Sigh: ‘Tis the season…to start targeting Christmas again
Thanksgiving’s over. Time for the war on Christmas to begin anew. Groan. Goodbye, C*****mas tree. Hello, “diversity!”
The latest battlefield? Orange County, CA. Really:
The removal of a Christmas tree from the Orange County Superior courthouse Monday has prompted a petition among court employees to have the tree – connected to a gift drive for poor children – put back.
The six-foot artificial tree, which was adorned with tags seeking toy donations to ‘Operation Santa Claus,’ was removed Monday after a member of the public complained about the tree being in the courthouse, court spokeswoman Gwen Vieau said.
“It’s a public building and we have to serve the diversity of our community,” she said.
The tree had been put up in the courthouse every holiday season for about 20 years, said Orange County Sheriff’s Special Officer Cynthia Guerrero, who runs the courthouse’s ‘Operation Santa Claus’ effort. She was ordered to take down the tree.
Members of the public would come and grab tags – which sought donations for specific children. Last year, the courthouse got 374 presents for the toy drive.
But courthouse employees want the tree back up, and are circulating a petition among courtrooms. As of this afternoon, about 30 people had signed the petition.
The public outcry led the courthouse to retreat late Friday:
Orange County Superior Court officials decided to put a Christmas tree back in the courthouse lobby today after receiving dozens of complaints from court staff.
The tree – which was part of a solicitation of toy donations for needy children and has been a tradition in the courthouse for more than 20 years – was taken down earlier this week after a member of the public complained about it.
Upset court staff started circulating a petition to put the six-foot artificial tree back. The court also received dozens of complaints about the tree’s removal.
Court officials changed their mind and this afternoon, the tree was placed back in the lobby – adorned with tags encouraging donations to Operation Santa Claus.
“After assessing the situation, including case law on similar circumstances, and giving serious weight to the concerns expressed by staff, Judge (Kim) Dunning has concluded these trees are permissible for display in our lobbies,” the court’s chief executive officer, Alan Carlson, said in a statement. Dunning is the court’s presiding judge.
As for all the lefties who will soon start complaining about all the complaining over the Christmas battles:
If you people would stop having conniptions over the sight of festive trees and decorations, there would be no war of which to speak.
Chillax.
***
The GAP chain launches its own volley with “Happy Whatever-you-Wannakah.” Cue the eye roll:
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Why is it diminished? Real simple, Chappy.
People tend to enjoy traditions. If they have become accustomed to seeing a creche or a Christmas tree in the town square or courthouse grounds, that starts to feel like a part of Christmas to them.
Does it have to be there? No. But it’s nice that is. It reaffirms their sense of community. People tend to like that feeling.
These things are decorations. They are not about laws. It doesn’t mean anyone has to follow that religion.
What is the point in telling someone they can’t enjoy something that is harmless, so no real adverse effect on anyone or anything?
It’s JUST a decoration.
Then why exactly can’t you understand (or respect) how a Christian could have…(fill in the blank)
When did I say you could not?
Jangar:
I understand it just fine having been a Christian before. As far as respect, What are you talking about? I am certainly not going to respect the idea that some people go to hell for paltry reasons (for example). I am certianly not going to repsect any ideas that are clearly scientifically false. In short, I am not going to repsect any ideas that don’t deserve respect.
What exactly about your particular faith is it that you don’t think I give enough repsect to?
zero:
Bottom line – Christians have convictions concerning life and life after death, and it is out of love toward fellow humans that we attempt to share very valuable information about it with the hope that those who do not understand may have a better understanding about their choice. I know you understand this concept, but please understand why we do what we do. Have a good day…got lots to do.
Pure:
What if those same people are accostomed to just seeing white people around Christmas and then those damn Asians show up with Buddha and Vishnu. That makes really annoy them.
*That must really annoy them
Pure:
The Universe itself is tangible and life-affirming to me.
jangar:
I certainly understand one’s desires to want to save another person from the fires of hell but frankly it’s insulting.
You might as well show up at some completely alien culture and basically tell them that they are doing everything wrong, are heathens, and must do things your way.
Oh wait… that’s happened a lot.
jangar:
You have a good day too.
