What’s on your teacher’s reading list?
How about two of the National Education Association’s favorite books by Saul Alinsky?
“Agitate + Aggravate + Educate + Organize.”
Leftist-tested, teacher union-approved!
Hat tip: @alinskydefeater
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Good morning Michelle. Hope all is well with you and your family.
The National Education Association needs to be defunded now. We, the people, need to take back our schools and education system from these leftists marxists/socialists. Short of a complete revolution in the education system I don’t see how it can be done though. It seems we have had our eyes closed for too long and the infiltration by these radicals is so deep it will take years to remove them from the school system.
Do teachers even bother to deny that there’s a left wing slant in public education, these days? If I ever have kids, they -will- be home schooled.
OK. Darn. I was going to sleep last night and Pamela Geller irritated the hell out of me so I went to bed. Now, I get up and you have the NEA up on Alinski.
I’m going back to bed.
As a future teacher, I think the only way I would use that book today is to point out how both sides are embracing the “Rules for Radicals” in this political climate. The conservatives sites that I go on to nowadays talk about using the “rules” against liberals.
This is an outrage! The union has gone too far with this one. Time to burn up the phones again.
Absolutely incredible the Alinsky quotes they ADMIRE!!!!!
My children are all long out of school, but I may still go to my school district and ask them to publicly disavow the NEA’s “book club” recommendations. Just to get them on the record.
My ‘favorite’:
At our local high school, the English department got some extra funds and used them to buy Michael Moore movies…
I am a conservative, union teacher and I do not support MEA/NEA PAC at all! Please Michelle, be careful and not to clump all of us under this “socialist”, hope/change garbage. In my district, there are a few of us who are conservative educators who do approve of their political views which are mostly left-leaning.
Another reason I believe homeschoolers will be the ones to save America!
That used to be in the GOP platform, but now Republicans sneer about it being libertarian when the topic comes up.
Reading the excedrpts from the link provides the framework of how the tea partiers made their point.
“Agitate + Aggravate + Educate + Organize.”
Yep, words the tea party lives by.
Reading the excedrpts from the link provides the framework of how the tea partiers made their point.
“Agitate + Aggravate + Educate + Organize.”
Yep, words the tea party lives by.
There’s a typo right on the first line. “Saul Alinski wrote the book on American radicalism…”
What tea partiers have blown themselves up while planning murder?
MarcoPolo, please don’t feed the zyzzyg troll excrement as he bottom feeds. Thanks.
Oh, don’t take him seriously. He’s just P-O’d that we’re using their tactics against them and their beloved messiah.
As someone who’s studying to be a teacher – are their conservative teacher’s unions out there? If not, I vow never to fall for this insanity.
The only way the states are going to take back the reins of education is to quit going to the government trough for the taxdollars. It’s the same with every Federal program the states have gotten entangled with. The Feds hold the purse strings and say “No, you don’t have to participate in this program. But you’ll still have to send your tax dollars to DC and don’t expect any in return”.
Once the states can get the fortitude to say no and forego the money, then you might see some change. It’s like the abused spouse syndrome. They want to leave but don’t feel they can afford to.
Liberals will get what they’re asking for is they (mis)educate their conservative brethren with this garbage.
The single phrase I think that applies to the democrats are that they’re the party that passes the laws of unintended consequences…and this action supports that notion.
In the classical thinking of very traditional martial arts, the one thing a master never did was teach the most dangerous and deadly moves to an entire school, but only to a select few that could be trusted.
But we know the democrats all failed history!
If you do a search for “Federalist Papers” on the NEA website, the only thing that comes up is a link to a pdf file where they are mentioned by a Republican congressman.
Huh. Thomas Paine is cited, but there’s no mention of the dedication to Lucifer in Rules for Radicals. An unintentional oversight, no doubt. Let me help the NEA out with Alinksy’s words:
“Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins — or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.”
EnglishQueen01, there are plenty of conservatives within the Unions. That exists because many of us are forced to join, or else pay a “fair share” that is 100% of the Union dues any way. Needless to say, what most seem to forget when dealing with a Union is that they must live by the rules as well. In other words, when you get threatened with that grievance, simply say, “go ahead and file it”. Unions do bully, and here’s the rub, they will screw over their own kind in a heartbeat if it means to benefit those that are in power. If you’re in the union, be a pain in the ass to them. Stand up, speak your mind ,you’ll find many agree with you and simply call their bluff. Read the contract very well, it can be used against them in the same way that they use it for themselves. I’ve had grievances filed against me, and actually won every one of them.
Well, this certainly gives those of us who complained about liberal indoctrination in our govt. schools.
I want to see how they get around this.
I took screen shots of this in case they do what seems to be the standard operating procedure these days with scrubbing web sites.
Zero results for ‘The Federalist Papers’ when conducting a search on the NEA page.
FIVE results for Saul Alinksy.
“….govt. schools, legitimacy.”
I don’t know and the excerpts didn’t say.
What is ecactly wrong with tea partiers using the tactics of Alinsky?
