Torch-wielding leftists at UC Berkeley attack chancellor’s home
This is what happens when you coddle liberal tantrum-throwers:
Eight people were in custody Saturday after a crowd of angry protesters broke windows and threw burning torches at UC Berkeley Chancellor Robert Birgeneau’s campus residence in protest of fee hikes and budget cuts, authorities said.
As many as 75 people – some of them carrying torches – surrounded the mansion, known as University House, on the north side of campus off Hearst Avenue at about 11:15 p.m. Friday, police said.
The crowd, including a man taken into custody in a university protest a day earlier, chanted, “No justice, no peace,” and began smashing planters, windows and lights. Several hurled their torches at the building, said campus spokesman Dan Mogulof.
Birgeneau was sleeping at the time and was awakened by his wife, Mary Catherine, Mogulof said. They were frightened, but unharmed, he said.
“These are criminals, not activists,” Birgeneau said in a statement issued Saturday morning. “The attack at our home was extraordinarily frightening and violent. My wife and I genuinely feared for our lives.”
Via SFGAte.com.
The Daily Cal has pictures and more details of the barbarians at the gate:
Between 40 and 75 people marched to Birgeneau’s home near the northwest corner of campus at about 11 p.m. Friday night. Some wielded torches that were allegedly thrown at police, while others broke the outside lighting to the house, overturned planters, damaged “impact resistant” windows on the house and scattered garbage brought from a nearby student housing cooperative, police said.
…Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said in a statement Saturday that the attack was an act of terrorism. “California will not tolerate any type of terrorism against any leaders including educators. The attack on Chancellor Birgeneau’s home is a criminal act and those who participated will be prosecuted under the fullest extent of the law. Debate is the foundation of democracy and I encourage protestors to find peaceful and productive ways to express their opinions,” he said in the statement.
It’s just another example of the unhinged, left-wing vigilantism that the dinosaur media elitists who smear conservative Tea Party activists as a frightful “angry mob” gripped with “insane rage” will ignore.
“Social justice” in action.
Left-wing SEIU mob beats black conservative …
Left-wing mob punches conservative Campaign for Liberty witness with camera…
Left-wing ANSWER mob attacks anti-illegal immigration protesters…
Left-wing mob shuts down speech at Columbia University…
Left-wing mob shuts down speech at UNC-Chapel Hill…
Left-wing mob blocks military shipments in Olympia, WA…
Left-wing mob illegally trespasses and breaks into a home in Baltimore in the name of “social justice”…
Left-wing mob chases Christian evangelists out of San Francisco’s Castro district:
Left-wing mob stomps on elderly Prop. 8 supporter’s cross:
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Related: At Copenhagen, hundreds of global warming warriors were arrested after throwing rocks and breaking windows to save the planet.
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So wait, let me get this straight.. You guys think that because (as of right now), you’ve never had any unfair scrutiny from the government or the police, that you could not possibly ever have any?
You never answered my question regarding Iran. Do you think that could never happen here? That things aren’t progressing in that direction? When in our history has government told private industries like the automotive & banking industries how much they can make? Convince me.. Tell me how this is not an affront to the constitution, & how will it be stopped? So far nothing is working.. Acorn is being refunded, & our tax money is about to pay for abortions..
crusades? Gosh swede, am I making you that desperate? Explain how training with a militia = crusades? I think that’s a wild enough statement that it needs defending, or at least a reasonable explaination..
My son is in the University of California system as a freshman.
The students at his university are genuinely scared about how they will meet tuition and fee increases.
The UC system is fat. For instance, each campus has a police force as well as a health clinic.
Why? When many Freshman cannot get English 101 or a selection of necessary general ed classes you have to ask if a full police force and medical clinic are that important?
Private security or the clinic down the street (on contract) should suffice. As a rule college kids are non violent and generally healthy.
The students are also keenly aware that their fees and tuition do not only go to student services, they are appropriated for new buildings, which is against the charter.
No one can condone violence, these punks should do prison time IMO.
Unfortunately the plight of the average student gets lost in in the wake of violent protests.
It didn’t? Kept Islam out of Europe, didn’t it?
ssnark likes to think he’s superior to everyone else here.
He loves to pontificate, set up strawmen arguments, and make sweeping generalizations.
I’d ignore him, Dan.
Oh, and serving in the military is a fine thing. But that does not automatically translate to one being more politically astute, or “superior” to a civilian.
LOL, I just realized that I probably opened up a Pandora’s Box when Islam was mentioned.
Watch ssnark lecture us on how wonderful and tolerant Muslims are, and how nasty and intolerant we Islamophobes are. After all, according to his book, we are the problem.
Please excuse my lack of outrage concerning this particular case, but this just appears to be liberals being liberals (at least since 1967) to me.
Conversely, since the Tea Party movement has been deemed to be dangerous by the MSM, and since we constantly hear that Obama is the most threatened President in US history…when are the libs going to release their collection of political terrorists, as well documented as Michelle’s “Unhinged?”
Berkeley’s chickens coming home to roooooooooooooooost.
Well, I’ve said all that is useful to say, & more unfortunately, so I’m done. Time will unfortunately prove I’m right, & especially if the general apathy of our public continues..
Thanks for the support atheling. Like I said before.. I never wanted to carry a rifle, but my freedom, & the freedom of future generations is now threatened from within, as much as from any external force, & now is a time to be ready for tyranny, not to be apathetic..
DanLee,
I don’t presume to speak for the other posters on this site, but let me give you some thoughts from a veteran on militias.
There is very little that we disagree on regarding Obama, the Left, Second Amendment, the NRA, the MSM, and the courts.
There are many milita groups and I believe most of those in them have the best intentions and love this country. The unease that people like ssnsnark and I have with militas is what they believe their perceived “mission” is. ssnsnark, myself, and others took an oath to the Constitution and we learned over time what the details of that oath meant.
I do not know what oaths may have been taken by these militas nor do I know that their members understand what that oath means. How many of them even care about preserving the Constitution?
We all have our “trigger point” on when we thing the Constitution is so endangered that we have to act. I have given it a lot of thought and I know what mine is. I also know, that if that day comes it will be the saddest day in my life.
