Again I ask, without being flippant, the population with the most to lose if the Taliban succeeds (and include Pakistan thereafter) are all the women and girls who will be cast down in a subservient uneducated sex-pet status. Again, where the national and international womens’ organizations to teach these Afghan women what freedoms they haven’t yet tasted but will be snatched away by the caveman religious mentality of Taliban zealots? If all these women had a clue what western-style freedoms they’d be missing, the Taliban would be hard pressed to call anywhere home — certainly not with the wives and sisters they routinely scold and beat back into line, and the job of our people in uniform would be so much less hazardous.
I can’t hear you N.O.W.!
James Greenidge
Queens, NY
But do have them scout ahead and clear any minefields.
radio relay said:
Put em in a hut and have a frag party – I am so angry about this I cannot even type.
Nobody has mentioned this yet but the entire topic is clearly racist.
Just channeling Carter for you all.
Just the thought of having that peanut gobbling half wit in my mind makes me want to fling myself into a wall.
1. You don’t know if this was a result of poor planning.
It’s possible that the rotary wing asset on-station was forced to abort its mission minutes before the need arose and that a ready-1 asset was launched (hence the hour wait).
These commanders might not have the luxury of redundant asset allocation. That doesn’t mean they’re poor planners.
2. Yes, there are ROE. But the ROE might suck.
It’s strange that you decided to blindly accept the ROE while casting blame on the planning.
Actually the current ROE would not have prevented the use of artillery fire to support those Marines. This could be case of misapplication of the ROE, technical issues, environmental issues and/or just bad leadership — in other words, FUBAR. And need I point out that McClatchy can be just as bad as the AP?
This is Tre’s rules of engagement:
When an enemy is spotted, shoot until they stop moving.
At this point, shoot them once more just to be certain. Ammo is cheap.
Collateral damage is terrible, and should be avoided. But, don’t risk your own life to save a civilian who is too stupid to get in the way when bullets are flying.
Is anyone in the Pentagon listening?
While I believe in the Afghanistan “mission,” I don’t understand why we’re further complicating it with these new “rules of engagement.” I had a bad feeling that McChrystal was going to screw things up by playing touchy feely and PC because of his PR concerns. Unfortunately, those fears have been founded. McChrystal is just another general who’d rather be an administrator not a warrior.
What is our mission in Afghanistan anymore? We don’t have enough people to hold ANYTHING. I’ve got a husband in a deployment window, which means he may or may not go. This kind of senseless hand-wringing has lead to the deaths of Marines who needed air support. Where is the freaking common sense that used to guide the military?
My husband has about 3 years left in the military and I’m beginning to think it is real good time to get out. This administration is tinkering with our war footing and how we even conduct war. The Obummer administration and the weasel SecDef are tinkering with military benefits like Tricare and BAH in an effort to be more “fair” when in reality, it further makes military life unattractive.
While I loathed a lot about McCain, at least I know he would’ve been a good Commander-in-Chief unlike the pretender we now have.
This is total BS in it’s purest form. Politicians are getting people killed senselessly by trying to fight politically correct battles. If we are going to fight a war, then fight a frigging war. If NOT, THEN GET THE HELL OUT AND STOP KILLING SOLDIERS FOR NO GOOD REASON. Once again the white house is screwing things up by pressing politically correct ROE on field commanders and tying the hands of our soldiers. This has GOT TO STOP. It is hard enough to win a war in Afghanistan due to logistics, terrain and ethnic complications. If we do not have effective plans to deal with these, we need to GET OUT until we do. If we cannot develop effective plans to deal with these, we need to GET OUT and STAY OUT rather than tie the hands of our fighting men. We have made these mistakes too many times before. Get smart Obama.
McNamara’s ‘limited warfare’ returns to the battlefield.
Lyndon Hussein McNamara Obamachev
Obama is lousing this up to create public sentiment for withdrawal-he creates the problem, and why by cracky, he’s got the solution!
The only problem with withdrawal altogether, is that it will only embolden the jihadis, and will increase the odds they get to detonate a nuke on our soil…and then there will be action-after Americans sacrifice a US city…
No.
Nice try
The issue is the policy forced upon the military by politicians. In this case, the current administration.
So that would make this….
Obama’s fault.
If this is true, investigations MUST take place out find out what POS was responsible for this and they need to be convicted ans shot.
If the troops say they need air or artillery support and are in the middle of a battle. Give it to them.
I we are going to “fight” like this we have lost.
Oh, boy. The thought of Obama even thinking about war makes me gasp for air. He doesn’t give a hoot about our troops and doesn’t know the consequences of the dumb ass ROE he wants there. I’m like you StillOnTheRoad, mad as hell.
Rest In Peace, Marines. Too bad that people dont care nearly as much about the dead women and children though. Just more dead ragheads, right?
What a stupid a$$.
thutmose18 said:
I will borrow AlohaGuys responce –
What an idiodic Jackass to make a statement like that.
Reminds me of Somalia….
….early on, you basically couldn’t chamber a round, until the “Lawyers” in the Pentagon could pour through law books to see if it was OK to shoot back…
I’m a realist and realize that civilians will die in war. It happens, and i know its hard to prevent it. i’m just referring to the lack of caring about those who die.