Did not government get into education up to their eyeballs with an inroad called ‘school lunch’ funds? Where did the cashflow start?
I’d be willing to pack 2 lunches, if it would help get big daddy gubmit OUT.
This is what you get when the self absorbed baby boomers just couldn’t wait to get their own kids in pre-school and out of the house. /rant
Why is it that so many people are willing to say they will just home-school their children instead of working to take back the school system? I am not saying that homeschooling is bad, what I am saying is that I am tired of paying taxes for the schools to radicalize the children of our nation.
What about surprise ‘tea parties’ at PTA meetings in protest to the NEA agenda? Complete with video for Youtube?
It do have merits!
I teach middle school economics, civics, and US history–and this is exactly why I went in to education! More conservatives need to get back into teaching and take the schools back! If we’re paying for it, why let the liberals win?
Here’s what I’ve been reading and these books now reside in my classroom:
Liberty and Tyranny by Mark Levin
Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg
America Alone by Mark Steyn
The Politically Incorrect Guides to U.S. History, The Great Depression, Capitalism, and Global Warming
America: The Last Best Hope, vols. I & II by William Bennett
I’m working on yours now, Michelle, and as soon as I finish, it’ll be on the shelf!
Sums up the NEA rather well-be that NEA the National Education Association or the National Endowment for the Arts. How we would defund the National Education Association I do not know but the National Endowment for the Arts and the Department of Education both need defunding IF we ever take back the House and Senate.
No we Tea Baggers do not “Agitate + Aggravate + Educate + Organize” but we do organize to educate so together we can say No Mr. President on all kinds of issues. This President who is both a student of the Saul Alinsky School and friend of William Ayres and most every Marxist NEEDS to be told NO more. If the ManChild and his admirers find NO to be aggravating, if that agitates them then they need to grow up–life is full of disappointments.
But back in the fifties and sixties much of our school books at least leaned towards marxism/fascism: We were taught Woodrow Wilson was a great liberal (small L) never mentioning his segregation of the military and civil service or his Special Police Forces attacking foes of his War Socialism, Espionage Act of 1917 and the warrantless searches it allowed.
Then we got into FDR as Christ reborn. Fortunately few of our teachers were such Leftist and I was always encouraged to read independantly-but even then our schools were being used for Social Policy. And now we have the Department of Education with the full weight of Fedzilla to spread this pestilence ever deeper, ever wider.
So if the sissies, wimps and crybabies of ObamaLand find we BitterClinging Tea Baggers aggravating all I can tell them is Grow Up. We defend our children from this danger as we defend them from fire or disease.
—
Trolls/alligators
Only a socialist/fascist/opposite-worldview holder, like that poster to whom you are responding, would essentially condemn people; who are defending themselves by hypocritically daring to bring a gun to a gunfight.
The nerve of conservatives/traditionalists!
Oh, and BTW – good post!
What’s wrong with using brute force instead of intellect? You tell me.
Our kids have NEVER spent a single day under the indoctrination of the NEA. At times it has been a struggle but I am not about to let a bunch of Marxist morons recruit and indoctrinate our kids in their struggle to destroy America.
The best way to fight this is to take your kids out of public school. If every conservative in the nation did this we would destroy the NEA overnight!
Well thank you granite, very much. And to quote:
Surrender? Ha, We Have Not Yet Begun to Aggravate!
–
If you must Feed the Trolls feed them to the alligators
I tried to navigate the website to find out how this material would be used? It also doesn’t say what grade level it would be taught or discussed? With the classics being ignored in classrooms I find it very telling school districts find this worthy of spending taxpayer dollars to buy.
In Illinois students are required to take a 1 semester constitution class their senior year. In the fall of 1987 I was lucky enough to end up in Mr. Vazales’s class. He had Bushy gray hair and always wore a suit and tie to class. I was known as kind of stupid-I’m not-but in Vaz’s class I took off. I was already known as a conservative. After the class was over he kept tabs on me for the rest of the year. I am honored to have been a student of Richard Vazales-who as it turns out-was/is a democrat.
The public school system needs more Richard Vazales!
I saw Zyzzyg arguing with a guy on a street corner several months ago. The Onion reported on the collision.
Because this book is not on a recommended reading list for students. it is a book the NEA recommends to its members that are interested in activism.
It looks like it falls under the category of Tools and Ideas. That is marxist jargon for things you use without showing. This will be teachers’ reading and the ideas will be inserted into the classroom discussion.
Caveat: It doesn’t say that, I’m inferring from having been around these kinds of people for many years.
I should add that on occasion I still run into a former gym teacher-who no longer acknowledges me when she sees me-because since I’m an unapologetic conservative I’m not worth speaking to.
She probably assumes you hate lesbians.
Ford Reports Surprise $1 Billion 3Q Profit
The NEA LockStep teachers COULD use this article in Economics or Socialist Studies (what happened to Civics?) under the heading:
Bailouts-how is that working for GM and Chrysler?
or perhaps:
Cash for Clunkers-Spending What You Do Not Have for What You Do Not Need in the Age of Obama
I am sure in this era of Diversity and Relevance the NEA LockStep teachers will reach out and do so.