Dan – I guess to my thinking “Christian militia” is a contradiction of terms. Read Romans 15. In a democracy we don’t fight the government, we work to change it. To repeat my worn out mantra – in my lifetime conservatism was pronounced dead in ’60, ’64, ’76, ’92 and now ’08. Somehow conservatism always made a resurgence, without a shot fired. Look at the polls my friend, it’s happening already.
Worse than that, the plight becomes worse because the violence is counterproductive. I hope your son and other students will be outspoken in their condemnation of this nonsense.
On December 13th, 2009 at 9:05 pm, atheling said:
Please do, by all means.
Atheling, we are not superior to civilians. We serve them and the Constituion. For the most part we also hate politics. However, do not doubt our superiority when it comes to the business you are discussing.
There are no Muslims in Europe? I did not know that.
“On a popular level, the first crusades unleashed a wave of impassioned, personally felt pious Christian fury that was expressed in the massacres of Jews that accompanied the movement of the Crusader mobs through Europe, as well as the violent treatment of “schismatic” Orthodox Christians of the east.”
Sorry, violence in the name of Christ doesn’t work for me
On December 13th, 2009 at 9:12 pm, Flyoverman said:
I’m 100% with you Flyoverman.
That last sentence speaks to my own unease about these so-called militias and particularly since there are more than a few that have in their core membership Aryan Brotherhood or American Nazi Party members.
Also well put. Many veterans will be as torn over this as Robert E. Lee was over secession and whether he should follow the Union or Virginia. His choice was Virginia, others chose the Union. I will do all that I can to prevent it from coming to that point. I love my country. I will do all I can and give all that I have to keep her and to uphold my oath to the Constitution. So will my sons. But the first lesson a Soldier learns about war is this, his best effort can only buy time for the ‘princes and merchants’ to haggle over how to ‘fix’ the problems that they’ve created.
IMO the viewpoints raised (by Atheling and others) are as valid as those who advocate not to over-react (Ssnark and such), and hopefully all-outbad feelings can be avoided, for my two cents worth.
I will say this though: Watching Fox News today I noticed, how the ‘Hillarycare’ program was killed by opposition of about 44% back in 1993, and yet now even with an opposition considerably higher (by 10% compared to 1993), the dems and their Republican enablers still want to continue the process to shove socialized healthcare down our throats, which is, under normal circumstances political suicide, so something more ominous is up, the question to me is ‘what is it, and how do we respond to it?’
Conversely, this desire to shove things on the American people on the part of the Dems/Obama is really starting to backfire with such things as their their encouragement of rank arrogance amongst their Obamacare supporters in Congress and their SEIU thugs..right now Arlen Specter’s switch to the Democrat Party isn’t really helping him, as Toomey is now rated as being capable of beating either Specter or Sestak in Pennsylvania. Does this mean we should not worry?…
No.
The long-run trend of liberal autocracy governmentally as well as culturally is getting worse, not better.
It does mean that constant vigilence is necessary, along with a proportional response to things we oppose.
It is in fact a somewhat delicious irony to see the UC Berkeley chancellor be given a scare by the advocates of things he probably otherwise supports..He probably is still in a state of denial about it though…
Time to blow out the oil lamps,
herd the livestock and settle down for the evening..
Guys, I understand that there are nutty militias groups out there. Perhaps you don’t know me well enough to know that I would never join one. I don’t hate black people, & certainly REAL Christians don’t hate Jews. I do however think that it would be naive to think that everyone in our military is there to protect the Constitution.
I’ve known several people (co-workers,& people I’ve talked to in passing) who have said to me in no lesser terms, that they only got into the military for the free school.. Others don’t even know what the constitution says.
But let me ask you this.. Are you saying that if we did have a constitutional crisis, that people who are armed, should have no organization? No plan? No survival skills? No alternate communications plan, or a network of people who are ready to get things done, whether it’s fighting a rogue Government, or assisting with a natural disaster?
Its not wrong to be ready.. Believe me, if this bunch of vipers refuses to leave office after they are voted out next year, I will be waiting for authorities to step in & arrest them first. I’m not going to jump in my vehicle & race to D.C. arrest them myself. But at some point, if that didn’t happen, what would we do? Just let them have a Oligarchy over us? What would we do?? Give me some good answers.. Because I’m telling you, this particular group, Pelosi,Reid,Frank,Dodd,Murtha.. They all have the nerve & arrogance to refuse to leave. Don’t doubt it without giving pause to some of the things they’ve already done.
Please at least watch this video of Murtha fixing a vote in the House.. Nobody did anything to him.. It wasn’t as big a vote as the Bailouts, or the Health Care Bill, ect.. But it shows his contempt for Democracy, & the Republic. It shows that he could do the same thing incrementally with more & more important votes.. No?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywgUCdefSW8&feature=player_embedded
Ah, but attacks against Marines are OK?
Nitwit. Tolerate it, and in some cases encourage it, then snivel about it when they turn on you. Your whining would be taken seriously if you were consistent.
Seems that the liberal Chancellor is actually being attacked by ideologues he supports.
Hoisted on his own petard, as it were!!!! It’s happening more and more these days.
On December 13th, 2009 at 9:34 pm, love2rumba said:
This was something our founding fathers worried over a great deal although they thought it would come from a standing military rather than a group that claims to abhor the military on one hand and yet idolizes brutish mass murderers and torturers like Salvadore Allende, Hugo Chavez and Che Guevara. A group that wants to disarm the populace and to create a ‘civilian armed force every bit as well equipped and trained as the military’.
These things scare me plenty as they speak to the exact sort of things that worried the founding fathers. To hear the same things coming from the far right as I hear from the far left also scare me equally. They scare me because I realize these are the kinds of things that frightened people say and frightened people reverbating with each other are as dangerous as contending harmonic conditions on a bridge span.
Ya gotta love that particular peice of irony don’tcha.
Ok ssnark,
So lets assume you’re right about militias.. If the “authorities” don’t remove them from office, & the military doesn’t step in, then what? What’s your plan?
First off, thank you for dialing back the ad hominem rhetoric. Reasonable dialogue works better.