DesertLover’s Rules of Engagement
1. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
2. Decide to be aggressive enough, quickly enough.
3. Have a plan.
4. Have a back-up plan, because the first one probably won’t work.
5. Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with at least a “4.”
7. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
8. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal preferred.)
9. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
10. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
13. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating your intention to shoot.
What? Who else died? Did I miss something in this report?
Reminds me of too many other places.
This makes me long for the days of Alexander the Great where there were simple “rules of engagement”:
1) Kill the enemy
2) Enslave women and children
3) Conquer the land
Except even with those simple rules, Alexander couldn’t conquer Afghanistan.
My condolences to the families of the soldiers.
It is becoming clear, at least to me, that before Obama leaves office he will apoligise to the world for George Bush having involved the US in the war in Afghanistan.
I am not sure if he will do it before or after he orders a complete withdrawl.
And Somalia – remember a
cesspitplace called Mogadishu?You beat me to it.
I have a son fighting in Helmand Province, Afganistan with the Marines and this made me physically ill.
It wasn’t the ROE that caused the deaths of the four Marines. The ROE specifically states that if a unit cannot safely disengage, then they can use fire support against civilian locations.
It looks like mistakes were made up the chain of command, but it wasn’t the ROE, rather a misapplication of the ROE. Let’s wait for the investigation before we go damning General McChrystal.
It isn’t Vietnam where LBJ had to approve each and every bombing target.
ECS
CPT, AR
US Army (Ret.)
The last sentence of every ROE I ever read ends with, “The right of self-defense is never denied.”
If it is available and you need it, it is your call, so you are self-approved and get it. Screw the “up the chain.” Fire the $(#*%(#% mission.
Cork Soaker, you have got to know by now that I don’t care what you say. I have no respect for you, why do you bother commenting on what I have to say?
You take tangents, don’t answer questions, and offer insults. I have no respect for you.
Cork Soaker, you have got to know by now that I don’t care what you say. I have no respect for you, why do you bother commenting on what I have to say?
You take tangents, don’t answer questions, and offer insults. I have no respect for you.
If this is true, the problem is at least two fold, but it begins and ends with OBAMA.
He IS CIC and the reductions asked for are HIS.
My guess is the ‘advisors’ would NEVER have gone in w/out a guarantee of backup, whether artillery, air or most probably both.
This confusion is the fault of CIC orders. PERIOD.
A non-experienced non-executive non-military commander in chief is a very dangerous person, not to himself but to others.
We may find that others might have some fault as well, but it starts and ends with obama.
You sure RSS doesn’t stand for Real Stupid Son-of-a-two bit, fly eating, no good, neer do well, yellow bellied, two faced, scum sucking, whoremongering, piece of whale feces?
Our government “leadership” has been second-guessing the military for years. It’s not a R thing or a D thing it’s a backbone thing. Libtards have taken the huevos away from the field commanders and worried what the enemy was going to think about how we wage war. You kill enough of the enemy and the “innocent civilians” will surrender.
Oh, and then we win and I have to mourn for fewer of my fellow veterans. What a concept you wonderous waterhead.
We are so proud of our grandson, Marine Sgt. Dan became Staff Sgt. today! He has been to Al Asad x3. Our hearts ache for the men on the ground in Afghanistan fighting for their country while handicapped with its stupid rules. What a disgraceful waste of highly trained men and women – they are fighting a war Obama doesn’t give a damn about. God bless our military and their families who wait at home.
No RDD we are second guessing that fool “O” and his minions. Make that third guessing since he is the first guesser in chief.
Flashback to Lebanon. I was hoping this lesson would not have to be relearned.
*sigh*
Remember… Generals are politicians too. If they TRULY BELIEVED in winning the war, they would be making aggressive recommendations to Obama which include collateral damage. If they did not like the political calls being made that endanger our military lives, they would be leaking the liberal half-assed crap coming from the Pentagon and CENTCOM. Start calling your elected officials and fight for our military, fight to win.
USMCgramma …
Congratulations to your grandson … I sense your pride in him and it is obviously well placed …
Semper Fi
DesertLover
Former SSgt USMC
OBAMA LIED, PEOPLE DIED.
Two words: Overwhelming force!
Two words if above not applied: Get out!
You really are rather stupid aren’t you?
The question here is of the RoE put in place by either the military commanders, or the civilians (Obama’s minions) put in place.
Since the RoE recently changed, with the same Commanders in place, its obvious the civilians changed the RoE.
In the early days of Iraq, you were likely one whining about not having the right equipment in place such as armored Humvee’s or body armor.
In this instance, the equipment was in place, but it could not be used because of civilian decisions.
Which is worse? Not having it in place? or having it in place but choosing not to use it?
Fool.
RepublicanVet– the ROE changed when a new commander was brought in (Gen. McChrystal). Not when a new civilian was put in place.
Also these ROE are designed to help us win a counter-insurgency. That means not leveling a village just because we receive fire from it (the Soviets tried that in Afghanistan). And the ROE that our troops are operating under now give them the ability to supersede the concerns about civilians if they cannot disengage safely. This was clearly a situation where they couldn’t disengage. As was pointed out before, this points to a misapplication of the ROE and not the ROE themselves.
Blind partisan politics arent going to help us win this war- just like they didnt help when Iraq was falling apart in 2005-06.