—
Trolls/alligators
Books aren’t contagions, and thoughts within them don’t get into kids brains through osmosis. It’s not enough for those books to sit on the shelves in your classroom. Please use them in your lessons!
Thanks Chap and b-cat. I’ve not had reason to visit the site before and was curious. I intended to send it out to my teacher friends and relatives asking for their comments (heh) and didn’t want my head handed to me.
Oh Chappy-tis a ray of sunshine this cold morning-55*.
Let them teach these rules to their teenage students. The education system itself would be their first victim. All we have to do is inform those students of how their lives compare to homeschoolers. Homeschoolers finish their lessons in a few hours each day, don’t have hours of homework at night, have more time to pursue subjects that interest them, aren’t stuck in the same building day in and day out, aren’t slaves to the school board calendar, etc. Let these “organized, radical” teens know how the system wastes their time and is a disservice to them, and they’ll take care of changing it themselves.
On November 2nd, 2009 at 9:47 am, chapoutier said:
I should add that on occasion I still run into a former gym teacher-who no longer acknowledges me when she sees me-because since I’m an unapologetic conservative I’m not worth speaking to.
She probably assumes you hate lesbians.
Hah! I think she’s worried that her young adult daughter will catch what “afflicts” me.Catching common sense-what a horrible thought!
Conservatism/plague-they’re one and the same.
//sarc
So this means that Mr. Alinsky is okay with a police officer conducting an illegal search, as long as evidence of some crime is the result? That kind of moronic, libtard, thinking is what leads to a police state.
Oh, wait! That’s what the libtards want!
So, Mr. Alinsky gets to have it both ways. When HE uses the ends to justify the means, it’s good. When I use the ends to justify the means, it’s bad.
B.S.!!!!!
When will these F-ing libtards get with the program. Something is either good or it is not. We’re not talking about a kid refusing to eat his vegetables. “They’re good for you!” — “No, they’re bad.” We’re talking about life and death decisions.
Of course, libtards have always been comfortable with people dying in the name of socialist revolution. (Start with the 5th paragraph)
Then that’s her problem, hee, hee.
Is that all you got? A feeble attempt at a joke? How about answering the question? Try addressing the message. It is far more helpful.
What is exactly wrong with tea partiers using the tactics of Alinsky?
OK, maybe you chose not to do research and acknowledge facts. The following is cut and pasted from the link, provided by MM, and done for your benefit.
Alinski devised and proved thirteen tactical rules for use against opponents vastly superior in power and wealth.
1. “Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have.
2. “Never go outside the experience of your people.
3. “Wherever possible go outside of the experience of the enemy.
4. “Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.
5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.
6. “A good tactic is one that your people enjoy.
7. “A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.
8. “Keep the pressure on.
9. “The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.
10. “Major premise for tactics is development of operations that will maintain constant pressure upon the opposition.
11. “If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside.
12. “The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.
13. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.
What is wrong with the tea partiers following and taking advantage of these tactics? Have the tea parties employeed any of these tactics? Yes they have.
Be somewhat objective, get a grip and realize that tactics employed by one group can certainly be employed by another group, . . . without accepting, or supporting, the first group’s policies and agenda.
Don’t reject the tactics of Alinsky, reject his agenda and policies.
There is nothing wrong with the tea partiers using the above tactics. Do you agree, or do you disagree? Don’t address the messenger, address the question.
I think one of the first things Newt did was for the NEA when first elected.
was VOTE for sorry
With regard to the issues tea partiers are advancing, they are not using brute force, and it would be ill advised. Brute force will not work for the tea partiers, and intellect wiil.
Your turn -
What is exactly wrong with tea partiers usings the tactics of Alinsky?
I seriously doubt that it would destroy the NEA as they would still have access to our tax dollars. If the public schools started loosing more children to homeschooling than were staying in public schools I forsee tactics to stop it. I could see the NEA trying to mandate credentialing for home school parents if the states want to keep their education dollars from the feds. Don’t forget, it was not that long ago that Illinois tried to unionize in home caregivers.
Homeschooling is a great thing and for those who do it good for you, but I believe it would be much better to take the schools back and stop having our tax dollars being spent on indoctrinating our children. If we truly want our schools back we need to work towards a voucher program. With a school choice program we would have the option as to what school our children can attend and this more than anything will bring power back to the parents and the teachers and take it away from the Unions and the NEA.
Because the ends don’t justify the means. Believing that they do is called foot-in-the-door policy. And once you let radical socialist policies in, it becomes very difficult to remove them. Think, entitlement class.
But it is interesting that tax protesters led this country to freedom, socialists like Alinsky have done their best to take that freedom away, and now the tax protesters are back.
Hmmmm.
since our public school teachers have time for this reading, while in my district they had last friday and this friday off, perhaps they should be required to take an SAT test and score above average (1000) so they can at least teach at an average high school level. i believe this would immediately eliminate 2/3 of our public teachers, the price for replacements would rise, and better teachers (as opposed to union stiffs) would apply.