Secondly, this scenario you are preparing for will not and can not happen. These idiots will be voted out, and they will leave. Unfortunatly, we will get more politicritters to replace them. That’s life. But they will do less damage than these clowns.
swede, I sincerely hope you are right Sir.. It’s just that after the things I’ve seen them do, I’m not as sure as you are..
This is the kind of thing that any sane person would want to be wrong about..
I’ve lost a lot over my convictions.. I’d love to go back to my old life. Playing music in a band, working at a normal job, & shooting at paper targets because it’s fun..
How ironic is this? These are the same lefties who are always opposed to any war, any time, yet they resort to violence to try get their way.
H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y!
On December 13th, 2009 at 9:51 pm, Dan Lee said:
Nope, but I’d feel better if it were the State Guard like we have in Texas or the SMRFs (State Military Reserve Forces) in California. Again a matter of sworn oaths to the State’s Constitution. Secondly, I don’t have a lot of faith in the C4I of militias. They’re not generally meritocracies. They don’t generally consider the inglorious tasks of staff work and planning to be as worthwhile as the ‘dress up and play war’ part. But, as the old saying goes, “Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.”
I’ve been recruited by too many of these militia groups since leaving active service to believe at all in their leadership or organizational capabilties. Let’s not even begin to look at logistics. Mostly what I saw were scared little men who are dangerous for the same reason that an amateur fencer is dangerous to a master, too unpredictable and lacking in good control. Worse still is the fact that the extremes on both sides are becoming militant for the same reason “rogue government” whether it’s the eveeel neo-conservatives or the commie-pinkos doesn’t matter in the end. They both make it dangerous for someone to live a simple small town country life and raise his family.
Now you may have chosen your particular militia well, and they may be all that and pop-tarts to boot. But, by and large what I’ve seen with the people trying to recruit me into their little militias are frightened middle aged men who haven’t even set up to make sure their families have a shelter and sufficient supplies for a tornado strike or another ’100 year flood’ Start at home, are you truly prepared for a flood, fire or a natural disaster as they occur in your locale? What about how you’re going to get your familiy together in safety or evacuate? What about when the kids are in school and the wife or yourself are on the road somewhere? What about the neighbors? Are you prepared for EMP or HEMP attack? If you live in or near a large metropolitan area what are your plans and contingency plans for a terrorist attack? What about if your kids are at the mall or it’s the holidays and they’re spread across town?
Preparedness if your concerned starts at home.
I bet these charges for the few numbers of whiners involved, outnumber the charges meted out to ALL those involved in the incidents in the videos in Michelle’s post here.
Right after he declares the police and the Chancellor acted stupidly for refusing to give in to their demands, forcing them to resort to violence, then arresting them for expressing their frustrations.
On December 13th, 2009 at 9:59 pm, Dan Lee said:
I’m pretty sure that Swede’s right and we’ll vote out one batch of scoundrels and replace them with less repugnant ones like we always have. I saw this with Nixon, with Carter and with Clinton, I suspect that’ll continue.
Secure my family and make sure that our neighbors and friends are safe. We’re the family everyone with a crisis comes to anyway, so I suspect that’ll be a constant. That’ll keep my hands full for a bit. Once that’s settled down, then I’ll have to assess the situation. Like Flyoverman said, I think I’d have to have reached a trigger point such as having my family and friends threatened. But I think my State, Texas would be plenty riled up about it. Given that, I’d have to think long and hard. I won’t be able to sit the fence. So it’ll take hard thought. Agonizingly hard, because I know there may be other friends who will believe the opposite of my own choice and that I may find myself fighting friends or even members of my family as occurred to others in the War of Northern Agression. I hope and pray that time never comes.
Isn’t it always the left that breaks windows, torches cars, makes life generally miserable for the cops, etc. Eco-terrorists anyone?
Those on the right would never go to those extremes as witnessed by the tea parties.
That being said, if there ever was a call to arms to protect our freedom I would be right there with most of y’all! I know in this day and age something like that is unthinkable–let’s hope it never happens.
LOL – that got my attention. You see, these idiots can work out for themselves that they are going to pay too much for the services they don’t need/want (liberals would call them free services/benefits) and yet, they cannot figure out that the politics and politico’s they support are giving it to them up the rear in higher taxes for – wait for it – free services and benefits.
In my book, it makes them supremely stupid. (BTW I never went to college and I can figure this out).
I will admit I have not read a single complete comment on this thread. But right now, I am going to go out on a limb and guess that atheling has, per usual, been the voice of reason, reconciliation and true Christian love.
Hi Chap,
I guess calling them idiots and stupid rules me out for showing “true Christian love”? LOL
I am sure you make up for it in other ways.
And, in any case, I doubt there is anything inherently unchristian about calling someone an idiot or a fool. Context is probably important.
Being in California, I’ve watched and heard all of this nonsense and to be honest with you, this is freakin’ hilarious. This is left on left crime and what is so funny about it is these students think they are protesting Republicans. The students need to protest the Democrat politicians who have bankrupted this state, probably not going to happen because these students are the most moronic of anyone I’ve ever heard. Their enemy is supposedly on their side! I have been laughing since this started. These kids need to put in an application to a state that is not bankrupted by the politicians these students “support”. Maybe Texas is the place to go, of course they would protest the politicians for being fiscally responsible. What a laugh a minute this cluster is.
ssnark,
when I went through the first interview, of three, I asked about the ideology of the group. I also asked if there were members of the group who had military experience, & what kind.
I really shouldn’t have said I “joined” a militia, because they haven’t officially accepted me yet.
They did assure me that their focus is constitutional, & that each member is to take an oath to uphold the TN state constitution.
They have nothing to hide, so I’d encourage you to check out their site..
http://www.1sttnrifles.net/
I would actually like to hear your opinion.
P.S. Where it says “new members” on the site, means members of the forums, & not necessarily the militia itself..
All we are saaay—ying
is give peace a chance
kum bah yah y’all
kum bah yah
Actually I’d be pretty miffed if I were paying that much for the product they’re getting. Still, guaranteed employment at the non-profit of your choice is probably worth something, isn’t it?
