The death of deliberative democracy, Pt. 9,997; Update: Harry Reid’s hypocrisy; Update: C-SPAN calls on Congress to let sun shine in
Scroll for updates…1/5 C-SPAN asks Congress to open up negotiations to cameras…
The most ethical, transparent, open Democrat majority ever is apparently going to short-circuit the House-Senate conference committee process to get the government health care takeover done.
TNR has the story:
Now that both the House and Senate have passed health care reform bills, all Democrats have to do is work out a compromise between the two versions. And it appears they’re not about to let the Republicans gum up the works again.
According to a pair of senior Capitol Hill staffers, one from each chamber, House and Senate Democrats are “almost certain” to negotiate informally rather than convene a formal conference committee. Doing so would allow Democrats to avoid a series of procedural steps–not least among them, a series of special motions in the Senate, each requiring a vote with full debate–that Republicans could use to stall deliberations, just as they did in November and December.
“There will almost certainly be full negotiations but no formal conference,” the House staffer says. “There are too many procedural hurdles to go the formal conference route in the Senate.”
The Hill people call this “ping-ponging.”
It’s more like dodgeball.
***
Flashback: There was a time when Democrats fiercely guarded the formal conference process. Remember that 2006 report from Democrats on the “death of deliberative democracy” that I told you about in November?
Quoting from page 36:
The conference process in the 108th Congress is a case study in how the Republican leadership abused the Rules of the House to block Members, both Republicans and Democrats, from legislating in an informed and thoughtful manner. House-Senate conferences are a critical part of the deliberative process because they produce the final legislative product that will become the law of the land.
Do as they say…
***
Update: The Democrat dodgeball team leaders have now alienated at least one House liberal.
Update: Via Naked Emperor News, a classic Harry Reid whine about the short-circuiting of the deliberative process…
Update: C-SPAN founder and CEO Brian Lamb wants Congress to walk the transparency walk. Democrat majority, we’re waiting…
C-SPAN CEO Brian Lamb sent the below letter regarding opening Congressional health legislative discussions between the House and Senate to Majority Leader Reid, Minority Leader McConnell, Speaker Pelosi, and Minority Leader Boehner on December 30.
December 30, 2009
Dear Speaker Pelosi:
Representative Boehner:
Senator Reid:
Senator McConnell:
As your respective chambers work to reconcile the differences between the House and Senate health care bills, C-SPAN requests that you open all important negotiations, including any conference committee meetings, to electronic media coverage.
The C-SPAN networks will commit the necessary resources to covering all of these sessions LIVE and in their entirety. We will also, as we willingly do each day, provide C-SPAN’s multi-camera coverage to any interested member of the Capitol Hill broadcast pool.
Since the initial introduction of the America’s Affordable Health Care Act of 2009 in the House and the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act in the Senate
C-SPAN has televised literally hundreds of hours of committee hearings, mark ups and floor debate on these bills for the public to see. And importantly, we have archived all of this video for future generations to study in the C-SPAN Video Archives.
President Obama, Senate and House leaders, many of your rank-and-file members, and the nation’s editorial pages have all talked about the value of transparent discussions on reforming the nation’s health care system. Now that the process moves to the critical stage of reconciliation between the Chambers, we respectfully request that you allow the public full access, through television, to legislation that will affect the lives of every single American.
We hope you will give serious consideration to this request. We are most willing to employ the latest digital technology to make the cameras, lights and microphones as unobtrusive as possible.
Please contact me if I can answer any questions.
Sincerely,
Brian Lamb
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Do you have a link to the actual 2006 report? I don’t see one here or in your linked article.
Enjoyed what I caught of your CSAPN appearance.
It’s in the linked article:
The rules should be followed. Period.
Yeesh. Couldn’t have been too much more in front of me.
Sorry. And thanks.
Isn’t there some legal requirements for the formal deliberation?
Why can’t the police just start arresting these charlatans!
What else is new? When you are trying to re-make the country in Joe Stalin’s image, the end justifies the means!
Bad news: Death of Deliberated Democracy.
Good news: Deliberated Democracy will be a registered voter for 2012!