November 2nd, 2009 at 9:54 am, Dexter Alarius
First of all, this thread is not your personal message forum, so no one here must ‘try’ to ‘address’ your message.
Secondly, something tells me you brought up the ‘what’s wrong with using the Alinsky tactics’ statement because you know Alinsky is wrong, and you would love to lump tea partiers in with the same rubbish.
Doesn’t work.
Come now. Lumping certain contemporary people or entities here with certain historically undesirable people or entities based upon a perceived similarity in tactics is a time-honored tradition at the MM message boards!
That’s fine. It has been a part of politics for a very long time. When one makes the comparison, they can stand or fall on their argument.
What spacey is objecting to is the tactic of someone trying to entangle someone else in an argument that will make the comparison for them.
You know, the more I read from chapoutier, the more I think he’s the reincarnation of Adolph Hitler.
I think rather more similar to the character Petronius, the courtier and flatterer of the emperor Nero, in Quo Vadis.
That was a clever post John. Josef Mengele was also clever.
Refering to zyzzgg’s previous posts:
It looks like zyzzg has read Saul Alinsky’s book and passed with flying colors. Now zyzzg intends to use those techniques hear.
ake that here.
Then add an m to ake.
The only way to stop the slide to socialism in America is for states to refuse to participate. I am quite certain the red states do not need the blue states to survive but the blue states would fail without the red states. Okay, so the blue states are already failing- I mean without the red states to prop them up the would have already demanded a change in their local governments.
Damn, I wish Oregon was a red state.
***
Things have really changed since I graduated from high school in 1959. Our reading lists included MacBeth, Romeo and Juliet, Julius Caesar, The Red Badge of Courage, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, the Federalist Papers, etc.
***
I do remember reading The Prince–by Machiavelli–on the cynical methods needed for a prince to stay in power as the head of a city-state.
***
Saul Alinsky’s book is just an update on The Prince for modern times. It should be studied in order to “know your enemy” and his methods.
***
The truth and a free press–Fox TV, talk radio, and conservative internet– will out these clowns. People will wake up as their economic health is destroyed by our Messiah (PBUH) Obama and his minions.
***
John Bibb
***
The war on the news will be televised just not on any channel anyone is watching
Selling the Drama, Who’s Competing For Your Attention? Cable News War.
I added a link to Rob Bartlett’s Blog he put up everyone’s top 5 favorite books.
I can come up with 2 so far
http://youhavetobethistalltogoonthisride.blogspot.com/2009/11/selling-drama-who-is-competing-for-your.html
Who said it was my personal message forum? I certainly did not.
I responded/commented on MM’s post (BTW, it is her forum) asking a rhetorical question and others commented on what I posted. They even asked me questions. And, guess what? I answered them.
Seriously, if you answer someone’s question is it extreme to have your questions answered?
Go ahead and take me to task, but when you do, you will more than likely get a response, and maybe even a question from me. If you don’t want a response or question from me, don’t comment what I write in response to MM’s post. It is fairly straightforward and simple.
Whatever that ‘something’ is that is telling you anything should not be listened to by you, because that ‘something’ is wrong.
Take a deep breath and think about it.
There is no connection betwen tactics and policy (an advocated position). You are stuck on ‘Alinsky’ and not how to achieve the tea partier’s goals.
Should the tea partiers keep the pressure on, to advance their goals? Yes, or no? I say yes. Does that happen to be one of Alinski’s tactics? Yes. So what?
At war, your enemy is using snipers to take out your troops? Would you not employ snipers as an element of your tactics, too? Using snipers does not mean you support your enemy’s objective. It means you are willing to employ the same tactics.
Doesn’t work.
zzzzzzzzzzzz…yawn
there you go again…
I’m not surprised.
I have several family members who are teachers. While they themselves are not Communists, they fail to see how both the Democratic Party and the National Education Association (NEA) are closely affiliated with the Communist Party USA. The Communist Party USA proudly claimed that they were represented at the NEA convention before the 2004 election…
That says it all!
Really? Really? Are you really going to go there?
Here’s a few questions for you:
1. Does the tea party believe in brainwashing the youth?
2. Does the tea party believe in strong-arm tactics like harassing bankers’ families and companys’ board members to get what they want?
3. Does the tea party believe in stifling free speech by those they disagree with?
4. Does the tea party believe that entitlements are the way to freedom?
I cannot seriously believe you’re going there. Another false dichotomy, by you, using illogical comparative methodology.
SPECIAL K
I agree!!!!!!! I meant to say this morning when posting I DON’T agree with looney liberal thinkers/believers. I had prof. development today and had to sit in a civics classroom for spec. ed. stuff and whose picture was right in front of me? You guessed right BO’s. Thank goodness I kept looking elsewhere and BTW, I don’t remember a pic of GWB in this classroom last yr. Go figure.
Let freedom and liberty prosper.
