Did Doug Hoffman concede too early?
You’ll remember on election night a few weeks ago, upstate New York was reporting all sorts of ballot-counting glitches even as NY-23 conservative candidate Doug Hoffman conceded the race.
Now, the Syracuse Post-Standard reports that the race has tightened considerably — with thousands of military and overseas ballots still to be counted:
Conservative Doug Hoffman conceded the race in the 23rd Congressional District last week after receiving two pieces of grim news for his campaign: He was down 5,335 votes with 93 percent of the vote counted on election night, and he had barely won his stronghold in Oswego County.
As it turns out, neither was true.
But Hoffman’s concession — based on snafus in Oswego County and elsewhere that left his vote undercounted — set off a chain of events that echoed all the way to Washington, D.C., and helped secure passage of a historic health care reform bill.
Democratic Rep. Bill Owens was quickly sworn into office on Friday, a day before the rare weekend vote in the House of Representatives. His support sealed his party’s narrow victory on the health care legislation.
Now a recanvassing in the 11-county district shows that Owens’ lead has narrowed to 3,026 votes over Hoffman, 66,698 to 63,672, according to the latest unofficial results from the state Board of Elections.
In Oswego County, where Hoffman was reported to lead by only 500 votes with 93 percent of the vote counted election night, inspectors found Hoffman actually won by 1,748 votes — 12,748 to 11,000.
The new vote totals mean the race will be decided by absentee ballots, of which about 10,200 were distributed, said John Conklin, communications director for the state Board of Elections.
Under a new law in New York that extended deadlines, military and overseas ballots received by this coming Monday (and postmarked by Nov. 2) will be counted. Standard absentee ballots had to be returned this past Monday.
The state has yet to certify the election. Meantime, Speaker Pelosi hastily swore in Democrat Bill Owens, who hastily voted for the House government health care takeover bill last week, which barely squeaked through.
Conklin said the state sent a letter to the House Clerk last week explaining that no winner had been determined in the 23rd District, and therefore the state had not certified the election. But the letter noted that Owens still led by about 3,000 votes, and that the special election was not contested — two factors that legally allowed House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to swear in Owens on Friday.
“We sent a letter to the clerk laying out the totals,” Conklin said. “The key is that Hoffman conceded, which means the race is not contested. However, all ballots will be counted, and if the result changes, Owens will have to be removed.”
Before Owens was sworn in Friday, Rep. John Garamendi, a Democrat who won a special election in California, was sworn in Thursday. The two gave Pelosi the votes she needed to reach a majority of 218 and pass the historic health care reform legislation in the House.
The bill passed 220-215 late Saturday with the support of only one Republican. The Republican, Rep. Anh “Joseph” Cao of Louisiana, said he voted for the legislation only after seeing that Democrats had the 218 votes needed for passage.
As Jim Geraghty notes, it “would be really tough to make up a 3,000 vote margin in a three-way race among 10,000 absentee ballots.”
We’ll see shortly.
In the meantime, let it be a lesson to conservative challengers not to concede until the last ballot is counted.
The nation’s health may depend on it.
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Categories: NY-23
Pundit & Pundette
» Bishop Jenky, Nicki Minaj, and the "98%"JustOneMinute
» We Hear From The Department Of Good Ideas And False Choices
Fingers are crossed!
The left never concedes, even after the ballots have been counted it it’s close. They hang on for the recount which they (miraculously) always seem to win.
We need to play by the same rules. Our nice guy tactics aren’t getting us anywhere.
Spot.On.
LOL; I knew this would happen.
How much you want to bet, if Hoffman wins, the liberals will fight it in court, and they will eventually win?
The left always manages to get a liberal judge, change the rules, the law to suit their needs.
They don’t have to. Hoffman conceded, they win.
I was screaming at the TV that night. Why concede a close race with absentee ballots still out. Don’t concede…ever.
There must be trunk full of ballots in someone’s car we can use…
Hoffman’s concession fits the math.
This one is over. We learned a lot for future ones and that is the positive from NY-23.
While this would not mean much to the current house vote for healthcare, it may become very important in the next few months.
Hoffman will need a lot of help for a fair recount, I hope the locals there are keeping up with all of this.
I hope a lot has been learned from this race.