I would have no problem with taking the lot of them to court for false (campaign) advertising.
I don’t know why they need to have a conference committee at all. Just give to Rahm Emmanuel and he’ll work out the details. He used to be in the House, so that sort of counts, doesn’t it? After all, its not as if Dems in either body are going to get to read the bill anyway. It’s all about support for His Highness, King Obama.
Hey Chap, what say you about the deliberative process? Are you for Formal or T-shirts and flip-flops?
Like, getting any Republican input, for example?
Agreed.
However, when they ignore the Constitution that they took a formal oath to support, protect and defend; ignore the immigration laws they swore to defend; and overturn special election laws that they put in place previously because the political situation has changed, do not hold your breath thinking they will respect any rules in the House or Senate when they can seize 1/6th of the economy.
No way……. They would sacrifice all of their children for this one.
I don’t think the Democrats, paradoxically, are the least bit interested in democratic process. They think they “rule” America, and clearly don’t give a damn about what Americans want.
I’m holding out for the judicial resolution to this problem. I give up on believing the Congress is anything more than a gathering of self obsessed morons.
When they put into the bill the provision that no future Congress may repeal the law, it made the entire thing obscene.
With all of this legislative junk being crammed down their throats, it appears as though the GOP has lost their gag reflex.
Fortunately, it is not so, here in the blogosphere Republic of Malkin.
Ping ponging happens all the time. And the Constitution only requires that both chambers pass identical bills. Whether that identical bill is achieved through a formal or informal process, the fact of the matter is that both chambers still have to vote on it. There is nothing unconstitutional going on here.
Hypocritical? Perhaps. But the 2006 report that MM cites does not, so far as I can tell from what I’ve read, discuss or condemn ping ponging. It was criticizing Republicans going into conference and waiving rules that are meant to protect the integrity of the bill when it gets back to the House. That is not what is going on here. The ping ponging, for all intents and purposes, creates an entirely new bill individually presented in both chambers. Subject to whatever rules already existing for any other legislation.
ROTFLMAO
The last Republican resistance we got was this…..
Harry: “Hey Mitch, do you mind if we move the final vote up to 8:00 a.m. so we can get out of town before Christmas?”
Mitch: Sure Harry; anything you want.
When the President signs the bill the Republican leaders will probably want one of the ceremonial pens to have as a keepsake.
So this must be one of those “Spirit of the law, letter of the law” things I’ve heard about? Hmmm.
Maybe. I am not saying the Democrats are not definitely being hypocritical. All I am saying is that the context in which they were discussing conferences in the 2006 report is a different situation and I am not certain their conclusions carry over to this one.
But hey, peruse the report yourself. There is plenty of other ripe fodder for hypocrisy in there, including complaining about having very little time to read hundreds of pages in very little time before voting on it.
Flyoverman: FIFY
nail49,
Indeed….
THEN:
NOW:
We must end bickering amongst ourselves. The professional politicians in BOTH PARTIES stink rotten.
Dump the garbage and start fresh.
Reed and Pelosi:
We Won!!
Cretins all!
***
All hands on deck! C**P SANDWICH in sight. They don’t need no steeenking “bipartisanship” for this one.
***
And coming next–C**P AND TAX and SHAMNESTY. Remember–it’s all for the children. Comrade Obama (PBUH) must get it all done before the people wake up and vote out a lot of his “democrat” / liberal / socialist / statist / marxist / communist ilk in Congress.
***
John Bibb
***
Exactly.
Regardless of what happened in the past, you are a leader in the Congress of the U.S. and are not on an elementary school playground.
“Well, ….well… JOHNNY DID IT,” is not a justification for your conduct when you are in charge.
These people make me want to hurl.
Perhaps “Keep Away” or “Hide the Ball” would be the better comparison…
More like…..hide the salami.
IF THIS DOESN’T SHOW THE RINO COUNTRY CLUB SET HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED WHEN YOU ARE IN POWER, THEY ARE TOO STUPID TO BE REPRESENTING ANYONE.
This congress is in an awful hurry to pass this health takover, that isn’t supposed to take effect until 2013. It clearly shows they are interested only in power, not health.