***
Thank you Military Vets who actually served in combat. As an Army draftee I never saw real action. An engineering degree replaced a rifle with a meter and an oscilloscope and slide rule instead. I knew and know a lot who did serve “under fire”–most were very rational people.
***
As far as the militias–Hitler set up the SA and later the SS as his special forces to take over the German state–and did so. So far only Comrade Obama (PBUH) seems to want his own “militia”–he talked about new security forces as strong as our present military!
***
The most likely scenario for 2nd. amendment stuff is a Watts or Rodney King type of event where civil order breaks down and government refuses to or can’t protect us from rioters and looters–of all ethnic and / or racial backgrounds. Or a New Orleans style natural disaster or Jihadi A-bomb attack event. I don’t expect to see a Cuban Castro style government coup succeeding against our Constitutional System in the near future.
***
John Bibb
***
On December 14th, 2009 at 12:55 am, Dan Lee said:
Reasonable questions. I’ll take your word they answered satisfactorily.
That’s always a good start.
I did, not really enough information for me to form an opinion one way or another about this particular group. I’ll see if any of my friends with the 101st ever heard of them and what they think though. You might also ask them about Operational Sustainment and how they are going to house, clothe and feed you guys not to mention provide r medical care, ammunition, field re-supply and transportation, particularly fuel, oil, and lubricants in the event of an emergency. Remember, it took weeks after Katrina for those things to happen consistently even once the Governor got finished crying and activated the National Guard. So if something heavy happened what’s the plan to sustain the unit for weeks? You can only carry so much and movement by privately owned vehicle may cause clogged roads and be inefficient and burdensome on scarce supplies.
You’ll also want to ask about and look through their ROE and contingency planning for any of the things that they’re preparing for or against. Ask how if deployed they plan on maintaining good order and discipline amongst the members. Remember no matter how well intentioned and how rigorous the screening, there will always be those “bad eggs” that manage to get through the process. There are a bunch of follow-on questions I’d have but lacking the information to the one’s I’ve stated here, couldn’t come up with the follow-ons at this time.
In RE: US military forces
You know you’ve got one of the best outfits in the world in your backyard there. I’ve known a lot of the people in the various tenant units of Ft. Campbell and have been a member of a couple of them. Of all the units in the US Army the 101st and the 5th SFG, if push came to shove, they’d be on the ‘right side’. The 101st were on the side of desegregation when President Eisenhower needed people to guard the streets of Little Rock Arkansas and make sure the “Little Rock Nine” were allowed to attend Little Rock High School. The 5th SFG is one of the best of the best and lives the SF motto of De Oppresso Liber.
Sorry if I gave offense, you weren’t the one spouting off about getting all violent, but militias in general make me nervous, because in most cases I worry that they’d go all warlord in their AOs (Area of Operations) and because they don’t generally understand the General Staff functions would end up preying on local farmers, merchants and general people for sustainment.
It’s one of my contingency plans for my family in the event of an emergency. Especially since I might be called away to serve with the Texas State Guard or in a National emergency, back to the US Army. So you might understand that militias especially the ones in my backyard make me nervous in the service.
This “scared middle-aged man” resents being made to feel scared of his government.
I’ve never had the honored of serving my country through the military. So, actually fighting someone is nothing I have experience with at all.
That being said, I have a wife and three children, and I absolutely love my country. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution ARE the country. Oddly, the older I’ve gotten, the more willing I’ve become to die to protect them. And my family.
I’ve come to believe that dying a free man is better than living a slave.
I’m purchasing weapons, buying food stuffs and supplies, and planning safe points.
As I have been doing so, I have felt very, very sad. I still can’t believe we ordinary Americans are now considered “extremists.” Mainly, I am sad that some of my fellow Americans would gleefully vote away their rights and mine; rights that are not theirs to take.
It is also troubling than an American President would attack those he is supposed to serve. That is simply unbelievable. Yet, Obama does this EVERY DAY.
So, when your president berates you and makes vague threats toward you through proxies, how else should one feel but angry and ready to fight?
On December 14th, 2009 at 3:24 am, RogerCfromSD said:
I feel your angst. Remember, I belong to the group he berates, shows his general dislike for, except during photo ops and as a backdrop for speeches. But then that’s not too different from the way James Earl Carter or William Jefferson Clinton felt and acted. So perhaps after 12 years of it, I’m a little more thick skinned.
I can understand your anger and desire to fight. But this ‘fight’ is won at the ballot box. It is won by finding the key to the hearts and minds of your fellow citizens. It is bringing home the message that they will be less free, more burdened financially and that the ‘benefits’ being dangled in front of them like “free healthcare” aren’t free at all. It is bringing to the ordinary Joe and Jane on the street the message that TANSTAAFL always applies that you pay for anything you get somehow and that you get what you pay for and only that.
This, is what drew me to the Tea Party movement and made this ‘old Soldier’ who was avowedly not a politician a political activist to try to revive the lessons I’ve spent trying to teach all over the world that seem to have been lost in my own country, the cradle of those very ideals and lessons.
Fight, but fight smart. Educate your friends and neighbors. Get into their faces with the facts and teach them that Democracy is hard and it takes both courage and thought to keep it going. Tell them that acquiescing to someone else’s ideas of what you need is moral and intellectual laziness and slovenliness. Get them out of their comfort zone by showing them the primrose path that this kind of terpitude will take them down.
ssnark,
It’s fine man.. Lets face it. We’re all under a lot of emotional stress about the direction of our Government & our Country. I say things I don’t mean sometimes too.. (Obviously)
I do take comfort in the fact that you have confidence in our Tennessee troops.
I’m not a career soldier, & I don’t know as much as you guys about who’s trustworthy & who “may” not be. I moved here because (in my estimation) God opened every single door so that I could. I can’t even tell you how glad I am to be here. As a Conservative in Massachusetts, I was like dog in a Beijing restaurant.. Always looking over my shoulder..
