Insanity of the day
Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist:
Navy SEALs have secretly captured one of the most wanted terrorists in Iraq — the alleged mastermind of the murder and mutilation of four Blackwater USA security guards in Fallujah in 2004. And three of the SEALs who captured him are now facing criminal charges, sources told FoxNews.com.
The three, all members of the Navy’s elite commando unit, have refused non-judicial punishment — called an admiral’s mast — and have requested a trial by court-martial.
Ahmed Hashim Abed, whom the military code-named “Objective Amber,” told investigators he was punched by his captors — and he had the bloody lip to prove it.
Now, instead of being lauded for bringing to justice a high-value target, three of the SEAL commandos, all enlisted, face assault charges and have retained lawyers.
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Categories: Afghanistan,Ally McBeal approach,War
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This is how freedom finally dies.
We used to be able to count on the military to stand up against any attempt by a leftist government to hijack America, but now that we have a government that would clearly do it if they could, we also have a military run by politically correct jackasses like Casey.
Does anyone seriously think Casey wouldn’t back Obama if Obama tried to pull a Zelaya?
And the situation in the military is deteriorating.
The most DISGUSTING story I have seen this year!!! A SPLIT LIP??? They should have killed him, and chopped off his head and paraded it around as a lesson to all who adhere to THE RELIGION OF PEACE… Gooooo SEALS, you will be vindicated… Shame on the command officers who are allowing this travesty to come to fruition… Perhaps BECK was correct, advising all young people to avoid the MILITARY!!!
The fact that any competent officer even considered charging these men tells me volumes about how quickly Obama’s commissars are infiltrating the military.
Remember Patsy Schroeder during the Clinton years? She had numerous public and private vendettas against military officers and wrecked many good careers. A vindictive witch. Here we go again…
***
HI ARIZONA NEANDERTHAL–I also wonder what my WW2 Navy aviator Dad would have thought about Bill Clinton’s Oval Office tricks with Monica and his lying about it. Or about Comrade Obama’s actions as he trashes our country and military. He was a lifelong democrat who “stepped up to the plate” and enlisted on December 8, 1941. He died in 1997 before he could see this C**P–although he did vote for Jimmy Carter.
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And The Messiah’s comments about needing a “civilian” security force as strong as the U.S. Military are quite scary to me. Should we call them the S.S. or S.A.–or NKVD? A force like this is intended to “take down” our military when they refuse to take illegal orders from him. Like orders that violate the military oath all of us who served took to DEFEND AND PROTECT OUR CONSTITUTION (and Country) AGAINST ALL ENEMIES BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. I still honor this oath 45 years after having taken it when I was drafted into the U.S. Army–it applies today.
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King George III had some ideas about special military forces (HESSIANS) enforcing his will. George Washington gave the King a 1776 style education on how rights are enforced–re: SECOND AMENDMENT.
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John Bibb
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Ditto. They didn’t have to bring any charges. I heard this morning that there are 3 others member of the seal team that are not charged that said nothing happened.
Hmm. 3 accused said they didn’t do it , the other 3 there said no one did it. The a-hole terrorist who brutally killed many people claims they did and we go to trial. Bizarro world indeed.
I like this.
By the time Carter’s reign of ignorance came to an end, members of our military had announced they would not fight for him.
Its a simple equation either we’re strong enough to win or our enemies will be.
There’s no mediocre politician on the tally sheet there’s on a check mark in the W or L column.
L comes with a lot more bloodshed.
Further reflections on the topic:
The basic premise remains the same: If — IF — the SEALs in question did what the charges state, then they should be held accountable.
But first, remember that the operative word is “if.” Making accusations of abuse is typical for guys like the one the SEALs bagged in this instance, so that’s no surprise. The fact that they refused non-judicial punishment indicates that they may have valid defenses to the accusation.
After all, there are many ways in which a prisoner could get a split lip:
- He could’ve been resisting capture, and a sharp punch to the face while subduing him might’ve been the result. Or he could’ve landed on his face while being thrown down on the ground.
- Or the Iraqis to whom the SEALs turned him over may have hit him, then blamed the Americans for it.
- Or the guy did it to himself to buttress a false abuse claim.