Here’s a tip to those of you who don’t know the type of people currently educating teachers:
There’s a group known as the Rouge Forum that my graduate advisor continually pushed on my class as a way of addressing social, racial, and economic “inequities” in the education system. Unfortunately, what he “failed” to disclose is how far-left, and Communist this group’s bent actually was.
Look it up. It’s a trip. It’s a study in the kind of people who inhabit the various education schools that prepare new crops of teachers across the country.
However, according to zyzzyg, we have more to worry about from the likes of Tea Party activists than those who participate in the Rouge Forum. They’re both the same in his eyes.
They’re not. Until you’ve actually experienced interaction with the participants of such groups, people like zyzzyg have no freaking clue. None.
I got my Masters degree but also learned the kind of crazy that inhabits the Rouge Forum and the types of people that are educating future teachers. It’s scary….
As a former teacher myself, there are no conservative teachers unions that I know of. Most teachers are of a liberal bent in my experience.
I don’t mean to burst your bubble, but I would really be cautious about entering the teaching profession right now. There are more teachers than teaching jobs out there. We actually have a teacher surplus right now. It really depends on what field you go in.
The competition is stiff for jobs. Sites like teachers.net, which I highly recommend, really go into what is going on right now in teaching. I substitute taught for 5 years, hoping that if I got my foot in the door that way it would make a difference or impression. It didn’t. Please don’t make the mistake of subbing. Whatever joy you have now for teaching will quickly dissipate.
Are you going after your BA or Masters? A quick warning: schools are hiring the BA recipients rather than the Masters recipients because of the union-decreed payscale. They’d rather hire a BA recipient whose pay is less than a Master’s recipient.
I’m taking a break from teaching. I’m a social studies teacher by trade, but given there are more social studies teachers than jobs out there, I’ve had to make alternate plans. Being a military spouse hasn’t helped in my career progression. I’ve resorted to going back to the private sector as an administrative assistant, which has paid me more than I’ll ever make as a lowly sub.
Good luck to you. I hope you have better luck than I did.
Exactly where is ‘there’? Be specific.
I don’t know.
I have not seen anything like that in the press.
Aside from shouting down people in Town Hall meetings who disagree with them, probaly not.
I have no idea. I thought the tea partiers were all about the excessive size of Government and too much spending.
However, tea partiers support large Government programs like Medicare, Medicaid, commodity subsidies (e.g., sugar, milk, farm supports, flood insurance, etc.), Social Security, regional airports, non-Constitutional entities like SEC, FDIC, PGC, USDA, OSHA, EPA, etc.
I have not seen, or heard, any tea partiers say they want those programs canceled. Of course, my not being aware of it does not mean the tea partiers have not called for their abolition.
If you have a link where the abolition of Medicare (or, any of the large Government programs mentioned above) is called for, please provide a link.
Exactly what am I comparing? There is no dichotomy.
In war, if your enemy is using snipers, will you not use snipers, too. Am I comparing you to your enemy, or am I saying that the tactics your enemies uses, are tactics that you can use too?
Am I comparing Alinsky to tea partiers, or am I saying that the tactics used to advance each of their respective positons, are the same?
Here are a few questions for you -
1. Should the tea partiers project their power beyond what their opposition thinks they have?
2. Should the tea partiers invoke non-American ideas to present their arguement? Should the tea partiers go outside the American experience to achieve their goals?
3. Should the tea partiers take advantage of their oppositions lack of experience?
4. Should the tea partiers compell their opposition to follow the rules and have changes come to a vote?
5. Should the tea partiers make signs that make fun of their opposition?
6. Should the tea partiers enjoy their efforts and remain in good spirits?
7. Should the tea partiers seek immediate impact from their efforts?
8. Should the tea partiers keep the pressure on their opponents?
9. Should the tea partiers use their image to advance their agenda?
10. Should the tea partiers continue their efforts? Should the tea partiers maintain constant pressure upon the opposition?
11. Should the tea partiers pick a target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it?
Exactly where did I ever say that? You are assuming facts not in evidence. Yep, you are misrepresenting the truth.
I have never even heard of the Rouge Forum, so how is it possible for me to see any similarities between them and any other group?
Slow down. Stop making unsubstantiated assertions, and simply rely on the facts. You do not know what is the same in my eyes.
Of course, I do not have any freaking clue about the Rouge Foundation. I have never heard of them before you mentioned them.
They sound like a radical anarchists group of make-up and cosmetic artists, running around with lipstick, eyeliner and powder puffs redecorating people’s faces. Are they?
Many educators have left the NEA. Myself included. I left a few years ago and joined the Association of American Educators. I get the liability insurance without the kool-aid.
Really? Poor, zyzzyg, it must be so hard to continue on this blog with that victim complex and belief that everything you say is “misrepresented.” We could discuss the many times you’ve made “leaps” in logic. I guess that’s one of your “facts” not in evidence.