On supplies:
I personally have enough food/water kept aside for a couple months, as well as a pretty expensive gravity feed device that can clean any contaminated water whatsoever at 2 gallons every 15 min, short of radiation contaminated.Filter is permanent/back-flushable. The rations we keep are good for about four years, & are rotated according to their projected usability/expiration.. However that’s me, not the unit. I think your questions are great ones for me to ask, & from the tone I’ve gotten so far, these guys have a lot of humility. I planned ahead on the ammo thing, and have other access to enough to fight a small war, but knowing the plans of the others is important as you mentioned. I know much of the drills are run with airsoft, which saves on ammo, & keeps operatives from getting unwanted unnecessary air holes in their body.. We like that..
In regard to the answers I was given, there are several members with, Ranger, SPEC Ops & other relevant experience in the group. That was my second question to him. If there weren’t, I don’t think I’d be comfortable joining, for some of the reasons you stated earlier.
The public relations Representative that I interviewed with from the militia expressed the same sentiment as I did on the board earlier, that we’d both like things to calm down, so we can go back to our old lives & hobbies.
I’m sorry I got so mad at you.. Its one of those things I need to work on..
Chuck Norris once said: “A man is like steel, once he loses his temper, he loses his value, or worth.”
I believe that with all my heart..
At the same time, I’ve never been so challenged by anything in my life as I am by the thought of losing my freedom & the sovereignty of this nation.
I don’t have to tell you, that the thought of that is VERY emotional..
Hey Roger,
As you can see from reading my posts, I’m mad as hell too, but we have definitely have to keep a cool head, lest we make their insults towards us a self fulfilling prophecy, you know?
ssnark is right.. Democracy & voting is our first line of defense, & a wise man takes the threats as they come, not lives in constant fear of them.
There’s nothing wrong with being prepared for a battle, but look, here’s the harsh reality. If the Gov. decides they want to come take your particular set of guns, in all likelihood, there’s nothing you can do to stop it, other than barricade yourself in a fortified home. That’s not realistic, & neither is a one man firefight with police. In an organzied group such as the National Guard, or w well regulated,reputable militia, you’d have a better chance of making a difference.
Now I’m not suggesting at all that you were planning a one man battle, I’m just making some points about why we exercise these rights.
We need to continue to get people to exercise their 2nd Amendment Rights on a large scale, because that sends a much more productive message than any violence does. They can’t go to every home in America, & if they go to one home & take guns without a righteous reason, they have lost the battle in the court of public opinion. The polls show that most Americans still support the second amendment by a pretty good margin. The more people we teach to see firearms as a tool, rather than allow leftists to demonize them, the more allies we will have for our 2nd Amendment Rights.
On December 14th, 2009 at 3:47 am, Dan Lee said:
It’s all good dude, I was kind of shocked when you got upset. You’re generally a pretty reasonable fellow. We’ve disagreed on a few things and agreed to disagree. Something I really appreciate since you seem a pretty good guy.
That’s a better start than most people. How’s your elevation? IIRC, Tennesee tends to have a number of flood prone areas because the water table is so high and the porosity of limestone in much of the area creates surface upwellings of ground water at times.
Also, if you have a safe way to store it, about 20 gallons of gasoline, isn’t a bad thing to keep, store it in a safe (explosive and flammable) use some Sta-Bil or Pri-G and rotate it regularly. along with some propane bottles (for cooking) and a small generator (or better yet a small one for the fridge/freezer and a big one for when you need lighting or to run a table or miter saw, preferably propane or diesel (diesel also breaks down though) fueled, for refrigeration, heating/AC and task lighting). buy an indoor room AC (Texas and Tennessee get a tad warm in the summer). Preparation for an EMP or HEMP attack are much more complex and we actually had to remodel to build in an EMP/HEMP resistant ‘safe room’ in the house that would protect everyone in the event of a tornado.
What about your family protection if you’re out with the militia? One of life’s most difficult lessons is that you can’t protect everything or everyone. So, what kind of contingency planning have you taken if you’re away from home when the ball drops?
I know exactly what you mean. I’ve always assumed that no matter where I was deployed, home would be safe and secure from anyone’s depredations. Now, I’m not so certain.
That’s why we’re here and talking. Heck I even became politically involved because of what’s been going on and I liked and was comfortable with being, “just a Soldier not a politician”. I never liked politics and other than voting (since I paid in blood for the right), supporting the NRA and ILA, and up until the last four years donations to the Republican Party had no political agenda other than making sure the local crooks (both in and out of public office) were kept at bay.
Now, I have no political party affiliation. So, can’t even be accused of being a RINO.
But I am involved with the Tea Party movement as a participant. I’m as worried for my country as you are.
*taking notes on the supplies referenced above**
Thanks, guys. It is nice to be able to express how I’ve been feeling. And, don’t worry. I’m not going to strip naked, rub war paint on, sling a few bandoliers over my shoulder, grab a rifle, and run screaming into the night.
I believe people who do do that usually end up suicided by cop.
I am, however, going to the Republican Party office in my city and inquire about becoming a Neighborhood Precinct Committee members.
I want to be involved in the process for ridding ourselves of the garbage we have in office.
That’s what I thought!
Wow..
The Banking Coup is still well underway..
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12/14/obama-slams-fat-cat-bankers-eve-meeting/
On December 14th, 2009 at 5:00 am, Dan Lee said:
Now that’s really scary. I don’t like having the government controlling the primary financial institutions and their assets one bit. It tends to smack of “Uncle Joe” Stalin and his ways.
On December 14th, 2009 at 4:42 am, RogerCfromSD said:
Never mind the working hard, studying or excelling – going to College is my right, never mind I am probably A) going to school on my parents dime or B) being subsidizedby California.
Just wait till the Berkley Kidz get the bill for Obamacare, see everything skyrocket in price from Cap and Tax, and roll out of school with huge debt and 10% unemployment staring them in the face.
They will “go muslim” when they face that.
Dan Lee said:
Right there with you – we did a lot of canning this year plus shopping we have enough to last 6 months ( food and supplies) whats really good here is – I buy whats needed and a person I know that lives close by will reload for me at 10 cents a round – considering that he does this at all is a gift in it self. Putting in a wood burning heat system, the kind that is outside and pumpos air into the existing heat system. After all this – at least we know we have prepared ourselves as best we can.
Wouldn’t throwing fire at someone’s home constitute attempted murder?