On December 3rd, 2009 at 9:18 am, zeroangel said:
Pure:
If they have become accustomed to seeing a creche or a Christmas tree in the town square or courthouse grounds, that starts to feel like a part of Christmas to them.
What if those same people are accostomed to just seeing white people around Christmas and then those damn Asians show up with Buddha and Vishnu. That makes really annoy them.
—————————————
Sorry, Zero, but I have to call you out on this one. Someone makes reference to people who are used to seeing certain displays this time of year and come to expect it, and you imply that those same people are racist and/or would be offended by a public display that acknowledged any holiday other than Christmas? Again I say, chillax.
How can youTake
throw out suchaa
stupid slur without giving it the
Ritalin
tiniest ammount of thought?jangar:
One more thing that is a problem I have with your valuable information, it makes no sense to me at all. Short of losing my mind, there is no way I am ever going to except the idea of an invisible super being.
I feel exactly the same way about Yahweh as you might feel about the god Mercury.
Pure:
How can youTakeEat
throw out such aamy
stupid slur without giving it theRitalintiniest ammount of thought?shorts.
frostrt:
I used race as an analogy. I’m sorry, but is there a better one? What kind of jerks would / should get annoyed if one year, next to thier Christmas display a Buddhist statue showed up? Or even (gasp!) a Secular Humanist display.
They are the ones that need to Chillax.
frostrt:
You might have to go back and read the previous posts leading up to that one for context. Chap mentioned some other displays next to the Christmas one.
Okay, then I don’t want to hear any reports about birthday cakes.
pure:
I’m sorry, why? Why can’t I celebrate me having made another complete trip around the sun?
How can youTake
Eatthrow out such aa
mystupid slur without giving it theRitalin
tiniest ammount of thought?shorts.What kind of jerks would / should get annoyed if one year, next to thier Christmas display a Buddhist statue showed up? Or even (gasp!) a Secular Humanist display.
They are the ones that need to Chillax.
—————————————
Agreed on that point. I just maybe wasn’t thinking about all of Chap’s posts and felt the implication of racism/religious bigotry in yours was a bit strong.
As I said before, better everyone should have their say than no one. (If I come across a pro-satanism diaplay, no skin off my nose; I believe my Guy already won
)
http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/Q-AtheistSymbolBK.gif
Just about 2000 years of rational inquiry and philosophy starting with the Greeks. Nothing special…
Then let’s do it another way…
Some day zerojunior will be a toddler, toddling around the house. The stove is on. He wants to touch it. Out of love you stop him from doing this, instead of allowing him to make the mistake and suffer the peril. That is what love does.
I get it that you wish not to believe. So be it. I have done my part.
frostrt:
Intersting thing about the actual “Church of Satan” :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan
They are atheists that have just tried to come up with some kind of tradition. Many of their values and ideas are not evil at all and they don’t worship any dark lord. It’s strange why they would call themselves “Satanists” but I think it was done for some kind of shock value. Frankly, I think that’s a bit stupid and counterproductive, but it’s still interesting. It does kind of give other atheists a bad name, but whaever, I imagine that anyone that takes them seriously is probably already convinced all atheists are tools of Satan anyhow (like Dan from earlier).
Jangar:
A stove is a tangible, real thing in the real world. A Deity (Yahweh, Mercury, Zeus or otherwise) is not.
Wrong. Sometimes I wish I could. Sometimes I wish I was as blissfully ignorant as some people and able to accept bronze age myths. It’s not that I wish not to believe. It’s that I simply can’t. Why don’t you get this? Do you wish not to believe in Zeus? Of course not. You just don’t because Zeus is not real.
As I have said before, I agree. I do not support those that object to such trifling things.
But let’s be honest about two things.
First, a minority of Christians, strongly represented on this site, have gotten spoiled. Even if there were a tree up in the public square, that’s not good enough. There must be a tree and only a tree or else the tree is diminished. Private companies, decked out to the nines in trees and decoration, are still boycotted by people who object to them greeting with “Happy Holidays” rather than “Merry Christmas.” How freaking petty is that? Someone here said they “corrected” a store greeter who said “Happy Holidays” before voiding their transaction. I am sorry but it is pathetic that one is so insecure in one’s faith that one needs constant validation from a BUSINESS.