So it’s entirely possible that this whole episode will amount to nothing, just like the accusations of “atrocities” at Haditha did.
On the other hand, if the SEALs being charged did indeed rough the guy up after he was in custody, the regulations are quite clear. And no, they have nothing to do with the current administration.
When I joined the Army in 1979, the training regimen for what to do with prisoners was quite clear: in addition to searching and securing him, segregating him, keeping him silent and speeding him to the rear, the prisoner is to be safeguarded from abuse – from anybody. That includes the guys who captured him and the guys who are guarding him. Indeed, one of the charges in the current instance is “Willfully failing to safeguard a prisoner.”
None of this changed as the years went by. You couldn’t beat on prisoners during the Reagan Administration, or the Bush I Administration, or the Clinton Administration, or the Bush II Administration — or now.
The current episode has zero to do with Hope-a-Dope’s mishandling of his duties as CiC; them’s just the rules… and as we said during my Army days, “Deal with it.” You don’t have to like regulations or approve or them, but you do have to follow them — or be prepared to accept the consequences if you don’t.
And there’s no “SOCOM Exception” to the regulations. If anything they must apply with even more vigor to our elite warriors. The best have to set the example, not act like they’re somehow immune to the same UCMJ that everybody else is expected to comply with.
On top of that, the hallmark of the SOCOM warrior is not his brawn or his mastery of weapons and tactics. It’s his mental discipline, measured in part by his ability to keep his composure, professionalism and military bearing when others may lose theirs.
If the accused SEALs did what they are accused of, then they probably weren’t good SEAL material to begin with.
It has nothing to do with “being better than our enemies.” Who cares about abstract notions of winning some weird “beauty pageant” against them? No, it’s a straightforward application of our own policies and regulations concerning basic standards of prisoner treatment that have existed for at least the last 30 years, and probably much longer than that.
Praise and criticism are not matter and anti-matter, as some seem to believe. You can be worthy of both at the same time. The SEALs certainly deserve praise for accomplishing a difficult mission, one that “ordinary” warriors couldn’t have pulled off. But if they did abuse the prisoner, the ends don’t justify throwing the regulations out the window, as in “Yeah, we roughed the guy up, but it felt good and he really deserved it!” This is real life, not a Hollywood movie in which at the end the protagonist gets to punch his nemesis in the jaw as a cathartic release for the theater audience.
Some people seem unable to make that distinction.
Regulus, with all due respect, you are missing the point. If there was solid evidence against them, they would not have demanded a trial.
This is being done by their superiors to score points with their superiors on up the chain of command.
If there is solid proof they engaged in vigilantism in a controlled setting where the prisoner was passive, then of course the rules have to be followed, but we already have good reason to believe that is not the case.
If they had solid evidence against you, would you have ensured much more severe punishment by demanding a trial?
Think about it. They are punishing our heroes because a terrorist claimed abuse. Zawahiri is laughing his ass off at us.
Two things:
1)
ABSOLUTELY!
2)
“They hit me! WAAAAAAAAA! They actually hit me! WAAAAAAAA! I know i’ve chopped off heads, killed women and children indiscriminately and generally don’t deserve to live, but, but, but… WAAAAAA! They hit me!”
Sissy in the light, like most bullies.
Maybe someone has already pointed this out, but I have to chime in:
Whether it was “proper” or not, what we’re talking about is a fat lip. Does that really rise to the level of disciplinary action? Really?!?!
If I were a Muslim jahadist murderer who had just been captured by Americans, I’d do whatever was necessary to bloody myself up so that I could accuse my captors of doing it to me, because that will most certainly get me off from any of the atrocities that I had committed.
It’s getting to the point where I won’t make any sense to capture these guys anymore. If they drop their arms and give up, our guys will simply blow them away them and do whatever they can to make it look like they died in battle.
I don’t think these liberals get it. We aren’t fighting a 21st century enemy here. We’re fighting a 17th century enemy who doesn’t understand or respect our PC society. They will use it against us and come back for more.
They ONLY understand force. I believe we should give it to them the way they want it.
No prisoners. Ever.
Get registered to vote. Get your neighbors and friends registered to vote. Be ready to VOTE in 2010 and 2012.