I’d think that has to be attempted murder and they should be prosecuted and locked away for a long time.
Liberals’ chickens have come home to roost!
Our internal bickering doesn’t do us any good except to give the left something to beat us over the head with, as you know they will. They live to beat someone, somewhere, over the head with something, over nothing.
I stand with Dan. Be prepared ! I feel that without some organization we would be like sheep to the slaughter. We could be easily be suppressed one by one if we don’t prepare some community organization. The Fed, State and local Government through time does this to a person, makes them feel like a number with no say. How many of you got what you wanted from calling your Representative or Senator? Crickets ! Right now I believe “Taxation without representation” is a true statement and is being implemented now. I do not take the offensive but be ready to defend what I have worked for, my family and if need be, the Constitution of the United States. I know as well as many of my friends know, Even if we trained like soldiers, we would still get slaughtered up against our army or even a SWAT team. At least I would have died free.
I think you might need a hug and a cookie.
Even more unfortunate is the fact that government loans disproportionately drive tuition costs infinitely up. It gets lost in the wake of the expectation that we’re all entitled to them.
Well, to pose a question not asked of the fight with votes crowd, what happens when that fails? We pat ourselfs on the back say job well done? What happens if voting districts are redrawn to insure conservitive canidates can not and will not win?
Or what happens if we are succesful enough in our aims that the remaining Liberal Dems support a call of national emergancy from Obama? He has repeatidly stated that in his goals to support that.
Or if he gets his national security force? Or uses underhand tactics by proxy to change the constitution by law? And does it matter if those laws or corrupt and not just so long as it is law? Does it matter how the constitution is? Or so long as we have one that answers to DC? I mean is it the ideas of the paper that make America or the Paper its self? Would a constitution torn asunder still be it in your eyes? Or is it only broken when someone rips the paper up?
I’ve seen too many soldiers of more modern times who are a-political or worse yet politically reliable to those in DC. Thus unlike some the fact you worn a uniform means little to me. Your chracter is what matters to me. Would General George S Patton Jr and his generation have stood for this?
If the economic system can be uspured why not the rest? Its clear Europe our so called ally support this leftist agenda and funnles funds. Its clear the Chinese support it, not as its something they support but know it will weaken us.
So just how will votes change a system thats rotten. At what point is getting a lesser evil enough? Of course now is not the time to reble, nor am I saying that, I’m asking what would be that point?
On a parting note I seen you mentioned Amatures talk tactics, professionals talk logistics? Well I also recall there is another rule to Military Reassoning which you’ve shown a compleat lack on or have taken for granted in your views.
Realistic Objectives, and mission planning of the Situation. We have a nearly 50/50 split on views however most leftist live in major cities thus getting more of the vote by population density.
Its a fact that the Tea Partties haven’t blocked one thing, why whould Congress criters fear you the stupid voter? He can arrange demograhps to insure his/her rule, and not to matter if they are beaten Obama has promised them positions as Ambassadors, which argueablly under the Obama Admnistration forigen policy has now influanced Domestic.
Never mind the 2010 elections are far away, and the military is in terms of production and equipment a ghost of its former self and over seas by and large.
Who is to say things will go as always?
That is clearly not the case, only 15% of the US population at the time changed the course of history in the 1760′s-70′s. Or look at the Civil rights movement how it changed history, or the feminist movement, Need I go on?, and it should be noted these won by radical means for better or worse. Not by civil town halls and dumping bags of tea as protest.
On a side note before i have to deal with BS, things arn’t bad enough for a revolt now, I’m just saying to those who say to use votes only, when is enough, enough? Or is it ever? Apathy is a strong force in this country always has been if you look back on history.
Again, all this after we reapeatedly hear that conservatism is the cause of all violence/bigotry/hatred/everything bad in the country/world.
The use of force to silence/intimidate the “other side” (as shown in a couple of MM’s examples) is especially telling. when do people resport to drastic measures? When they know they can’t win.
Stuff it Flyoverman!
If only this were true…
Why is it that folks who think their S**t don’t stink and are God’s gift to the planet, try to upset everyone’s opinions. I could care less about your achievements. Mind your own business and stay out of mine. Take that cookie and put it where the sun don’t shine!
to quote a lomg standing maxim in law, your right to swing your fist stops at my nose. everyone has the right to freedom of assembly and speech, at least in non communist countries, but no one has the right to destroy others property. i can’t for the life of me understand why a judge doesn’t take these globe trotting thugs, and lock them up for 3 – 5 years in a sherriff arpiao like workcamp where they can rebuild these damaged buildings and pay for the damage out of their 2 dollars a day penal pay.
Hmmm…toysurgeon expresses opinion; flyoverman suggests calming down; toysurgeon wants flyoverman to stay out of his business which he posted publicly…then gets insulting.
False dichotomy, like anyone who opposes BarryCare advocates doing nothing. We are not apathetic in any way, shape or form.
It is not votes only, it is active involvement and support of genuine conservative candidates, participating in the process and speaking out, most recently via tea parties.
If joining a militia and survivalist methods work for you, fine. I don’t see how that will improve the present situation.
If you advocate armed insurrection, I oppose you and you will have to fight me as well.
and get sodomized daily after watering the carrots.
“If you know yourself and you know your enemy in a hundred battles you will be victorious. If you know only yourself or your enemy your odds will be even. If you know neither yourself, nor your enemy, in every battle you will be in peril.” – Sun Tzu 514 B.C.
On December 13th, 2009 at 2:51 pm, AlohaGuy said:
Entitled vs earned – the entitled are never satisfied with what they are given nor do they value the gifts.
Nail-head.
—————————————
X2. It is nearly impossible to appreciate/be satisfied with what you have when you worked for none of it. When you have everything handed to you, all you want to do is keep asking for more.
Bet that liberal California Chancellor was thinking a lot about the Second Amendment during the situation.
Just what would have been the reaction in the MSM if, for example, the president had a dark complexion and most of the “protestors” were burning something else?
This is not free speech. This is anarchy, a continuation of what happened in the mid 1960′s.
Yeah, they could have started paying down that fee increase with what they spent on the tiki torches from Home Depot and the Che tee-shirts from the mall.