People here harp on atheists complaining about Christmas decorations, saying they are being overly sensitive over something that is –in your words– harmless, and then turn right around and complain about acknowledgments of Kwanzaa or whatever Muslim holiday is being acknowledged or (to a lesser extent) Hanukkah. And they miss the extreme hypocrisy. In fact it goes beyond mere hypocrisy–what the Christians do is worse. As far as I have ever heard, atheists have only ever objected to religious decoration on GOVERNMENT property. You may feel that is petty and not supported by Constitutional law, but at least it has some basis and is quite limited in scope. The harping from the Christian side, however goes far beyond. Not only must the public square be free of all other religious iconography, but all private enterprise as well. Case in point: the Gap commercial above. Christians claim exclusive domain on the “reason for the season,” totally ignoring the fact that Christmas is a relative latecomer. Certainly the pagan rituals and Hanukkah predate it.
Second, those same minority of Christians have grossly exaggerated the issue to the point of opening themselves up to parody. Any perceived slight equals the downfall of Christmas and tradition and all that is good and pure in the world. Do I think it is silly to ban Christmas trees (or creches) in the public square? Yup. But guess what? Turn around in your spot 360 degrees and dollars to doughnuts you will find one somewhere else, either gracing a home, a business, or a church. Christmas acknowledgment is EVERYWHERE. Certainly far more prevalent that any other religion and I would argue probably overrepresented. Christians make up 78.5% of the country. I would guarantee that more than 78.5% of the decoration out there is Christmas-centric. But again, going back to the first point, that is not enough for some.
Again, you talk about the traditions of a shared community, but why the courthouse or town square has come to represent the end-all-be-all definition of community is beyond me. And like I said, frankly contradictory. It is like conservatives are for limited government in every aspect EXCEPT Christmas decoration. Why don’t you consider your church or your neighborhood the central physical aspect of your community?
Zero:
I agree with you about the “shock value” point. If they don’t “worship” satan, God, Jesus, or anything else, it is strange that they would want to put the stigma of the word “satan” onto themselves.
I once saw a T.V. interview with a representative from the organization that put up the anti-religion sign by the Nativity and Menorah last year; he was ranting (no other way to put it) about the Winter Solistice being “stolen” by Christians (we’ve been all over the history of that; “stolen is a rather strong word, I think “adopted” may be more appropriate). I thought to myself, hey, wait, it was a Pagan festival, and I would guess that, whatever else they are, Pagans would not call themselves atheists; the worship of Nature as a diety is not the same at all as saying there are no diety/dieties at all.
frostrt:
I’m not sure what you are getting at. I think the point the representitive was trying to make was the same as I made before: that is, it’s not exclusively a Christian holiday.
Chap:
Excellent post.
I’m not sure what you are getting at. I think the point the representitive was trying to make was the same as I made before: that is, it’s not exclusively a Christian holiday.
—————————————
My point was that he talked about being “stolen from” and “dictated to”, when in fact, he can celebrate Christmas the way you do, as a non-religious holiday, or the Winter Solistice, or nothing. If he chooses to be offended by Christmas/other holiday decorations because he chooses to participate in none of them, that is his issue.
I also saw the irony in an avowed atheist saying that the Solistice was “stolen” from him/others like him, when, as we know, it was a Pagan festival, and Pagans are not in fact atheists.
I finally got around to watching the Gap commericial just now. It was super-cheese-’o-rific.
But I liked the mention of the Solstice, so I guess it’s not so bad.
frostrt:
I see what you are saying, however I think you are missing the context of that exchange last year.
I didn’t agree with the methods the atheists used (their original sign was kind of overly cruel). HOWEVER, I respected the point they were trying to make. They had their sign stolen as well, and that was just wrong. They were rightfully pissed.
As far as pagans vs. atheists. Sure, pagans are not atheists, however, I think what he was drving at was that Christmas was “stolen” from basically everyone else not Christian.