The Court Martial will be held at Norfork, Virginia. If the poor abused and mis-used jihadi will be available for cross examination is to be determined due to the sensitive nature of this case-Office of the Judge Advocate General.
Those jihadis who brought down the Twin Towers get to face their accusers-but perhaps not these SEALs.They are going to crucify these young men for not taking the Admirals Mast.
Again: Some day this county will call upon it’s young men to defend us and the silence will be deafening. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
This starts in the White House and extends to the Pentagon. Remember the Marine Col. they court martialed . He was found not guilty, but they are still going after him. These politically correct Generals and Admirals are no better than Obama in their destruction of our military.Also the destruction of this country!
Which seems perfectly reasonable to Allahpundit at Hot Air.
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/24/three-navy-seals-court-martialed-after-giving-most-wanted-iraqi-terrorist-a-fat-lip/
Interesting.
Regulus – Your points are well taken, but of course we are all in hypothetical land here anyway. Likely as not the only witnesses to the alledged event are the SEALS and the not-so-honorable Mr. Abed, who by all accounts has already killed four Americans and dragged their burnt corpses through the streets. Knowing the incredibly high standards a person must meet to even be a SEAL, I’ll go with their version.
If indeed there are no other witnesses, how do you think the court would decide?
Face facts. The Obama Administration is the single greatest enemy of this nation and everything it stands for. Bowing to the Communist Chinese Thug-In-Chief? Bringing these SEALs up on charges for capturing this slime?
The word is out: Do you duty and go to jail! Diversity is more important than the lives of soldiers!
I wonder what re-enlistment rates are going to look like in a year or two?
On November 25th, 2009 at 12:44 pm, Regulus said:
Exactly! and your analysis is well written too.
These charges are not about a fat lip they are about the discipline and good order of the military. If our best can’t be trusted to safeguard a prisoner. To follow our own rules, regulations and laws regarding their conduct when an enemy is in captivity. Then, can they be entrusted to enact very cold, skilled and controlled violence with absolute precision and control? If the answer is no then you don’t have a force that is worth anything in a war (defined as the controlled application of force to coerce a political end) except a violent mob. Mobs don’t win wars.
Highly skilled and disciplined personnel and their leadership do.
I find myself in unfamiliar territory defending the REMF careerists who become the top brass of our nation.
They’re not the enemy and they mean well. They must publicly always defer to the National Command Authority no matter what they may think or argue behind closed doors or in private. If the National Command Authority says that Diversity is Important then it is so. The people at General Officer and Flag Officer ranks aren’t too much different than most other people. Some believe that if the National Command Authority is in error, they can mitigate those errors by staying where they are rather than let some “yes” man take their place. Others may be as wrong-headed as some here claim. But ultimately, the tone and tenor of their behavior is dependent on the National Command Authority. The head of which was the winner of the last Presidential election. You may not personally have voted for him but the majority of the States did and he also won the popular ballot. If you wish to blame anyone, blame your neighbors and yourselves first. You, the American Citizenry and the Senators you maintain in office are totally and completely responsible for what all of us are now reaping.
1) It IS possible that the Navey Seals had something to do with this guy getting a fat lip.
What do people expect? These Jihadis are violent thugs. Do they expect them to come along peacefully, or do they expect the Navy Seals to “use the force” like Yoda, or like Darth Vader, and make them come along without any coercion, or without the thugs causing trouble?
If the fat lip was caused in whole or in part by the Navy Seals, so what?
If they were not out-and-out thugs themselves then they are within the limits of expected behavior under the circumstances.
2) I take it that this thug, this Jihadi, is a Muslim.
As people must know, Muslims are taught to lie to Infidels. It is part of their training and upbringing.
It is not unlikely that this Jihadi is lying. They tend to do that.
Yes-I do believe the jihadis have been watching our news, learning from Murtha, Kerry, Durbin and other such Fifth Columnist/traitors to claim abuse and thus strike one more blow for allah against the Great Satan and infidels everywhere. Cowards in senior command enable them. Even if-hopefully-they are exonerated any hope of a naval career is over-thus they are punished in the name of political correctness.
Cowards and traitors serve no useful purpose.