Doesn’t Hoffman’s concession become invalid if NY certifies him the winner? He didn’t drop out or forfeit.
I could be wrong, but I always thought conceding was the same as quitting. A kind of “throwing in the towel” sort of thing.
***
Don’t believe that the vote for “Health Care Reform” (aka socialized medicine) was close. SanFranNan did her math well and allowed enough “blue dog” democRATs to vote NO so she could keep them in Congress after the 2010 vote.
***
She was canny enough to not “run up the score” for no good reason–and risk losing reps in 2010. If she had needed 10 more votes you would have seen some of the”blue dogs” vote YES to keep her victory alive. This was just KABUKI THEATER–Frisco style.
***
Vote out all democRATS and RINO’s instead of putting faith in “blue dogs”–they just bite the hand that feeds them.
***
John Bibb
***
It ain’t over till its over…. I am hoping. This would be TOO cool!
Sounds to me like its still up for grabs.
Wrong. A condidate can “unconcede”. The most famous case, of course was Al Gore unconceding to W.
Proof that it is still up for grabs is that the msm isn’t reporting it.
I suppose now Bill Owens is calling Al Franken for advice on how to pull off a close election.
Two questions:
Does anybody know if the absentee and military ballots would reflect Scuzyfava’s dropping out of the race – or would they be pre her dropout?
Second, if in the final vote total shows Hoffman to have received the most votes – what happens then, if anything?
Agreed.
Nice guy tactics are getting us no place fast, to paraphrase The Three Stooges.
It’s way past time for conservatives to stop bringing a knife to a gunfight.
I agree. With all the ACORN shenanigans in Minnesota in the Coleman-Franken race no decision to concede should have been made by Coleman until the irregularities and illegalities were thoroughly investigated. We’re talking a few hundred votes there.
A concession, while it may or may not be a nice political gesture, has no legal bearing whatsoever.
I said on election night that there was no need concede as early as he did! Of course, I also assumed that the reported accounts had been accurately and properly reported. I should KNOW better by NOW! Unlike the GOP I won’t make that same mistake again and again and again and again and…
At every election the leftists prove they don’t respect the ballot and electoral process. This is increasingly likely to bode ill for the republic and citizens!
I would think that that would be the case.
Scozzyfava stopped her campaign (not sure exactly what term or words were used).
She still got a number of votes.
What would have happened if Scozzyfava had received more votes than the other two candidates had?
Would she not have “won the election”?
Does the answer to these questions depend on what some attorneys/judges decide the meaning of concede vs stop campaigning vs whatever vs etc. to be?
If so, may God help us.
The “concern” I heard about these ballots was that they were likely cast prior to Hoffman being known and the RINO dropping out.
With a 3,000 vote margin Hoffmann needs 70% of them to win……
I think you meant to say “plate of cookies” in place of “knife”.
That’s correct, NBF. Though if the presumptive winner has been already sworn into office how does that wash out (if Hoffman, all told, were to have won)?
and that is because why? THE.END.JUSTIFIES.THE.MEANS!
they play dirty. You’d think we learn by now but hey, Hoffman is a newby and that’s the kind we need. God is in His heavens.
“Concession” is just a social nicety, a gesture of sorts to “unite” behind the winner, but it’s not a withdrawal. (The aforementioned Algore situation is the most famous example.)
Owens would be removed, and Hoffman sworn in. (It’s in the 2nd gray quoted block above.)
If the vote count goes to Hoffman does anyone have any doubts about a long and very tedious court challenge?
On November 12th, 2009 at 11:17 am, b-cat said:
How much you want to bet, if Hoffman wins, the liberals will fight it in court, and they will eventually win?
They don’t have to. Hoffman conceded, they win.
Not true. That’s not a legally binding situation. Owens would be removed.
And let’s not forget, if Owens refuses to go, he would be looked upon as illegitimate, not to mention an outcry from the public.
IF Hoffman ends up winning, this would be an awesome thing for conservatives as everyone in the liberal media has said that this was a loss for Palin, the conservative party, the right wingers, etc. Yeah, right. Having an eletion within a couple of % points is not a landslide win for Owens.