Me, too. Yes, Iran could happen here.
Just don’t like seeing ssnark attacked.
Most of this disagreement is about differing personal temperaments.
If swede’s back was to the wall, I betcha he’d pick up a rifle.
…’Sort of like “going Postal”?
Dan,
I appreciate your comments and think often of the issues you raise. About a month ago, someone left a sheet of paper on my desk with no indication of their identity. The sheet was an application to an organization of military officers that believe that their duty to uphold the Constitution compels them to fight the trend towards despotism in this country. The application didn’t indicate how this fight for the Constitution would be waged but in thinking thought it, I definitely agree with most in this thread that things aren’t really to a point that justifies any kind of armed rebellion.
Also, as a Christian, I find no biblical basis to say that if I get taxed too much, or have the government mandate my healthcare, or if I’m constrained to do all kinds of things short of denying the faith, I have the right to rebel. I just don’t see it scripturally. I don’t have a right to rebel against a government I don’t like. This is a huge change for me, personally, as it actually challenges the bases of the American Revolution, which I have always thought a righteous cause.
That said, we live in a republic in which we have a bounden duty to participate in our own governance and to do so within the boundaries of the Constitution. As has been pointed out, those of us in the military have taken an oath to defend the Constitution. So the question does come back to, “At what point does a person faithful to the Constitution ‘rebel’ against a goverment that is acting contrary to the Constitution?”
For my black forefathers (some of them, anyways) that meant breaking un-Constitutional (and hence, unjust) laws through non-violence. I think that definitely is a legit way to go long before violence but what if that fails?
Truth be told, I think violence will be visited on those who oppose Statism first before they have a chance to “react.” I think we won’t have to go fishing for “when”; I think you’ll find yourself in a situation forced upon you, eventually.
So, yes, I see it as a very difficult question fraught with all kinds of opportunity for craziness. One I think that Dan points up is that the natural and good inclination to avoid overheated rhetoric and sensationalism could potentially blind you to a very real, creeping danger.
I liken it to the the frogs in the pot:
What point do you “jump”? When, ideally, should those, who saw what Hitler was, have mounted opposition? What was that ideal moment that would have saved untold tragedy but not failed out of the gate as too reactionary? Especially when, if it prevailed but was then seen as too heavy-handed, you wouldn’t have the subsequent history of Hitler to support your actions! You couldn’t say, “Well look what he caused to millions!” because as yet, he DIDN’T do those things yet precisely because you prevented them from happening!
All that to say I think that the prophet, the Reformer, etc., etc. will always seem out-of-step, alarmist, and not a little nuts. Sometimes that will be a very accurate description but sadly, when it is not, there will often be hell to pay for ignoring them. Knowing when to act is only validated in hindsight and there’s the rub.
For me, I feel like I am to do all I can sans armed rebellion for as long as I can until the other side makes it absolutely impossible for me to do so any longer.
Major O.. On the tax issue alone, I agree with you. Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesars, & to God what is Gods.
However there are things beginning to happen that are a little more critical than just unjust taxes. And, in the coming year or so you will begin to see counter attacks on our second amendment rights that are unprecedented.
I was one who didn’t want to believe that our Government was manufacturing crisis in or to gain control over us. “Power corrupts, & absolute power corrupts absolutely.” But just know that it’s not “Our Government” per se that is doing it, it is evil people that have infiltrated it who are pulling the strings.
Anything that stands in their way needs to be torn down. Religious views, individualism, & private property ownership are all obstacles to socialist policies, as much now, as they were in Nazi Germany. Just suppose for a second that a financial crises was purposely created so that people could be convinced that it is so bad that the government is the only entity with the power to fix it. Suppose that a virus was leaked out by a certain unscrupulous group within the government, who also happens to have full charge of the cure &/or prevention?
Suppose a hostile act with firearms on a large scale was manufactured to give the government an excuse that seems reasonable for them to take away guns?
It all seemed far fetched to me, until the EPA had the hootspa to actually call C02 a threat to public health. Why? To gain more control over us, & enslave us in nearly every facet of our lives eventually.
Have you read this attempt:
This isn’t a bunch of “9/11 truthers” that many think are crazy saying this.. Read the article here. The concern is universal amongst anyone who has a brain & has begun to put it together through access to all the info. Read the story here:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12/14/private-property-clean-water-restoration-act/
So how many of you are having trouble finding clean water to drink? How many of you live near a pond, lake, or stream that is too dirty for your children to stand in?
Why are they doing these things? Have you asked yourself?
Don’t take my word for it, but rather take the time to seek out the answers to these questions..
I hate to be cliche here, but, “The Truth Will Set You Free..”
After all, your God given freedom, is what they are after..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7JAiRyegZg&feature=related
Dan Lee, I am your homegirl.
Are you sure you don’t know about The Monkees?
Hey Hey, Come on now.. I grew up with the Monkees.. So don’t try to Monkee around with me young lady.. >:)
Heh, I was in mini-skirts and go-go boots when you were still in nappies.
On December 14th, 2009 at 10:03 am, TK-421 said:
Expecting it to fail presupposes an outcome that isn’t necessarily true. First, try using the system. That means figuring out, that all politics is local. Meaning that make sure you don’t get reapportioned out of power by electing conservatives at the lower levels of government and up into the state legislatures. Hopefully,you did that in the 2009 election season like we did where I live. We’ll continue in 2010 especially since we have one and possibly two US Senate seats up for re-election/election. Likewise, we’re campaigning against the few Democrats in the House in our area. Remember, money talks. Remember too that blocks of votes count. Use the strategy that put the Republicans behind the wheel in 1992-1994 and the Democrats in the same place in 2006-2008. It worked and continues to do so.
That sounds a lot like one of those Daily Kos types talking about how the ‘demon’ Booosh was going to steal the 2004 election and then keep himself in power. Get real! It won’t fly, not because anyone fears your mighty Smith and Wesson or your AR-15 but rather that it might just cause the money to dry right up by scaring China into pulling its investments out and George Soros, Ms. Heinz and company haven’t got that kind of money. It would suddenly cause Congress to run out of OPM.