***
I worked with an older man–a technician–who had been a WW2 Army Major. He had been parachuted into Yugoslavia with a radio operator and radio to co-ordinate guerrilla actions against the Nazis there. He set up supply airdrops, reported on German movements, etc.
***
He told me about a convoy ambush on a narrow mountain road where the partisan group he was working with had killed about 20 Germans and captured about 10 more Germans–and a few Yugoslavs who were working with the Krauts.
***
The prisoners were tied together and a few partisans marched them along the road. The Major asked what was going to happen to them–the partisan leader said they were being taken to a prisoner of war camp. A few minutes later–after they were out of sight–the Major heard a few bursts of submachine gun fire. When he went to investigate all the prisoners were dead at the side of the road–still tied together. The “guards” (aka executioners) claimed that the prisoners had all tried to run away and escape!
***
After this the Major sent his radio operator Sergeant along with the “guards” to make sure all prisoners made it alive to the prisoner camp.
***
No “bloody lip” stuff in the old days! But the Major did honor the Geneva Convention and rules of war–even for the Yugoslav traitors. He had enough “leverage” with the partisan leader to make it happen.
***
For many years–when Tito was still dictator of Yugoslavia–the Major was invited to return and see his comrades in arms again.
***
John Bibb
***
On November 26th, 2009 at 7:51 am, ArizonaNeanderthal said:
Ok, on Kerry, Murtha, Durbin, Schumer et alia I’m in complete agreement. You can even add to that list the “dithering idiot” who occupies the Oval Office.
But you can call them other things, but most of those you label ‘cowards’ have proven their courage. I couldn’t be political enough to attain those exalted ranks. I’ve despised several of them, Eric Shinseki and Peter Schoonmaker among them. But it was Shinseki who tried to get Donald Rumsfeld to see sweet reason regarding the use of contractors instead of Soldiers and the number of troops needed to secure Iraq and failed. He did so bravely and mostly in an unheralded series of battles behind closed doors.
These are men, ordinary men most of them who fear for their jobs, have families to provide for and think that they can make a difference. They are politicians in uniform. More times then not, they have to compromise and negotiate and try to mitigate the sometimes great stupidity of their civilian leaders who are blissfully ignorant of the military realities and have never served a day in their lives in military service much less combat. It is a thankless job most of the time. People like myself disapprove of how little they accomplish no matter how hard fought their battles because we see the cost in human lives. People like you, call them coward or worse despite not realizing how hard and well they’ve fought since they can’t bring it out into the open by regulation, law and custom.
I don’t have to like it or them. Neither do you. But they generally aren’t cowards by a long shot. Just Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen who fight their battles in a field of politics rather than combat.
Are you new, ssnark?
I hadn’t noticed you until a few weeks ago, but I must say you are a great poster and welcome addition. I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts.
On November 27th, 2009 at 5:35 pm, chapoutier said:
Not so new just recently retired so can now say what I couldn’t while in uniform.
Well, you are certainly on my short list of “Posters to stand up and pay attention to.”
On November 27th, 2009 at 8:30 pm, chapoutier said:
Thank you. I hope that I can be informative and provoke people into thought.
I really, really hate to do this….but, the parallels between now and the years of Vietnam are becoming more apparent every day. The problem, as recognized by General Schwartzenager (sp?), Commandant Kelly, and others was that the majority of the field grade and above officer corps during Vietnam were comprised of those who made rank by seniority and ‘not ruffling feathers’. It seems that despite all the reforms put into the military promotional system, the old rise to rank of the dim and the dumbest by reverse natural selection is again occurring – when you don’t do anything, you can’t be reprimanded. Unlike some others, I do believe in the military justice system (caveat – as long as the defendants have civilian representation) to come to a fair and true conclusion. The second parallel is that the politicians are injecting themselves into the military operations side of the war. As we all learned in Vietnam, the politician’s strategy swings with the winds of political polling. The current ROE’s are absurd and responsible for more death and injury to our own forces than by direct enemy action. We are at war and we need to prosecute the enemy as such, unfortunately, as one military historian once pointed out, a democracy will not support a drawn out war. We are dealing with a 17th Century foe who lives by the sword and must perish by the sword. I personally believe it’s time to remove the 21st Century gloves, paint crosses on the tails of the aircraft, launch the next crusade and be done with it. But then, I’m a radical….