Speaking of Satanists…
I had an English professor in college who had a side interest in studying the occult scares in the 1980s…you know…some kid listening to death metal kills himself or others and then the whole community becomes consumed, thinking there is a satanic cult operating in the town. It was all very Salem Witch Trial-ish. He sometimes pops up as a “talking head” on shows about the occult around Halloween.
Anyway, this little side specialty nailed him a dinner with Anton LaVey. My professor described him as being so polite and controlled as to be really creepy. They apparently discussed everything BUT satanism, the occult or religion.
It was super-cheese-’o-rific.
————————————–
Also cheese-tastic!
If by cheese-’o-rific, you mean grating to my senses (get it? GRATING! HAH!) then you are right.
chap:
Years ago, my parents freaked out from something they saw on the news and took away our Dungeons and Dragons stuff for about a month.
That’s actually kind of neat.
Zero:
No, the sign should not have been stolen by anyone. If you want to challenge the group’s right to put it on public property on the grounds that it violates the state’s ban on hate-speech, or because it is a government endorsement of atheism, that’s one thing. But you don’t just take something down yourself because you don’t like it.
As for Christmas being “stolen” from non-Christians, again, it is a holiday they can choose to participate in or not, and celebrate in a religious way or not. I do not feel it is a matter of “stealing”. I do not feal that Hannukah was “stolen” from me because I am not a Jew and therefore do not participate, likewise with Kwanzaa or the Solistice.
They apparently discussed everything BUT satanism, the occult or religion.
————————————–
Interesting that they didn’t talk about the one thing your Professor was apparently most interested in about him.
G
frostrt:
“Stolen” is a strong word sure. However, there certainly is the attitude from many in this thread that they have some kind of ownership of the holiday. I can understand why someone would use the wrod “stolen” when faced with people like that.
Years ago, my parents freaked out from something they saw on the news and took away our Dungeons and Dragons stuff for about a month.
—————————————
No Dungeons and Dragons! Talk about damnation!
It wasn’t really meant to be an interview. Besides, my prof could READ about his religious views. His apparent dalliance with Marylin Monroe would be far more interesting.
It wasn’t really meant to be an interview. Besides, my prof could READ about his religious views. His apparent dalliance with Marylin Monroe would be far more interesting.
—————————————
I wasn’t aware of an “apparent dalliance” with Marilyn Monroe, although I have heard of Mr. LaVay. I can see why your Prof might have been more interested in that. And I guess you could learn all you wanted to know about his spirituality by reading his writing.
I remember pre-Monster Thread when 539 comments was kind of a big deal.
These days… meh.
On December 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 am, zeroangel said:
I remember pre-Monster Thread when 539 comments was kind of a big deal.
These days… meh.
————————————–
Politics and religion . . . combine the two in a thread, and you get enough comments to make a thesis.
In most of the small communities where I grew up, the courthouse physically is the center of the town grid. It just seems natural.
A town square is a gathering place for all the residents. There may be several churches and schools, but the town square is for all.
They are NOT exaggerating. There is definitely a culture war going on throughout the country. Christians everywhere see that their faith is under attack. Christmas is just one aspect. And we do tend to see this as attack on the American way of life, not just mere slights.
Chaps, when it’s someone else’s cause that’s at stake, it’s easy to minimize.
If the country is 78% Christian, how can you say we are overrepresented in Christmas displays?
If it’s only decoration, not a statement of policy or law, what difference does it make? Why wouldn’t a community want to express the majority culure, the most long-standing culture?
In several parts of St. Louis, you see buildings decorated with Christian and Jewish symbols. That accurately reflected the cultural make-up of those areas. No one has a problem with that,
Excuse me, but when someone storms out of a store in a huff because the greeter says “Happy Holidays” then, yes…they are exaggerating.
Because about 95% of the stuff you see is Christmas related? I mean lets not be silly and require some sort of mathematical formula, but it only goes to show the absurdity of complaining about what small percentage of that Christmas may have lost between The Andy Griffith Show and now.
Again, equating your community to your government. That is very liberal of you.
Just saw this on a friend’s Facebook page:
Oh, I totally agree with you about that one instance. I’m talking about the big picture.