It looks like the attornys general of the various States will have to handle this through the courts. We have a national and constitutional crisis in Congress that cannot be repaired from that side. Pelosi, Reid et al may be immune from personal accountability and prosecution but there are other ways to fix this. If they refuse the rules of representative democracy, the People will be glad to give them an attitude adjustment.
Be sure not to use that expression in a sentence using Barney Frank’s name, although it would illustrate what they are doing to the American people.
I wouldn’t mind if they used this as the ball (once the pin was pulled)!
Of course, Bawney Fwank could also use it when playing “hide the slamai.”
I just washed my hands and I can’t do a thing with them!
“hide the salami”
Sheesh!
Tony Soprano calls it “Racket Ball”
“Rules? We ain’t got no stinkin’ rules!We don’t need no stinkin’ rules! We don’t have to show you any stinkin’ rules!” (Members of Congress to the American People) With apoplogies to the cast of “The Treasure of Sierra Madre”
“Process” isn’t a defect in our system, it is an intentional check against a rogue government. Our system was intentionally designed to squelch passion and railroading.
Storming of the Bastille 2010, or how we got our country back from the elites.
Of course the Dems want to pass this absolute obamination. Our taxes go up for 3 to 4 years before they have to spend the money and the real Obamination gets to pound his chest that the halved he “dafficet” until after the 2012 elections when the bills start coming due and the “dafficet” really sky rockets.
In some ways this may not be all that bad. For one, we don’t have to worry about squishy RINO’s compromising to create bi-partisan legislation. This will lead it to truly being a liberal only bill. Not to mention this may end up being a bill that the far left wont like and will be outraged for being left out of the process.
Great. Not too long ago we were counting on the blue dogs to save us. Now our hopes are with the “liberals.” I predict, as anyone would, the same result. People, this is pure Kabuki. We’re screwed. The Obomunists can and will do anything they want. There is nothing we can do to stop them and those who think 2010 will be a slam dunk for conservatives need to seriously reconsider their position.
I didn’t think I could get any more pessimistic, but I have.
Maybe this has already been covered and I missed it in my haste. But, would doing this allow some kind of court challenge since the framework laid out in the Constitution isn’t being followed?
Yup. Hypocrites.
Then why are you wasting your time and ours commenting here? We’ve been fighting a one-party system that operates behind closed doors that has been at war against voters since at least 2006 and they still haven’t been able to cram shamnesty, cap and trade, and obamacare (which incorporates much of last year’s McCain effort to gut Medi-Care) down our throats. I wonder why that is?
Yeah, there’s nothing we can do about it. Wake up! Or better yet, go hide in the basement with the shrieking women and children and let us cool-headed adults do what has to be done. We’ll let you know when it is safe to come out.
Fascist bastards!
Clearly “representative democracy” is not longer an “operative phrase” so why should “deliberative democracy” be any different.
I swear they are either trying to cause a revolution or so stupid they don’t care if they do…
…And the Republicans are going to take this sitting down?
No, the GOP will do what they have done since Bush, Sr. and bend over…
I just heard Mark Levin call our Congress the “Politburo”. He’s soooo right. Our Congress no longer represents us, the people. It rubber-stamps The One’s agenda. When, oh when, will the Republicans stand up and be counted?!! Where are the Patrick Henrys, the Thomas Jeffersons, the John Jays, the Alexander Hamiltons?!! Thank God for Senator Jim DeMint and Minnesota Representative, Michelle Bachmann. God willing, they, together with all the rest of us freedom-loving, God-fearing Americans, will be able take America back in November.
Cockroaches do not do well in the full light do they?
The socialist coup continues. Utter 10000000% insanity. It is simply treason.
Sounds more like donkey punching the will of the people to me.
Dead.
I really resent the position these corrupt SOBs are putting us in.
I, for one, have absolutely no intention of being forced into this nonsense.
Nothing going on here that a civil war can’t fix! [Please don't ban me for saying this!]
Business as usual for Dims. Circumvent constitutional processes to pass an unconstitutional healthcare bill which will require me (for the first time in my life) to purchase something just because I’m alive, thus denying me my constitutional rights. I’m perfectly happy with my current insurance, but thank you, all knowing government for forcing stupid little ole me to purchase what you deem as better for me. This fight is about to get very real for a whole lot of people once this piece of trash, which isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on gets passed.