He could very well get his Okhrana. That would be frightening indeed. But, he hasn’t and it’s up to you to stop it not by running scared of boogeymen that don’t exist. But rather by convincing your neighbors that it would be a bad idea to support anyone who supports the idea of a “National Civilian Defense Force”. You don’t do that by sounding or acting like a hysterical high strung filly.
Likewise your idea that it’s easy to change the Constitution. There’s a process for amending the Constitution and it takes a ratification vote by the legislatures of two thirds of the States. Again that’s why taking back the State houses with people who believe in small government and who have a strong moral character.
Just exactly how many of the 447,000+ of us do you know? How well do you know them? I spent 30 years in the Army and can only claim to know a few hundred well enough to know their politics and maybe a couple of thousand (currently serving) at all. I can only claim to know the politics of one serving Flag Officer and no other Naval Officer and a scant few enlisted people in the Navy. I know a dozen or so Marine Officers and a few enlisted, likewise Air Force personnel. So it seems just a bit odd that you seem to know so much about men and women whose politics you likely will never have heard and in the General and Flag Officer ranks whose battles behind closed doors with bureaucrats and political hacks you’d never know anything about. Unless of course, Sir, you are one of those General Officers or Flag Officers, in which case, I’d respectfully still beg to differ with you.
I’d probably say you don’t know Sh*t about me. General George S. Patton Jr. was a good tactician and a fair to middlin’ strategist. He was ineffective at anything but a wartime field command. I am sure that were he alive today he’d be well versed in counter-insurgency warfare and if he were still serving, be applying the tenets thereof in new and imaginative ways in dealing with our current enemies. But he’d be totally flummoxed by the political realities of our government today and probably retired as a major during the Clinton draw down.
Why not? That’s precisely what a lot of us are working hard to prevent.
Is it? Can you show me proof of this allegation? I’d be interested in finding out more. I’m serious here.
That’s the truth and very apparently so to anyone with half a brain. Too bad the people that were voted in can’t see it. Maybe that’s why we should educate the voters to provide them with the information and outrage that they’re being sold down the river by the ‘good ol’ boys’ and girls like Pelosi, Murtha Reid and Boxer. Although, it’s possible Nevada gets it about Reid. But then again, I was disappointed by Pennsylvania and their re-election of Murtha.
Why settle for a lesser evil? Why not find better, stronger minded and willed candidates? Why not demand from them that they fundamentally change the system? Demand smaller less intrusive government. Demand that your candidates be faithful, honest and loyal. Understand that a faithless husband is a faithless and untrustworthy man. Understand that a man may be judged by the company he keeps. e.g., if he’s an ex field grade or General Officer, how many who served with him are serving on his election committee. If there are a number of the senior and junior members of his staff on his staff still, he’s probably worthy of a good hard look. Otherwise, he’s another Eikenberry or Clark and useless as teats on a boar hog.
The point is, you can’t win if you don’t try or at least enter. Quitting is an answer, I suppose. But it’s not one I’ll accept. I learned to survive fishing the Pacific Ocean, I found out that the key to survival when facing a force four storm in a sixteen foot boat is to never quit on yourself or the crew. That was reinforced in the Q course and again and again in combat on three continents and over nine campaigns. So you do what you want to do, I’m going to fight this campaign and the next till I’m either dead or I’ve won. I’m not telling you to do it. Just what I’m going to do. Your choices are your own to make.
No, I was speaking of the weaknesses of most militias when I spoke of the importance of logistics.
I understand more than you may wish to credit me with how to write and execute a five paragraph Ops Order. I also, have had some modest amount of rather expensive training that you and every other taxpayer spent on to teach me how to influence people to change or support a government.
Well, most folks would say that the issue of effectiveness of the Tea Party movement has yet to be determined yet. Why don’t we let history be the judge. The battle ain’t over till it’s over.
I don’t know, but it appears to me that members of Congress ran scared from us all summer. The fact that ObamaCare hasn’t passed yet is at least in some small part due to the potential threat that barring some wonderful thing on the domestic or national front happening to make them forget. The people who vote have kept Mr. Reid from being able to push their bill through the Senate.
Maybe, but that’s why you make sure to build from the bottom up in the off year elections for everything from school board to the state legislature. At that point, reapportionment except in your favor can’t happen no matter what a US House or Senate member may want.
Yes, Mr. Obama can give away patronage jobs left, right and center. When it’s all over and he’s gone in 2012 like Jimmy Carter was in 1980, the new guy will graciously accept their resignations and appoint his own ‘special friends’ to those positions.
I think that Martin Luther King were he alive today and even Gloria Steinem would differ with you about how the movements that they were leaders in came to be accepted. It was a gradual process that for women began in the late 18th Century here in the United States and continued making radical leaps forward in the 1940s during WWII and in the 1960s with the expansion of the US economy during the Cold War. Civil Rights started with the Founding Fathers here in the United States with the novel concept that everyone was endowed with certain rights. Some minorities, like most asians still are still legally discriminated against whereas more numerous black and hispanic groups are not. However, if you’re speaking of black civil rights, then 1863 (Emancipation Proclamation) marks one of the earlier points in the attainder of civil rights. No, it was a long process for both. It was likewise a long process, primarily one of entropy by which we’ve come to this point in government. Fighting entropy may be futile. But, it’s the fight I’ve got and I believe in humankind.
On December 14th, 2009 at 10:52 am, swede said:
I’ll stand with swede on this and can probably bring about three dozen retired SEALs, Rangers and SF people with me to watch his back and beef up his FEBA.
On December 14th, 2009 at 3:44 pm, Major O said:
Good points all.
Another valid point and pretty much my own position.
I have one other concern and that is, the safety and welfare of my family. That consideration will be foremost in my mind. Even should I be recalled to active duty or to the State Guard.
At some point, though, Rome DID fall, and no doubt there were those who warned of it but were ignored. I think it is important to not always write off the concerns of folks like Dan as “Kos Kids” talk anymore than it was to write them off. Each idea should be evaluated and discussed on the merits. Ignoring it has a way of looking like proof of their assertion.
WalMart has Ruger Mini 14 semiautomatic rifles for $607.00. How much are the lives of you and your family worth?
ECS