Why are we just now hearing about this travesty? How can Pelosi get away with swearing in 2 more Dems without Election Certs? Where were RNC Chair Steele & the House Minority Leader while this MN-redux injustice was happening? These leaders are continually acting in the same ludicrous manner over & over – & expecting some different results – this is insanity!
True, and unfortunately the left-wing extremists are doing their best (worst?) to raise hell to the earthly plane.
Also, didn’t Algore rescind his concession in 2000?
It is a lesson to everyone running for office.
Please note…
There were NOT 10,200 absentee ballots. That is how many were sent out. The number that were received by the deadline was about 5,600.
Hoffman would have to win almost 80% of the absentee ballot. That is absurdly unlikely.
More than one Democrat has won his seat that way-just an odd coincidence I am sure.
Now I have visions of Hang Chads-the pain-the misery-the Democrats.
New American Dictionary of PC BS:
glitches:
a)-Democrats stuffing ballot boxes at a furious rate.
b) -algore breathing carbon polluted air.
Not miraculous at all. Just look at how many election departments have union workers hand counting the votes in a recount.
Actually the deadline is this coming Monday, the 16th. They would have to be postmarked by Nov. 2nd.
Two snafus and one glitch and Hoffman is in.
What an entertaining thing it would be if Hoffman ends up winning.
Actually a bit of correction…that is how many had been received as of election night. Perhaps some more would trickle in, but doubtful in the numbers Hoffman needs to have any sort of realistic shot.
I don’t think it’s only the absentee ballots here that are in question, but also the remaining regular ballot problems that are still being resolved. I would encourage Hoffman to ask for a recount. If the race is closing up this tightly, why not?
That deserves a rimshot!!
Improbable things happen all the tim. Count the ballots. At least now we know we can’t trust the numbers presented by those running the election boards in NY-23.
Finish counting the ballots! Tell Mr. Owens to hold on just one minute.
Yes, a similar percentage was previously noted. No one is saying it’s a done deal yet, that’s why Pelosi shouldn’t have “sworn” him in. I’m sure you agree.
Only for military, which make up about 1/5 of the absentees. Otherwise, they would have had to be received by this past Monday.
I did the math regarding the absentee ballots.
Assuming that Owens really does lead by 3,026 votes, then Hoffman needs to receive:
- 65% of the votes if all 10,500 absentee ballots were returned
- 69% if 80% were returned
- 75% if 60% were returned
65% seems kinda possible, but 75% seems very unlikely.
Does anyone know typical absentee ballot return rates?
Thanks for that, NJMark, I see on a 2nd read it was noted in the news article.
RELAX Chap! Don’t get your panties in a bind expounding on how unlikely it is. You really are missing the point, but wouldn’t it be something….
Pointless. In a race this close, the Demonrats can always manufacture votes to ensure victory.
Ask Senator Franken or Governor Gregoire.
Ummm…they are. The ballots, by law, will be counted. They are counted even if the race isn’t tight.
Based on an absentee figure which is too high.
All I am saying is I wouldn’t get my hopes up.
Thanks for your concern…we won’t get our hopes up (snicker).
And this is only ONE county for military absentee votes…more will probably come in within the next few days…note below that 1303 had been returned but not counted yet.
I am pretty sure that is how many the entire county sent, not just for military. Though I would suspect a higher % of military votes there than in the other counties since the vast majority of Drummies live on base or nearby in Jefferson.
Chap is just happy that Scuzzyfava didn’t fly her true colors (extreme leftist) for all to see until it was too late for the less politically-updated Republicans and independents who had to vote absentee, e.g due to being in a war zone.
Behind the sarcasm, peep, that is actually a very good point. A lot of folks probably voted before Hoffman got so hot and Dede got all the bad press, and certainly most of them voted before Dede withdrew.
If I were Hoffman, at the end of the absentee ballot count which should be finished sometime next week, should request a complete recount. Considering they probably need to weed out all the dead people, the ACORN fake voters, dogs, cats and other illegitimate Democrat votes.
This Dede woman has been nothing more than an unprofessional pol with sour grapes. Now she’s out there trashing everyone and anything.
If she ever expects to have a political future (I think she already committed political suicide) she should start being more professional and gracious.
But, considering how nasty she’s been she has no chance for any future.
I personally would never hire a person with such a juvenile and petty attitude.