Of course you haven’t. Not many Americans have except those associated with the education field. Perhaps, if you actually went on their website and gained an insight in the similarities between them and other far-left groups you wouldn’t be making leaps in logic like you’ve done on this topic.
Oohhh… I’m just taking a page out of your own blogging handbook, Zyzzyg. Facts are wonderful things… perhaps you should become acquainted with them as well since you’ve “misrepresented” the goals of the teaparty movement. I could care less what is the “same in your own eyes” because you’ve proven time and time again that not only are you not willing to
hear out conservatives you’re just as “entrenched” as you think “we” are.
It’s Rouge Forum. Of course you don’t. You let other people do your research for you. The internet is a beautiful thing. Perhaps, you should broaden your horizons?
And you wonder why people have a beef with you? Was this necessary? If you’re going to be disrespectful, then why bother responding? What is your problem?
I’m simply illustrating the weakness in your argument in comparing tactics or advocating similar tactics be used on the conservative, grassroots side. Is this the “direct engagement” you speak of? Are you simply unwilling to hear out others? Or are you only willing to display your own viewpoint without acknowledging its weaknesses?
You’re the one who makes “leaps” in logic… I’m sure you can picture it. If not, I’ll do your work for you. Basically, the tea partiers are as bad as the Saul Alinsky practioners. Or, we should exhibit those tendencies to our advantage.
You don’t know? I thought you had the Tea Party movement all figured out.
I was actually talking about ACORN and home loan shakedown artists. Michelle has taken great pains to illustrate this. It’s in the press. I was simply asking if the Tea Party was doing this too.
They “shouted down” people? Or did they protest politicians who don’t share the public’s concerns? Yes, those Tea Partiers are “mean” people.
Of course you don’t. This is about your animus toward conservatives and their “hypocrisy.” You would actually have to ask tea partiers, such as the ones on this blog, for their insight. You’re not interested in that.
Evidence? Or is this a leap in logic?
This is your own assertion. I have not heard ANY tea partier advocating for or against government programs. They simply want government to get out of their business. You have asserted that if people want to protest government, they should advocate for government program elimination. Of course, you’re not aware of what the tea partiers advocate or don’t advocate because you’re not involved in the movement and aren’t interested in what they’re saying.
Why is the onus on me? You’re the one who made the assertion that the tea partiers are advocating for the preservation of government programs, YOU put up the link. This is your pet peeve. Not mine.
Sure there is. You’re either saying that the tea partiers are as bad as Saul Alinksy practictioners or you’re advocating that they use his tactics. Which one is it?
You are comparing the tea partiers to the Saul Alinsky practioners. You ARE asserting that they’re hypocrites and are as bad as the far left. I have nothing in common with the LEFT but I DO know how they operate. Their tactics are not OUR tactics. Then again, you look down on the tea partiers as hypocrites and as bad as the far left zealots so you will continue to treat them with disdain.
Yes, you are making a false comparison. People employ different strategies to be heard. However, movements are organic and don’t always grow out of studying the opposition’s techniques. If you cannot recognize that the tea party movement is as much a local, organic awakening as much as it is a national awakening, I can’t convince you otherwise.
No. Since much of the movement grew locally, much of what the tea partiers are concerned with has to do with how the national circumstances are affecting them in a local and state way. This has nothing to do with the Dems but rather the abuse of power by both parties. You would know that if you were sincerely interested in getting to know how the movement was started.
No. This is an organic, AMERICAN movement. It draws from the ideas of the founders (such as the 9/12ers) and the ideas set out in the Constitution. Nowhere have I seen it suggested, that they’re drawing from other movements from other countries. Where are you going with this?
Since a lot of their opposition grew up in the 60′s organizing against the Vietnam War, racism, sexism, etc., I think the opposition has PLENTY of experience. Again, where are you going with this?
Yes. However, if the election system is being manipulated NATIONALLY, then change has to come in local and state elections. Since we are a Republic, tea partiers want the opposition to STOP inducing change nationally and let it happen LOCALLY.
If they are pertinent to the situation. Where are you going here?
This isn’t a party. Many tea partiers have rearranged their schedules, sacrificed time with their families, friends, and at work to be part of this movement. It isn’t a party…. what is your point?
Since many want to throw the bums out from both parties that’s a given.
This is a given. Are you being serious?
Yes. Again, what is your point? Sometimes, the only way to get the message out is media exposure and attention. It has nothing to do with a “packaged” image.
You’ve already asked this question and I’ve answered.
I do not favor using Saul Alinsky’s tactics and I don’t think tea party participants do either. This is a movement that grew organically with no formal organization unlike organizations like ACORN which enjoy a level of formal political support by the likes of the Dem party.
I think your questions do not reflect a sincere attempt to understand the tea party movement. You would rather coopt it like the Repubs by introducing radical tactics like Saul Alinsky’s into the mix. Then again, this was never even about the original topic, only a diversion you’ve set up to introduce an alternate scenario that doesn’t have anything to do with the tea party movement to begin with.