Remember way back at the start of all this, one of the first hurdles in the process, when O.Snowe voted for this crap? Oh, it wasn’t a big deal to her because there was such a long way to go. She went along with the Socialist Dems and that helped get us to this point. Olympia Snowe could have slowed this up at the beginning. She didn’t have the spine to say no. She must be kicked out of office.
You get the feeling Democrats are born with brains two sizes too small for their size.
What goes around comes around.
The medicine to cure you will be crammed down your throat by the compassionate.
1) That Oh Snowe! is a vertebrate is to be seen- she is from Maine
2) She is from Maine- the land that considers Susan Collins a Hard Right Conservative.
3) She is from Maine
All of New England should be merged into one state thus reducing them to two Senators.
Fine, as long as it’s not Kerry and Coakley.
What Constitutional process is being circumvented, exactly?
It may be hypocritical. It may not be in the spirit of fair and open debate. It is not unconstitutional.
Is it just me, or would that carry more weight if the GOP had not done it first?
If it were up to me, I wouldn’t even allow the Senate to convene until the House was in recess.
All spending bills are constitutionally required to originate in the House. Having the Senate write them and send them back for a vote, therefore pretending they originated in the House is repulsive to me.
The entire notion of Congress mandating people purchase insurance, even government subsidized insurance, is grossly unconstitutional in its own right.
And special deals for certain states like Nebraska may not pass even the laxest level of scrutiny under Equal Protection.
Of course, trusting a 4-4-1 Supreme Court, where Anthony Kennedy is the tie-breaker and has no core legal philosophy, maybe just a less liberal version of the four Marxists who believe in legislating from the bench, to strike down this abomination is unwise.
Rumor has it Geroge W Bush signed McCain-Feingold because he didn’t want to veto a reform bill and was certain it was unconstitutional and would be struck down.
That was an impeachable offense by Bush, IMHO.
This C-SPAN thing is a big deal. Probably the only thing that could bring pressure to bear on these crooks short of legal action, which will likely happen anyway given the unconstitutionality of the mandates.
Americans have got to press for term limits and a manditory limited and balanced budget based on the GDP. This kind of legislative tyranny can’t be tolerated any longer. We are absolutely going the way of the Roman Empire and I’m sure the landing won’t be any softer this time around.
Reid, Pelosi and the rest of the liberals in Congress are self serving hypocrites.
It’s really that simple.
If Congress gets away with mandated healthcare purchases, the Democrats win. You will then be mandated to stand in lines wrapping around the block to purchase Government Motors cars, Government toilet paper, Government shoes, Government vodka – just like pre-breakup USSR. McCarthy will have been vindicated.
Personally, I hope the Republicans find the courage to stand up and walk out of the State of the Union address.
Your hope is sadly misplaced. The most you can expect from these invertebrates, is a mild slither.
On January 3rd, 2010 at 5:06 pm, ITookTheRedPill said:
I have never been so happy to eat my words!
Thank you, C-SPAN founder and CEO Brian Lamb!
Just one more thing that makes THIS one of the best, most powerful video messages since our Dark Days really got underway.
Meanwhile – as everyone is distracted by Healthcare & the (lack of) response to Terrorism – President Obama works quietly to crumble the very basis of our Deliberative Democracy: US Sovereignty.
If this doesn’t convince the American people that we need to re-cycle this administration and congress, nothing will.I hear that this same corrupt bunch of crooks are planning to do away with State’s voting laws, so they can ensure voting fraud nation wide. If they get away with this, the only way we will be able to get our country back will be revolution.
Another “You Lie!” moment! Thanks to FoxNews:
Oddly, not a word to be found regarding this on either CNN or MSNBC!
Nancy Pelonski responds:
LINK
Does anyone else feel like we’re living in the twilight zone.
I was thinking more along the lines of the Howdy Doody Show!
http://doodyville.com/
Twighlight Zone on The West Wing except Obama’s no Jed Bartlett.