Hmm. If an absentee voter had dropped his/her ballot in the mail voting a straight Republican ticket, then found out about Scuzzy’s defection, could they sue to change their vote?
MM,
If you seethis maybe you would like to post for comment – I actually thought this was an Onion article but this is really important for people to know if true:
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2009/11/12/obama-administration-intends-to-purge-republicans-from-the-civil-service/
I believe many absentee ballot folks tried to do that. I read a few sentences on election day, but nothing more than that (since the it woulndn’t help the MSM’s Democrat any, why cover it).
I still think the entire district needs to be recounted…
This is a reminder that the media always lies.
When Hoffman conceded before the absentee ballots were counted I knew he was making a serious mistake. I hope conservatives will take a lesson from it.
It looks like under NY law there is an automatic recount within 15 days of the election. So there is no mechanism for a specific candidate to request one.
Yeah, I was poking atcha, Chap, but it wasn’t in a spirit of sarcasm. Just noting the fact all Dems know they dodged a big bullet in NY-23. It’s like seeing my team win a game by recovering a fumble on the last play of the game. They really didn’t deserve to win, but they just lucked out. And a win is a win, no matter how ugly. It’s akin to the saying about a tie game being like “kissing your sister” – which may just be a turn on in Papa John Phillip’s brood, otherwise, nahhhh…
Unless he were a Democrat, in which case he would win 81% of the 15,000 ballots which would come in – of the 10,000 sent out. All would have “Gregoire” – written in crayon – scribbled out…
hmmm I recall someone saying Hoffman jumped the shark by conceeding so quickly who was that?
oh yes it was ME
How can a representative be sworn in b4 the vote is certified is what I want to know. is that legal?
I read the link and this seems like it would run into some serious legal challenges. Not to mention that if any of the civil service employees that are not in management positions are represented (automatically not by choice) by the union; therefore, under the circumstances the union would be required to go to bat for the employee (whether they are a dues paying member or not). If the union did not go to bat for them or if they did not give it their best effort they would then face a legal battle that they truly do not want to have.
Management positions, which are not usually not represented by the unions, would have to go it alone, but I still would foresee legal challenges to this as they are no longer political appointees; therefore, they do not serve at the will of the president.
My question is if (and I agree with Chap that is a really big if)Hoffman wins and Owen was not the legitimate representative would they have to go back and have ownes’ votes stricken from the record?
In which case it would be that idiot Cao who would have put them over the top.
So, the position is open to a treasonous idiot and a principled one who couldn’t figure out what was going on….Peachy, just peachy.
Hoffman should not have conceded until the election was certified and his attorneys could find no election irregularitties to grasp on in appeal.
The real question is if Hoffman actually won, will they send Owens home?
The one thing that has irritated me about GOP/conservative politicians is how easily they give up when the race is close. They need to fight to the last breath.
Yes, it’s legal. The key is whether the election was uncontested. In this case, Hoffman conceded, so it was uncontested. But the swift swearing in (I believe on the day before the vote on the Health Care bill) is a great example of how cunning the Democrats are. Not only does the sworn official get into office, but all votes taken by that official, even if subsequently removed, are valid. Furthermore, the onus is then on the challenger to seek recounts or other legal options while that sworn official continues to sit and vote throughout any such proceedings.
Republicans need to become street fighters like the Democrats rather than continuing to play nice.
I think that what Owens did this week is going to cost him when he has to run for re-election in 2010. The question is will NY-23 get a real opponent to Owens then? This battle is not over in NY-23.
If the vote is certified in Hoffmann’s favor, he wins and must be seated. Period. His concession only gave Pelosi the right to seat Owens early. But because of the turncoat from Louisiana, the HC vote was academic anyway.
But, as has been said already, if it is too close the Dems will steal it ala Washington State’s Gregoire. We no longer have a representative Democracy in America — a Russian-style thugocracy is closer to it. Communism here we come.
I hope that Hoffman takes the lead and the election. I gave Owens more credit than he deserved earlier, as became evident when Owens immediately broke with his campaign promises.
They won 220. It is my understanding they only needed 218. So even removing Cao and Owens, you still got it. Right? Or am I missing something?