If you are being sincere, I’m not seeing it. If you want Saul Alinsky’s tactics to be used by the movement, I’d rather people like you just stand on the sidelines and laugh, deride, or point fingers. You’re good at that. Not so good at making an actual point.
Another assumption is that all female gym teachers are lesbians.
Assumption is the mother of all screwups.
Radical Teacher is another “nice” teaching journal for our liberal teachers.
http://www.radicalteacher.org/recent.asp
Interesting thought. You attributed something to me that I did not say, and now I am a victim for calling you out for your misrepresentation. Cut and paste where I said anything close to your assertion, “. . . according to zyzzyg, we have more to worry about from the likes of Tea Party activists than those who participate in the Rouge Forum. They’re both the same in his eyes.
If you find anything like that I will apologize. If you can’t, I hope you apologize, or you will at least retract your assertion.
How could I possibly go on a website that I never heard of? No, it wasn’t me that made a leap in logic. You said that somehow I see something, that I never heard of, the same way I am supposed to see another group. How is that even possible? It isn’t even logical.
Would it be fair of me to say that, “According to Emjem24, we have more to worry about from the likes of Tea Partiers activists than those who participate in the Pain Pudre Forum. They’re both the same in her eyes.” Would it be accurate? Do you even know what the Pain Pudre Forum is? Should I be called out for saying, suggesting, and asserting such a thing?
Please, cut and paste where I have misrepresented the goals of the Tea Party movement? If you find anything like that I will apologize. If you can’t, I hope you apologize, or you will at least retract your assertion.
Yes, I have asked whether they would support, or have supported, the abolition of other Government programs and spending. And, aren’t those part of the goals of the Tea Party? Smaller Government and less spending?
And, what makes you think I am unwilling to hear out conservatives? Are we not communicating? You used the phrase “same in your eyes.” I did not. I asked you, how do you know how I see things? If you could care less about the phrase, why did you use it?
Why would I research something I never heard of? You made the initial reference to them, not me. The logic escapes me.
I don’t wonder why people have a beef, or anything, with me. Their reasons are their own. What I do is ask questions and challenge people when they take me to task. Much like what is happening between you and me right now.
I made a comment to MM’s Blog, and I was taken to task. I responded, either offering more information or asking questions. Are you suggesting that people have beefs because they take me to task and I respond?
Moreover, the statement I made may have been a feeble attempt at humor. And, yes it was necessary. A little snark is readily found on this blog. Do you take issue with everyone for snark and humor? Do you have a beef with people who do it to others? I was making fun of a group that I had never heard of before you mentioned them. Lighten up.
As for disrespect who do you take to task for making fun of others and calling them names? Do you address every instance of disrespect?
How is it a weakness to say that if you advocate a position, and then that protest is one tactic to achieve your goal? Are the conservatives and grassroots side protesting, or not? Have other groups protested? Should conservatives and grassroots side not protest? Should they not protest because it is a tactic that others have used? Protesting to advance your argument, does not make your argument the same, or equal to, another group that also protests. You do understand that, correct?
Not sure I said ‘direct engagement,’ but I am pretty sure I have said ‘ask and answer direct questions.’ That being said, we are having a discussion, exchanging views and we are asking and answering direct questions from one another. Is this such a bad thing? We are engaged and are having a discussion. Yes, I am prepared to agree, as well as, say when I am wrong. I have done so in the past right here on MM’s blog. And, turn about is fair play, are you willing to display your own viewpoint and acknowledging its weaknesses?
BTW, thank you for responding as you have, and at length. It is beyond frustrating having someone write something (throw a bomb or insult you) and then scurry away.
OK, getting back in the saddle. Ooops, snark.
Why would you ask if I am unwilling to hear others out? Haven’t I cut and pasted your words and responded directly to your questions? I am reading every word you write (say).
Please cut and paste where I said that. If you find anything like that I will apologize. If you can’t, I hope you apologize, or you will at least retract your assertion.
Again, protesting is protesting and it includes, but is not limited to Agitating, Aggravating, Educating and Organizing. What you are protesting or advancing as a goal is another thing. I hope you do not think protesting is a bad thing. Do you? When that first bag of tea went into Boston Harbor, it was a protest. Was that a bad thing?
Yep, I do not know whether children are being brainwashed. Though I hope everyone is teaching their children. Don’t you? And, why would you think I had the Tea Party all figured out? Because, I understand that they are against too much spending and big Government? I am sure there is more to it, though I have hit only what I believe to be the major points. You got more, let me hear them.
Hmmm, this is interesting, and instructive. A leap I did not take. It is easy not leaping. You had ACORN in mind and I never assumed, asserted or accused you of that. You should re-read your question, and of course my answer. You asked about Tea Partiers and not ACORN. You asked a direct question and I gave you a direct response. Had you asked about ACORN, my answer would, of course, have been different. Since it was your words, I can be confident that you will not accuse me of twisting them.
I cannot be held accountable for what you were thinking, and did not write. Nor can I be held accountable for organizations that I never heard of. And, I would not hold you accountable, either.