Oh come on, Chaps! If you see 95% Christmas stuff it’s because 95% of the people in that area are Christian! It’s not that way everywhere! But the availability of goods is not the issue.
The issue is cultural power.
Why thank you. LOL
It really is not possibly to separate the community and the government. The government IS the community. It is all culturally interwoven.
I don’t know why all the atheists here are so hysterical and feeling so oppressed. The fact is the secularists are winning the cultural war in this country. Winning by a wide margin, in fact.
Actually the situation in my home county seat town wasn’t about Christmas
decorations. It was about a Ten Commandments monument. One person who was affiliated with the local college and lived in a trailer south of town complained about it to the ACLU. The town government caved in because fighting the lawsuit would cost too much. I’d say probably half the yards in the area had a sign protesting this. Didn’t matter.
Is seeing all this Christmas stuff is so annoying to you, why don’t you move somewhere away from all of it?
That’s what most people do. They choose to live in a place where they feel comfortable culturally.
correction: If seeing
I never said it was annoying, and you know that. What I have said is annoying are people that complain it is not 100%.
Frankly, I can’t tell by the way you phrase things.
Tried doing the peanut brittle again?
Okay, here goes:
The existence or non-existence of God cannot be proved or disproved (even citing “lack of scientific evidence”). It is a matter of “faith” to believe in God or not, and faith is not logical in the sense of being capable of being proved or disproved.
Certain Christians need to stop having a coronary every time a store clerk wishes them “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”, or every time someone successfully sues to have a Nativity scene or other Christmas/religious decoration removed from public property.
Certain atheists need to stop being offended by every public display of Christmas, Hannukah, or Whatever that they see and find something better to do than cry to the ACLU. The earlier poster was correct; a decoration does not equal a law or an attempt to force all people to believe in the religion it represents.
C’est La Vie.
Que Sera Sera.
Thanks to Zero, Chappy, and all for some very lively debate.
I’m out.
Oh, before I go, one more Merry Christmas and Happy Whatever to all!
Thanks, frostrt.
I agree that people just need to ease up and get along.
It really isn’t that hard.
Not yet. I am going to buy a thermometer.
Oh hay, sup projection, how u doin’ broheim?
I know what projection is, Jeddite.
We’re not hysterical Christians here.
We’ve just provoked by zerohead.
What the normal language translation?
Pure:
Oh for god sake. No one is “oppressed” because, thank goodness, we have the Constitution to protect us. We are, however, (according to many polls) not very well liked (unless we pretend to be religious, that is, lie) and definitely unfairly stereotyped rather often.
*snort* Riiight… aside from the fact that it’s damn near a requirement to be Christian (and not any other religion or non-religion) to hold the highest office (or mainly any office with some exceptions). Do you even know what secularism is? It isn’t atheism.
The town government caved because they knew damn well that they would lose.
Yah nasty ‘ole zero, provoking people by objecting to steoreotypes and not doing what he should: STFU and go to the back of the bus.
Frostrt:
I’d rather wish they would just put up their own displays right next to them, but you know how that always turns out.
Thank you and take care.
Nobody is telling you to go to the back of the bus.
It would be grand improvement if you would SFTU about insulting Christians all the time and making sweeping stereotypical statements about them.
You can really dish it out but you can’t take it.
Yes, and I meant it the way I used it.
Now, cork it with the insults.
You could be nice it you wanted to but you’d rather fight.
Yep, they did. Not that it’s a good situation but that was the reality.
Pure:
Several folks in this thread almost certainly would like to have Christian displays on public property and not allow any kind of Humanist display (or anything else). Chap already pointed this out to you.
Quote me. I can’t help if you take it as an insult that I tell you I think your religion is a myth. You would say the exact same thing about many other religions. Are you insulting them? Furthermore, where do I steorotype all Christians? More times than I can count I have said something to the effect of, “I know most Christians aren’t like this.” In fact, I think (I hope) most are like frostrt. You don’t see her falling apart.
LOL. Pot, Kettle.
Grow some thicker skin, honestly. That was no insult. There will be no question when I start the insults. Observe the way WE82 gets it.