On November 28th, 2009 at 6:51 am, Sea_Dog said:
Schwartkopf whom I think you meant, (Schwarznegger served in the Austrian Army for two years) was far too junior an officer at the time that conclusion was made. It was actually under the watches of Generals, Creighton C. Abrams and Edward Meyer that those ‘lessons learned’ were made part of the organizational knowledge of the US Army. (I’ll let a friend of mine explain if it ever became institutional knowledge in the Austrian Army.)
Despite my many complaints that the Rear Echelon Mine Finders and “Personnel” MOSs get the promotions to General Officer. I’d have to disagree. These are well educated and among the brightest men and women in the Army. They are also more politician than Field Officer as reflected generally in their backgrounds. If one looks at retired General Eikenberry’s credentials you’ll see he spent much of his career with the exception of a ‘ticket punching’ couple of stints in Battalion and Brigade level command as a diplomat and staff officer. On the other side of the fence you have General McChrystal who spent a good part of his time in the command of units in the field with enough staff time to give him an appreciation of those areas of command. Somewhere in the middle you have General Petraeus who has a career path that went from staff to field with a good bit of academic study thrown in and rather remarkable performance in the field. General George Casey was commissioned through the ROTC and has served in a number of Infantry, Mechanized Infantry and Cavalry leadership positions from Platoon Leader (3 times) to Company Commander, Battalion Commander, Brigade Commander and Division Commander before taking the reins at MNF-I (Multinational Force – Iraq) with enough staff time to appreciate the role and duties of a staff officer. His three platoon commands moving from 2nd Bn 509th (Abn)’s mortar platoon to an infantry platoon in A. Co. to 1st Bn 509th (Abn)’s A Co. mortar platoon. Shows that he was a leader who could be counted on for results in a time when the Army was transitioning from the draft to an all volunteer force and shrinking by nearly half its size (2.5 million to 1.4 million). These are hardly stupid or dim or dumb men. All have advanced degrees and have proven themselves as capable leaders (with the exception of Eikenberryand you might note which of these retired before achieving a fourth star and ask why.) all have served in combat and have developed a faithful core staff who are known for being able to think on their feet and put thought into action.
These men are neither cowards nor stupid. But each and every one of them will follow the orders of the civilian National Command Authority and obey those orders explicitly unless they violate the UCMJ or their duty to the Constitution of the United States. Just as I did and if recalled would do again. They are despite the epithets and derision heaped upon them by both liberals and conservatives alike doing their duty as laid down by their commissions, Federal law and in their oath.
I too believe in the system of military justice far more than I believe in the civilian system that passes itself off as a system of justice. But to a large part that is because I believe in the faith, honor, integrity, self control and full obedience to civilian control that the US military demands of its personnel and most especially of its Officers. My experience is that these were imbued into me and for the most part into all of those I’ve served with or under.
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HI SEA DOG and SSNARK. Good insights on our military. It seems that to get above O5 (Lieutenant Colonel in the Army) political skills often count much more than the “basic” military skills. They seem to have to “go along to get along”. And most successful military men don’t give their opinion unless asked–and then they give it once only.
***
Like General Schwartzkof did during the first Gulf War when President Bush asked him if we had “gone far enough” after 4 days of ground action. The General said “no”–the Prez said “yes”. And this put the second war against Iraq on the horizon. Saddam could have been taken down during the first war.
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The other “good” example was General McArthur. He was right from a military standpoint when he wanted to nuke the Chinese army forming up against our forces North of the Yalu. He was wrong from the political standpoint.
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President Truman saw it differently–and he was the person who had to make the decision. We wouldn’t be facing the NORK nukes now if the president had acted differently. And the fall of the Soviet Union might have happened 40 years sooner. But hindsight is perfect–and decisions are made in realtime.
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President Lincoln had a lot of problems finding the right field commander–General (and later President) Grant with the right combination of obedience and clear vision to win our Civil War. And these problems still persist in our wars to this day.
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John Bibb
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I can’t add anything to the above posts. So I’ll just say this.
I love my country but I hate our president.