Yep, they shouted down people. And, yes they protested politicians. Both things happened. Sometimes both happened at the same time. Shouting down people is a form of protest. Do you agree?
Why would you say that Tea Partiers are “mean” people? Are you thinking something and not telling me? See, no leaping. Just asking a question so that I may better understand you.
HUH? What animus? I am going to do it again. Cut and paste where I have said or suggested anything like that. If you find anything like that I will apologize. If you can’t, I hope you apologize, or you will at least retract your assertion.
Hypocrisy, is too strong a word and solicits far too much emotion. I prefer the word consistency, and it is more accurate. If you don’t like big Government or too much spending, then go after all of it. Not just some of it. Be consistent.
And, how do you know what I am interested in? By what I am not talking about? By what I am not asking about? The logic escapes me.
Yep, it is my own personal observation. From what has been provided by MM, and elsewhere. Of everything MM has presented, not one instance exists where a Tea Partier has said, shut down Medicare because it is too big and spends too much money. I do recall mentions of getting rid of the Dept of Education. Yes, in this regard, I am consistent. If you protest big Government, then all big Government should be protested. If you protest too much spending, then all too much spending should be protested. Are you consistent? Are Tea Partiers consistent?
You have not heard a Tea Partier advocating for or against Government programs? Are you sure? What is the Tea Partier’s position on H.R. 3200?
How would you know what I am interested in? How do you know what I am involved in, or not involved in?
The onus is not on you. If you can’t answer a question, just say so. And no, I made no such assertion. I made a statement, based on my personal observations, that Tea Partiers were not advocating for the elimination of all big Government or ending too much spending.
Hip hip hooray! I think you finally got it. I am saying the latter. I have always said the latter. I have never said the former. Yep, it is OK and a good thing to use practices and tactics that work. Who cares where the tactics come from, or who uses them? Tactics are tactics. And, goals are goals. Goals and tactics are separate and distinct. A protester of any sort can use tactics of any sort, and that does not make their goals the same.
You asked the question in your own words, and I hope you understand the answer. Yes, I am advocating that the tactics that work for protesters be used, no matter who else uses those same tactics.
Yes, use the tactics of Alinsky, but not his goals.
Nope. Never have compared Tea Partiers to Alinsky practitioners. And I have never mentioned the word ‘left’ in this thread. I have said that they shared the same tactics though.
Nope, If anything I am asking if they are consistent and not hypocrites.
Cut and paste where I have treated tea partiers with disdain, or looked down on them? If you find anything like that I will apologize. If you can’t, I hope you apologize, or you will at least retract your assertion.
Yes, I agree, people employ different strategies to be heard. Who suggested that anyone study anything? Why can’t the Tea Patier’s form of protest be organic, too. We have had a fair amount of protesting in the country and there is a baseline of experience to draw from. Marching, speeches, signs, songs, bull horns, leaflets, costumes, etc. Protesters of all stripes have employed similar tactics over the years.
You do not have to convince me of anything, but it would be helpful if you would ask what I thought about where the Tea Party movement comes from.
OK, you do not favor using Alinsky’s tactics, though his tactics are used by the Tea Partiers. OK, the Tea Party movement has grown organically.
The questions were meant to understand how much you agree with the tactics that Alinsky uses. And, you agree with quite a few of them. Alinsky has thirteen items, I asked you about eleven. See Post #834018. It has everything to do with the tactics that work for the Tea Partiers, and that work for protesters in general. Using the same tactics as someone else does not mean you agree with the positions of the other people that uses the same tactics.
Bottomline, if the Tea Partiers are using tactics that work, and even if those tactics were used by Alinski, more power to the Tea Partiers. Yep, the Tea Partiers should educate. Yep, the Tea Partiers should organize. Yep, the Tea Partiers should agitate. And, yep the Tea Partiers should aggravate.
And, how would you know what I am good at?
(Just for the fun of it, do you have a sense of humor? This is not a leap, just a question.)
Please cut and paste an example of your ‘guess’ as how you know what I am good at. Thought I was going to say ‘assertion,’ didn’t you? If you find anything like that I will apologize. If you can’t, I hope you apologize, or you will at least retract your assertion, and . . . ‘guess.’
Michelle- Unbelievable that you would delete my comment. I’m shocked. I wrote several paragraphs to you about this, about my experience, offering to send you stuff- reminding you I’d previously emailed you about this weeks ago…
You knocked the whole thing off? Are you kidding? You just chose which conservatives’ postings you like and knock off the rest? Was it because I stated I had previously tried contacting you- weeks ago- about all this? I never got an answer… is that something the rest of the readers shouldn’t see? Maybe that’s why you deleted my comment.
Of all the conservative pushing and ranting, you have here a conservative who reads your site every day- you’ve even given me HTs and linked to my blog before- who can’t believe you’d just up and delete that comment.
Does this mean I should seek help from someone willing to do more than TALK??? I mean, come on. Shocking. I’ll be sure to share this information… I’m very disappointed in you- especially considering the other trolls and trash you allow to comment here.