When I am nice you just say that I am not being sincere. It’s hopeless to try.
Pure:
…and why do you think they would lose? Why did they think they would lose?
Pure:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4710
Check out that comic.
Did they state that expressly or are you assuming?
BTW, previously I could have said secular humanism.
The only time you say something “nice”, it doesn’t sound at all personal to me.
Then you undo whatever goodwill you might have created with a nasty retort.
With any luck, Kingfish might show up here if he doesn’t call me back first.
Or he might do both.
As I have said, the problem is yours.
LOL. …and you will never recognize that the nice things I said in this thread were in response to your nasty and sarcastic, “Can’t you say anything nice?”
Log in your eye?
I rather hope he does. I hope he can smooth this over. I have repeatedly tried to extend an olive branch to you.
I just did. My reaction? Jesus would not have done that.
Sounds a lot like you ranting about Christians.
At least one has said he “corrects” people who say “Happy Holidays” and this isn’t even on government property.
So you honestly think a person like that would allow a comprimise of putting a secular humanist tablet next to the ten commandments?
Pure:
No kidding. However, plenty of Christians (even on this website) do exactly that.
You’ve completely missed the ppint as usual.
I agree with Chaps comment about that.
Have I ever done that?
*already know answer*
Depends on which end of the crucifix you are on janitor man.
BTW Jesus still don’t play the piano
OOHHH NNNNOOOO!!!
Kingfish just emailed and said he can’t call back today.
I am crestfallen.
*splat*
Pure:
Ummm, yes. You said that atheists are prone to selfishness and immorality.
I am going to dinner with a colleague, so why don’t we short circuit this whole nonsense? Why don’t you go back and quote me anywhere you can (this thread and others here) and show me where I insulted all Christians. After I come back late tonight we can talk about it. Keep in mind, the way I see it, me saying, “I don’t believe it and you are wrong for falling for it” is not an insult because that is exactly what religious people say of all other religions or non-religions. OK see you later.
Big Hammer:
I have no problems at all with Jesus. I think he was a great philosopher and moral teacher. I just don’t think he was divine. Sorry.
Okay. Thanks.
Thanks, zero, that was a huge improvement. That I can handle.
Very respectful.
Actually, at first I thought you were quoting someone else.
Would not have recognized that as you.
Here’s the problem with that. Previously you said you treat other people as they treat you.
A person of high character does not deal with others in that way,
A person of high character (moral, if you will) sets their own standard for conduct and adheres to that regardless of how others treat them.
I know this is the Christian way. I won’t pretend to know that the atheist way is in that regard.
Sarcasm? Moi?
“The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue.”
Dorothy Parker
OK, so I am back and I don’t see any quote at all. Where’s the quote? Where did I insult all Christians?
Big Hammer:
Improvement from what? Where did I ever say otherwise? Where did I disrespect all Christians?
Pure:
…and why not? As I just said, where have I said anything so disrespectful? Incidently, Harris, Hitchens and Dawkins all say similiar things about Jesus.
You broke that conduct when you said that you think atheists are prone to be selfish and immoral. Where did I say anything like that? Quote me.
Indeed. Fight for the Secular Humanists and let them have their displays in courthouses.
So… that’s it then? No quotes from me disrespecting Christians? I should expect that you would retract your charge that I disrespected all Christians.
Sorry I addressed part of the above to Big Hammer, it should have been all to Pure.
Sorry. I did not do requested homework.
You made up for it with other comments.
All you had to do was say that and you are GOLDEN!
See how easy this is?????
Anybody here love bacon?
Pure:
You can’t because I never said such a thing.
Like?
I think you misunderstood something. All that comment was saying was that I mistook one of your comments for Big Hammers.
Pure:
If you are going to say I disrespected all Christians the least you could do is quote me doing that.
That’s a pretty harsh charge of yours. Substantiate it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v91oSKaj388
This is my best offering.
This is the joy I feel in my heart.
Garsh, I didn’t know you were so serious.
Normally I wouldn’t take marching orders from anyone but Kingfish.
zero, you forgot this so soon?
Similar to previous quote.
ditto
see a pattern forming?
.
kind of insulting