Truesoldier said:
It was a tad off topic but – I am looking at the Repub foolishness in NY23,I know full well Scuzzyfava would have switched parties at the drop of a hat and our Repub responces to damn near everything, nill or half baked.We all keep asking where are the conservatives in any branch of Gov and where is the outrage?
No, you got it right. That fight is probably over. However, if Hoffman does win, Owens should be removed, Hoffman should be sworn in and Hoffman should be allowed to enter his vote.
It won’t change the overall outcome of the socialist stupidity that has gripped this country but it would be the right thing to do.
Question: who provided Hoffman with the wrong information to begin with?
I have not done any investigation (that should be the media’s job) but I’ll bet that the Downstream Media had a hand in it.
I’d chalk it up to naivete and general cluelessness on the way things are as much as “niceness” on the Republican’s part, planetgeo.
If Hoffman wins, against all odds, and is certified by the state, will Owens be thrown out of the House, and will that vote he cast be reversed? Does that mean the bill passed by one vote, a Republican’s (Cao, R-LA)?? If that’s the way this comes out, keep me away from sharp objects.
Perhaps they are too busy in real jobs that keep whatever economy that we have functioning, to be able to find the time to run for office?
Not if it was the Dem that was behind. Just ask Norm Coleman.
What would be the ramifications if it turned out that in the final vote Hoffman is the winner, the prior vote tallies were fraudulent and dem. officials knew of this fraud, MSM knowingly reported fraudulent tallies, Democrats being aware of election fraud pushed for Owens to be hastily sworn in, and Pelosi rushed the vote knowing that ny23 might eventually go to a conservative? For now this is a crazy conspiracy theory, but imagine what if some of these suspicions are later verified?
True,
according to article owens would be sent back to NY due to State law and Hoffman won’t be put in as he conceeded read withdrew. While they don’t say I guess they have to have another special election!
As far as the vote in the house I have no idea, it wouldn’t change the outcome of the bills he is voting on anyway.
Too,
That will be important to learn for future, there should have been Hoffman people verifying the counts as they took place. Which would have set off red flags as they reported in to
HQ and the #s did not add up.
Ron,
to be clear HOFFMAN may win the vote count but as he conceeded in effect withdrawing his name he will not get the seat. owens wil be called back to NY and booted from seat.
Ron, not one vote, 2 votes. final tally was 220-215. You need to reverse 3 votes. If Owens lost, Hoffman would never have been hastily sworn in.
It would have been 219-215. You need two more vote reversals just for an even pass and then pelosi could decide the outcome. If the california congressman, who was also hastily sworn in – were discounted, you would have 218-215. Aside from the republican, we needed one more democrat to vote against this bill.
I think I see Owens out there in my parking lot checking car trunks for votes.
And this is Oklahoma!
She’s a lib, did you expect anything else?
Tre,
PULL
The folks up in NY-23 that worked for Hoffman campaign did a fantastic job.
We can learn from their efforts.
Also as a side issue but applicable:
looks as though Florida GOP party is having a lil house cleaning. That is going to be important going 4ward “we” need to get hands on the state party machinery, faggetabout the RNC.
DD is a clown end of discussion.
No, I’m missing my math class.
Another lesson we need to learn is that Conservatives need to identify and support their candidates early!!!
Democrats learned long ago that “Early Money is Like Yeast” and started EMILY’s list for their fundraising.
In a race this close, just imagine the results if Hoffman had received financial, volunteer and media support earlier!
Conservative candidates are hiring staff and need to pay for professional advice NOW for the 2010 elections!
Any donations made NOW will have a MUCH BIGGER impact than donations made in the last weeks of a campaign when it becomes hard to spend money effectively so quickly!
Early financial and volunteer support for Conservative candidates will also send a very direct signal to our current Representatives who are deciding how to vote on upcoming vitally important issues.
Let’s use the health care vote as a catalyst and get organized for 2010 NOW!!!
The next FEC reporting deadline for financial contributions is December 31. Democrats (and the RNC) will be scared to death if Conservatives report astronomical fundraising results on their 12/31 reports!!!
Let’s get this done!
Take out Owens and the traitor and you still have 218, unless there’s someone else involved.
Still, a late win for Hoffman, or even a much closed margin, means some pretty incredible things for the Tea Party movement.
RWR
http://www.rightwingrocker.com
Don’t you mean tea-bagger movement? /sarc